PM&R Employment

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Disciple

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Couple of interesting threads relating to the current state of PM&R Employment Opportunities.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=503152

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=507221


We've made alot of progress over the past 10-15 years and created a niche in surgical groups which previously didn't exist.

I think the next step is to get out from under the thumb of the surgeons.

It will require hard-core marketing to PCPs at the University/academic and community level as well as directly to patients.

We'll need to demonstrate superior or at least equal outcomes, patient satisfaction and decreased healthcare utilization.


What does everybody think?
 
The ideal is for PM&R to be a secondary specialty rather than tertiary. Too often, pt 's go ER -> PCP -> Ortho -> Neuro -> Neurosurg -> Rheum -> PM&R or similar.

PM&R needs to get itself in with the PCP's, ER's and even in industry as the doc to see for most MSK injuries and disorders. If they can see how we can weed out all those that don't need surgery and do things conservatively and in a cost-effective manner, we can rise from bottom-feeders to top-feeders. Unless a patient has an obvious fracture, dislocation, etc, they don't need an orthopod from the start. Ortho's want to do surgery. If they see a non-surgical patient, they could have spent that time with an OR case. They spend more time in OR, we see more patients, everyone is happy.

I would like to see a cost-effectriveness study of PM&R vs ortho for non-surgical cases. I wonder, though, if we PM&R's might not like the results.
 
It has to start inside the training programs.

PCP's learn referral patterns based upon where they trained. If PCPs trained where there was no PM&R service or PM&R was only viewed as a "disposition" service, then graduating physiatrists are at a signficant disadvantage when they finish their training and enter community based practice and private practice.

Most of the niches created have occurred outside of the academic arena. I think that there are few, if any, models of community-based physiatric practice existing in large academic training programs...I could be wrong.
 
It has to start inside the training programs.

PCP's learn referral patterns based upon where they trained. If PCPs trained where there was no PM&R service or PM&R was only viewed as a "disposition" service, then graduating physiatrists are at a signficant disadvantage when they finish their training and enter community based practice and private practice.

Most of the niches created have occurred outside of the academic arena. I think that there are few, if any, models of community-based physiatric practice existing in large academic training programs...I could be wrong.

Yeah,

It seems that most of the progress was made through private practice at the community level, though the academic setting is where the most substantial impact could be made.

I tend to think that successful private practice guys don't really fit in well within the culture of academic Physiatry.

Maybe this could be a new initiative for the AAPMR (or AAP). Establishing a program that would facilitate collaboration between private practicioners and academic Physiatry programs, at the level adjunct professor or clinical instructor, instead of private practice guys having to cold call programs to offer their services.
 
The ideal is for PM&R to be a secondary specialty rather than tertiary. Too often, pt 's go ER -> PCP -> Ortho -> Neuro -> Neurosurg -> Rheum -> PM&R or similar.

PM&R needs to get itself in with the PCP's, ER's and even in industry as the doc to see for most MSK injuries and disorders. If they can see how we can weed out all those that don't need surgery and do things conservatively and in a cost-effective manner, we can rise from bottom-feeders to top-feeders. Unless a patient has an obvious fracture, dislocation, etc, they don't need an orthopod from the start. Ortho's want to do surgery. If they see a non-surgical patient, they could have spent that time with an OR case. They spend more time in OR, we see more patients, everyone is happy.

I would like to see a cost-effectriveness study of PM&R vs ortho for non-surgical cases. I wonder, though, if we PM&R's might not like the results.

I think 2-3 factors I would expect to turn out in our favor would be patient satisfaction, a lower percentage of patients rated with "Permanent Disability" and possibly decreased overall cost (less certain about this factor).

What would be helpful would be the existance of more Physiatrists who can effectively integrate aggressive diagnosis/treatment with holistic, interdisciplinary rehabilitation. There is really no need to separate the two (e.g. spine vs. functional restoration programs), and we look alot more capable/valuable when we can run the whole show.

For us to become recognized as a secondary specialty (vs tertiary) would require us to increase emphasis on the PM in PM&R, as other physicians see rehabilitation as what is done after diagnosis and treatment occurs.

I guess that again goes brings us back to the the AAPMR and our training programs.

Two areas I think we can lead in the next 5-10 years are sports med and Work-Comp. WC premiums are such a huge issue in alot of states right now. Private Occ Med clinics market their services by touting their rate of, and time to return to work. No reason we can't do the same.
 
Two areas I think we can lead in the next 5-10 years are sports med and Work-Comp. WC premiums are such a huge issue in alot of states right now. Private Occ Med clinics market their services by touting their rate of, and time to return to work. No reason we can't do the same.

Definately agree on Sports Med - I don't do much of it, but it is one of the most consumer-driven aspects of our field, if not THE most. Injured athletes demand fast attention, fast rehab and are willing to pay for it - whatever it takes to get back in the game.

WC is harder for us, I think. I see a lot of WC, but again, most it is way down the line. I get guys who've been hurt for 6 - 12 months or more, and I'm the end of the line. Then, when I don't immedaitely say there's nothing wrong with them, go back to work full time, full duty, pt @ MMI, close the case, I'm the bad guy who's keeping the case open, when the problem lies with the PCP who kept the pt on Vicoden for 6 months with 3x/wk PT the whole time, then sent him to a surgeon.

That's why we need to work on getting in on the ground floor - direct referals from inducstry within hours-to-days of injury, instead of weeks-to-months. That'll take a paradigm shift in PM&R as to how you schedule and how you market. Even the chiro's are doing a better job of getting these patients early.
 
WC is harder for us, I think. I see a lot of WC, but again, most it is way down the line. I get guys who've been hurt for 6 - 12 months or more, and I'm the end of the line. Then, when I don't immedaitely say there's nothing wrong with them, go back to work full time, full duty, pt @ MMI, close the case, I'm the bad guy who's keeping the case open, when the problem lies with the PCP who kept the pt on Vicoden for 6 months with 3x/wk PT the whole time, then sent him to a surgeon.

This is such a universal problem...
 
Definately agree on Sports Med - I don't do much of it, but it is one of the most consumer-driven aspects of our field, if not THE most. Injured athletes demand fast attention, fast rehab and are willing to pay for it - whatever it takes to get back in the game.

WC is harder for us, I think. I see a lot of WC, but again, most it is way down the line. I get guys who've been hurt for 6 - 12 months or more, and I'm the end of the line. Then, when I don't immedaitely say there's nothing wrong with them, go back to work full time, full duty, pt @ MMI, close the case, I'm the bad guy who's keeping the case open, when the problem lies with the PCP who kept the pt on Vicoden for 6 months with 3x/wk PT the whole time, then sent him to a surgeon.

That's why we need to work on getting in on the ground floor - direct referals from inducstry within hours-to-days of injury, instead of weeks-to-months. That'll take a paradigm shift in PM&R as to how you schedule and how you market. Even the chiro's are doing a better job of getting these patients early.


In Physiatry, our background is the meat of sports medicine, the neuro-musculoskeletal system. We just need a few years to get our programs accredited/established. After that, I think our influence will start to show a lot more.

For WC, my provider classification with the insurers is “Pain Management” so I’m getting patients around the same time frame as you are (6-12 months after injury and after the initial epidurals and PT sessions are used up) and while this brings me patients to set up for stims/sympathetic RF, etc. it doesn’t give me a chance to see patients whom I can do PM&R MSK stuff on and help get back to work. Many of the other Physiatrists in my area are listed under PM&R, so they see the patients earlier, but usually do so through the Occ Med clinic. So, it’s the same theme, with private insurance we work for the surgeons, for WC we work for Concentra.

I don’t think you can supplant Occ Med docs. Someone still needs to triage and treat other work injuries like environmental exposures. So, I think the best we can do is try to become the preferred provider after this intial point of treatment, say, the first 8-12 sessions of PT.

I’m surprised PASSOR never addressed this issue as one of their projects over the years.
Maybe have a seminar at the academy meeting by a few of the big PM&R IME guys on how to market effectively in the WC arena?

One thing we can do internally is to make certain skills more consistent amongst outpt Physiatrists. Some do functional restoration programs, so do a little bit of injecting and some EMG, a few do a lot of injecting and invasive procedures. As long as there are there are inconsistencies in what a Physiatrist can or can’t do referral sources will have a reason to refer elsewhere.
 
Yeah,

It seems that most of the progress was made through private practice at the community level, though the academic setting is where the most substantial impact could be made.

I tend to think that successful private practice guys don't really fit in well within the culture of academic Physiatry.

Maybe this could be a new initiative for the AAPMR (or AAP). Establishing a program that would facilitate collaboration between private practicioners and academic Physiatry programs, at the level adjunct professor or clinical instructor, instead of private practice guys having to cold call programs to offer their services.

Speaking of which, did anyone happen to read Dr. Cifu's "From the President Column" in the April issue of the AAPMR's newsletter (The Physiatrist) called Academics in the 21st Century: Can We Bridge the Private Practice Divide?

In this piece, Dr. Cifu describes how alot of PM&R research is is conducted by private practicioners or "adjunct" faculty, or even full academic faculty who do mostly clinical work, and whether or not this type of Academia is good for the specialty and causes the field to be dismissed by other specialties.

Anybody have any viewpoints on this?
 
Speaking of which, did anyone happen to read Dr. Cifu's "From the President Column" in the April issue of the AAPMR's newsletter (The Physiatrist) called Academics in the 21st Century: Can We Bridge the Private Practice Divide?

In this piece, Dr. Cifu describes how alot of PM&R research is is conducted by private practicioners or "adjunct" faculty, or even full academic faculty who do mostly clinical work, and whether or not this type of Academia is good for the specialty and causes the field to be dismissed by other specialties.

Anybody have any viewpoints on this?

Gee, Disciple, glad you asked... 😀

I enjoyed the editorial, but I think that Dr. Cifu might have better subtitled it "Asleep at the wheel 1980 to present: How physiatry almost drove itself off the cliff." Bridging the *CULTURAL* divide between academic and community-based physiatrists will require more than just good-will and rhetorical pleas for common ground. It will actually require changing the culture of the specialty.

I argue that since residency training programs and academic physiatry departments are essentially physiatry's version of the "Hollywood Culture-making Machine" in our specialty, this where the bulk of the work will need to occur. So, one may ask, does the leadership in academic physiatry *really* want to change? Do they *want* a bridge to their community-based breathren or are they happy on their own island...are their actions congruent with their words? Afterall, it is revealing that this editorial did not appear in the AAP newsletter.

Come sit on my knee and let me tell you a little story...I interviewed at a very prestigious residency program in a city with a very prestigious group of private-practice/academically-oriented physiatrists practicing nearby who were doing very important research while also in the midst of running their own very profitable business. When I inquired of the university physiatrists how might I, as a resident in their program, network or rotate with this group of "community-based" practitioners, I was met with stern-faces, furrowed-brows, and even a daunting finger-wave. One university physiatrist remarked, "you want nothing to do with them; they are loose cannons."

You must be thinking that this happened circa 1992 or 1998 in the midst of all the tremendous and divisive upheaval that has resulted in the need for our specialty's mythical bridge? No. It was 2002...

So, there is a lot of warm and fuzzy enthusiasm lately about the reintegration of PASSOR which I agree is sorely needed, but I think also some vigorous revisionist history writing is in progress too about "how things came to be the way they are." Some people are getting writer's cramp re-telling the tale of how physiatry became one happy family. Another version of the tale of "how things became the way they are" is recounted in Richard Materson's leading chapter in Slipman et al "Interventional Spine: An Algorithmic Approach." It's a good read. Almost as good as Dr. Cifu's editorial... 🙂

Remember, the founding members of PASSOR (who comprise a large proportion of this coveted group of "academically-oriented/private practice" physiatric demographic who I suppose will be the keystones and cable of Dr. Cifu's bridge) were not uniformly regarded as forward thinking visionaries when they sought to create their "organization within an organization." In fact, in the eyes of many they were seen as renegades, bandits, and even common ****** who were hell-bent on ripping heart and soul out of the specialty and prostituting it on every street corner across the land.

I fear that this "bridge" that physiatry would like to build between its academic and "community-based" practitioners is in reality more of a Bridge to Terabithia---an imaginary place where the practice of academic physiatry and community physiatry converge...If we listen quietly we can hear the hum of harmony...

There are good models to explore. Medical oncology has actually done a very good job of linking its academic oncology departments and community oncology practices. Virtually every medium to large size community-based oncology group participates in industry-sponsored cancer clinical trials. Note that the "driver" here is industry not "good-will."

Anesthesiology and Emergency Medicine with its large national networks of practice management companies and group practices are now competing in markets for contracts at academic centers! So, potentially, you'll have "private practice" attendings working and teaching side-by-side with university physicians at academic health centers...imagine a similar arrangement at *your* physiatry residency program... 🙄

I think that a first step to bridging the cultural divide, will be to eliminate the "blood-lines" in the specialty by uniformly raising the specialty's training standards. Similarly, the content of a physiatry residency program should reflect the knowledge base and skills actually required to excel in either academic practice OR community-based private practice. There is still too much regional variation in where you train in this specialty and this creates abundant misperceptions in the minds of some about your qualifications: Is he a Baylor guy, an RIC gal, a Seattle Grad, a Mayo dude? For anyone who has been around the specialty for a while, these monikers bring certain images to mind...

So, if we are to have a bridge in the specialty, there needs to be a reason for people to cross it. In other words, there needs to be real opportunities to draw people across it. The current state of affairs is such that perceived hurdles and compensation are better outside the academic community in our specialty than inside of it. In recent conversations with recent graduates, it is still the case that most physiatry department chairpersons have a limited understanding of the resources, support, and infrastructure that an interventional MSK physiatrist needs to excel in an academic practice. The academic culture hasn't caught up with private practice culture yet.

So, I'm all for bridges. Let's just not make toll bridges or bridges guarded by angry trolls...
 
Gee, Disciple, glad you asked... 😀

I enjoyed the editorial, but I think that Dr. Cifu might have better subtitled it "Asleep at the wheel 1980 to present: How physiatry almost drove itself off the cliff." Bridging the *CULTURAL* divide between academic and community-based physiatrists will require more than just good-will and rhetorical pleas for common ground. It will actually require changing the culture of the specialty.

I argue that since residency training programs and academic physiatry departments are essentially physiatry's version of the "Hollywood Culture-making Machine" in our specialty, this where the bulk of the work will need to occur. So, one may ask, does the leadership in academic physiatry *really* want to change? Do they *want* a bridge to their community-based breathren or are they happy on their own island...are their actions congruent with their words? Afterall, it is revealing that this editorial did not appear in the AAP newsletter.

Come sit on my knee and let me tell you a little story...I interviewed at a very prestigious residency program in a city with a very prestigious group of private-practice/academically-oriented physiatrists practicing nearby who were doing very important research while also in the midst of running their own very profitable business. When I inquired of the university physiatrists how might I, as a resident in their program, network or rotate with this group of "community-based" practitioners, I was met with stern-faces, furrowed-brows, and even a daunting finger-wave. One university physiatrist remarked, "you want nothing to do with them; they are loose cannons."

You must be thinking that this happened circa 1992 or 1998 in the midst of all the tremendous and divisive upheaval that has resulted in the need for our specialty's mythical bridge? No. It was 2002...

So, there is a lot of warm and fuzzy enthusiasm lately about the reintegration of PASSOR which I agree is sorely needed, but I think also some vigorous revisionist history writing is in progress too about "how things came to be the way they are." Some people are getting writer's cramp re-telling the tale of how physiatry became one happy family. Another version of the tale of "how things became the way they are" is recounted in Richard Materson's leading chapter in Slipman et al "Interventional Spine: An Algorithmic Approach." It's a good read. Almost as good as Dr. Cifu's editorial... 🙂

Remember, the founding members of PASSOR (who comprise a large proportion of this coveted group of "academically-oriented/private practice" physiatric demographic who I suppose will be the keystones and cable of Dr. Cifu's bridge) were not uniformly regarded as forward thinking visionaries when they sought to create their "organization within an organization." In fact, in the eyes of many they were seen as renegades, bandits, and even common ****** who were hell-bent on ripping heart and soul out of the specialty and prostituting it on every street corner across the land.

I fear that this "bridge" that physiatry would like to build between its academic and "community-based" practitioners is in reality more of a Bridge to Terabithia---an imaginary place where the practice of academic physiatry and community physiatry converge...If we listen quietly we can hear the hum of harmony...

There are good models to explore. Medical oncology has actually done a very good job of linking its academic oncology departments and community oncology practices. Virtually every medium to large size community-based oncology group participates in industry-sponsored cancer clinical trials. Note that the "driver" here is industry not "good-will."

Anesthesiology and Emergency Medicine with its large national networks of practice management companies and group practices are now competing in markets for contracts at academic centers! So, potentially, you'll have "private practice" attendings working and teaching side-by-side with university physicians at academic health centers...imagine a similar arrangement at *your* physiatry residency program... 🙄

I think that a first step to bridging the cultural divide, will be to eliminate the "blood-lines" in the specialty by uniformly raising the specialty's training standards. Similarly, the content of a physiatry residency program should reflect the knowledge base and skills actually required to excel in either academic practice OR community-based private practice. There is still too much regional variation in where you train in this specialty and this creates abundant misperceptions in the minds of some about your qualifications: Is he a Baylor guy, an RIC gal, a Seattle Grad, a Mayo dude? For anyone who has been around the specialty for a while, these monikers bring certain images to mind...

So, if we are to have a bridge in the specialty, there needs to be a reason for people to cross it. In other words, there needs to be real opportunities to draw people across it. The current state of affairs is such that perceived hurdles and compensation are better outside the academic community in our specialty than inside of it. In recent conversations with recent graduates, it is still the case that most physiatry department chairpersons have a limited understanding of the resources, support, and infrastructure that an interventional MSK physiatrist needs to excel in an academic practice. The academic culture hasn't caught up with private practice culture yet.

So, I'm all for bridges. Let's just not make toll bridges or bridges guarded by angry trolls...


amen, brotha!!

academic departments are by-in-large so far behind the curve that they cant even see it.
 
"There is still too much regional variation in where you train in this specialty and this creates abundant misperceptions in the minds of some about your qualifications: Is he a Baylor guy, an RIC gal, a Seattle Grad, a Mayo dude? For anyone who has been around the specialty for a while, these monikers bring certain images to mind..."


For all of us who are not in the know, can you explain what these specific examples mean?
 
In not so many words, this means that training in certain aspects of PM&R is great at some institutions and terrible at others, with all shades of gray in between.

Thus, a physician from another specialty may either over or underestimate the skills/knowledge of a Physiatrist he comes into contact with (trained at program X), based on his prior experience/interaction with Physiatrist(s) trained at program Y or Z.

Basically, it makes it look like we are specialists who don't know what we specialize in.

There needs to be more consistency in our core expertise and training. You can't have Physiatrist A who can put a needle into any structure in the body in 5 seconds and Physiatrist B who has trouble with a knee injection.
 
I enjoyed the editorial, but I think that Dr. Cifu might have better subtitled it "Asleep at the wheel 1980 to present: How physiatry almost drove itself off the cliff."

Dr. Cifu was asking for opinions, maybe you should send this to him.:laugh:

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I know this integration thing will take 5-10 years to see how everybody responds, but what I want to know, is whether you think this whole "unity" thing is just us holding hands singing Kumbaya, or if you feel that, realistically, real unity can only be achieved through domination by one side or the other.

Will this be like many examples in history of civil war where there is either separation or victory by one side?

Like the US Congress with partisan politics and very little getting done?
 
Please don’t compare our specialty to Congress…although sometimes I do wonder.

Questions for the attendings – without revealing where you did your residency - did your respective program provide you with the skills (not asking about the knowledge base) necessary to succeed in practice? Not just procedural skills, but physical examination skills, communication skills, documentation/coding skills, practice management skills, medical student/resident teaching skills, grant writing skills, etc? If push came to shove, could you have succeeded in academia if you are currently in private practice, or vice versa? It would be interesting to hear from attendings that have lived on both sides of the tracks.

Now – take a look at some of your residency classmates. I’m assuming they all had the same opportunity to learn the same skills as you did. Do you think they learned the skills necessary to succeed in either academic or private practice, anywhere in the country? If not, is this a negative reflection on the program, or on the individual?
 
Questions for the attendings – without revealing where you did your residency - did your respective program provide you with the skills (not asking about the knowledge base) necessary to succeed in practice? Not just procedural skills, but physical examination skills, communication skills, documentation/coding skills, practice management skills, medical student/resident teaching skills, grant writing skills, etc? If push came to shove, could you have succeeded in academia if you are currently in private practice, or vice versa? It would be interesting to hear from attendings that have lived on both sides of the tracks.

PE skills - yes, communication - yes

Documentation/coding - minimally passing

Practice management - not in the least

Teaching skills - for lecture giving, though some never learned how to give a decent talk/presentation/lecture.

I'd have a hard time in Academia in that I don't deal well with those above me whose agenda differes greatly from mine - i.e. I want to see and treat patients, they want $$$ for the dept to support the Chair's salary.
 
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