PM&R in New York

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Hi Everyone,

I am just finalizing my Rank List for the Match and am really torn between the following 3 programs:

1. NYU
2. Mt. Sinai
3. Columbia/Cornell

I would appreciate any feedback on the perceived strengths/weaknesses of each of the 3. Where are they headed, etc...

Thanks so much...

😕
 
Originally posted by PC:
Hi Everyone,

I am just finalizing my Rank List for the Match and am really torn between the following 3 programs:

1. NYU
2. Mt. Sinai
3. Columbia/Cornell

I would appreciate any feedback on the perceived strengths/weaknesses of each of the 3. Where are they headed, etc...

Thanks so much...

😕
Click to expand...
1. Interviewed at NYU, and the biggest thing that affected my ranking them low was the interaction I had with the residents. I was hard pressed to find one that was happy to be there. And I figured that if I matched there and was unhappy, I would have no one to blame but myself, as I had been well warned. I suppose I wasn't the only one who felt that way. They didn't match all their spots last year. I'm sure they were as shocked as anyone else. Great name. Don't know how much they ride on their laurels. Is it worth getting hammered for to get the name and live in Manhattan(which is where I REALLY wanted to live)...I didn't think so...
2. Mt Sinai- Well I didn't think too much about the program. It was average, with the selling point for me that it was 1) in NYC and 2) Only 3 hospitals you rotated through, minimizing the amount of travel you had to do, yet get all the experiences you needed. In the end, I ranked them lower only because I spoke with a med student at Sinai that was going into PM&R. She basically told me that she wouldn't go there, and I trusted her opinion (too much maybe, I don't know)...
3. Cornell/Columbia- Once again, a rather average program in my opinion with the big draw of being in NYC. I particularly didn't like the fact that you had no elective time, as well as the multiple multiple sites you had to travel too. It would be bad enough that I couldn't afford a car in NYC, how would I get around to all those sites. Most of the residents had "special" set-ups where they could get a car if needed. I wasn't so fortunate. And no one gave me a good answer for how they would deal with this if it wasn't an issue. Besides, I didn't like all those satellite hospitals. A little too spread out for me.
 
I also interviewed at NY Pres/Columbia/Cornell and MT. Sinai. My feelings about Mt. Sinai is that it is a good program if you are a self motivated resident. I felt that it was more inpatient focused with a strong experience in SCI. Besides that, there was nothing that stood out to me except the fact that it's in the city. Col/Cornell's biggest selling points are the affordable upper eastside housing and rotations at HSS. One resident at the interview told me that he was working very long hours at Columbia's inpatient unit. I also did not like the fact that some of the rotations were too spread out where one needs a car for at least 3 months. Probably better for outpatient experience than Mt. Sinai. I've heard about the malignancy at Rusk so I cancelled my interview at NYU. However, I have talked to others who loved it there. Good luck in making your decision.
 
My observations of the programs are very similar. However, I would pick Columbia/Cornell over NYU or Mt. Sinai. I canceled my interview at NYU and didn't even rank Mt. Sinai. The residents and graduates of RUSK have all recommended not going to the program. RUSK has a great reputation, but the residency is another story. I got the feeling that Mt. Sinai's program receives very little financial support and they seem to have problems attracting quality residents.

There will obviously be some growing pains with the combination of the Columbia and Cornell program. However, I feel that with the resources that both have to offer, it will become one of the top programs in the future.

I would rank as follows:

1. Columbia/Cornell
2. I don't know because I canceled my interview at NYU. I would rank a program outside of New York because the next NY program is a very distant second (IMHO).
 
I'm a 4th year med student who most likely will be applying for a PM&R spot...somewhere...

A spot at a good program someone in NYC or nearby would be great. Does anyone have any opinions on programs in the NYC city area? The main points I would be interested in are the quality of the program and how competitive it is...

As a future PM&R doc ( I hope) I need to figure out where to apply for my intern year. I'm presently a med student at emory, and I get the impression that the transitional year program year is pretty brutal. Does anyone know of a good program that doesn't destroy its interns?

Possibly in the NYC area?
 
Actually, TY programs are generally regarded as easier (in terms of hours) and more competitive than prelims in medicine or surgery. I assume your question is really about which programs are the cushiest. 🙂 The TY programs that I liked in NY were as follows:

1. Mt.Sinai - Cabrini
2. NYMC at St. Vincent's Hospital

I can't remember all the details because it's been a long time since I interviewed. However, I remember both programs offering lots of electives and a very kind call schedule. I also interviewed at the Medicine Prelim at NYU - Downtown Hospital. I ranked the program fairly low, but the pay was much higher than the other programs ($50,000 for PGY-1) and they offered a studio for $100-$200 in the Financial District -- not a terrible deal if you're single!

Just outside of NY, I interviewed at the two TYs affiliated with Yale. I thought both programs were pretty good and the hours were pretty decent. Anyway, that's about it for me since I didn't want to be in NY for internship or residency. Both programs in NY are extremely competitive because you are competing with people going into Derm, Rads, EM, etc. Most of them would rather not do a prelim in medicine or surgery too (at least the smart ones 😉 ).

Anyway, most PM&R programs would prefer that you do a Prelim in medicine. However, most of the residents in my program opted to do a TY. Unless you like IM or GS, I would highly recommend trying to get into a TY program. As a prelim in medicine or surgery, you pretty much get integrated into the medicine or surgery service. Therefore, you have more responsibilites and more is expected of you (at least that was the way it was in my program). Also, TY programs generally offer more elective time (I had four months) and this translates into no call that month. With the elective time, I spent two months doing Pain Management and the Rads Interns spent all four months in the Radiology department. Good luck.
 
Agree with Stink. I'm doing a transitional year right now in preparation for PM&R. It's nice having the elective time to rotate on rehab-related services during your internship (pain, ortho, rheum, sports, neuro, etc). Most of the transitional year programs are more competitive to land than a prelim year in medicine or surgery (shutter the thought). I'd recommend a transitional year program over a prelim medicine year any day.
 
Hmm, well obviously I would be better doing a ty than a standard IM or GS....

My only concern is--my grades suck and my board scores on step one were not so great (204/83) so if TY programs are really that competitive, I doubt I would match in anything decent...


So are good TY spots tough to get, really?

Of course, while NYC would be nice I likely will look at PM&R programs all over the country....so if I can find one thats matched with a nice TY program, all the better!
 
I'm interested in PM&R but I have to admit, aside from the name programs I'm still kind of at a loss when thinking about places to apply to...

I don't have a good gpa or a good step one score, so I am not going to be a super competitive applicant...but I would like to go SOMEWHERE...

Ideally I would like to do sports medicine work somewhere, so I guess a program with good Musculoskeletal training would be important..

Any thoughts on the following programs?

Stanford
(any other good programs on the west coast)
U of Wash (seattle)
NYU
Albert Einstein (at LIJ campus)
Mt. Sinai
NYMC St Vincent
 
Go transitional without a doubt. I was given my transitional year when I matched into radiology here in Michigan. Every program has different requirements but here's what I'm doing. 2 months of general IM (q4 call), 1 month of Nephrology (q4 call), 1 month of General Surgery (q4 call). Those are all my call months and are required for the TY. A Family Practice OP month (no call) and Emergency Medicine (no call) month are required as well. This leaves me with 6 elective months. Because of my integration with the radiology program, they require me to do 2 months of Nuclear Medicine in my TY (this leaves an additional 2 elective months my PGY-5 year as we're required to have 6 months of Nucs by the ABR). That leaves 4 real electives which are very heavy on teaching, very low on scut, no call, usually no weekends (maybe 1 or 2 morning on Saturday).

My PGY-1 year is much easier than my 3rd year of medical school and I think it gives people a pretty broad based education and with the electives, you can take rotations that you're interested in or want to learn more about.

At other TY programs I interviewed at, some required Pediatrics and I remember one required 2 months of OB (I didn't rank that program, what am I going to learn delivering babies for 2 months and being on call q4 days as well). I didn't even look into prelim med or surgery programs, but I can't imagine doing a PGY-1 year in prelim surgery and then rads unless you love surgery.

Good luck.
 
On the west coast I think it comes down to three programs: UC Davis, UW Seattle, and Stanford. Of the three, I think that UC Davis is the most musculoskeletally-oriented and UW Seattle is by-far the most inpatient-oriented (they are slowly trying to incorporate more MS, pain, and interventional stuff but are still a far way from Spaulding, Mayo, Michigan, or Kessler.

I rotated at Seattle and have to say that it is a strong program overall with an excellent reputation within PM&R. The residents are busier than at most programs, the inpatient load is heavy, and the amount of general medical issues you are expected to handle as opposed to straight rehab is high. The EMG training is also very solid. However, almost every single Seattle resident that is serious about musculoskeletal medicine does a fellowship after residency usually at Michigan or Mayo. This has been the trend for the last 5 years. The training philosophy of the program is that sports, spine, musculoskeletal, and pain are disciplines best pursued at the fellowship training level and residency should concentrate more on traditional inpatient rehab and electrodiagnostic medicine. This is increasingly being viewed as a minority view within the field.

I did not rotate at Stanford, but have heard that the program suffers from a lack of identity within the institution. PM&R at Stanford, if I remember correctly, is a division of Functional Restoration which is controlled mostly by Ortho. I believe that the training is probably adequate and the biggest bonus is being in the SF Bay Area. Stanford does have some good connections within the spine rehab community (the Saal brothers who invented IDET trained there and are well-known nationally and internationally).

UC Davis is a small program and may lack some exposure to some areas of rehab medicine. However, in comparison to UW and Stanford, I think UC Davis is the most musculoskeletally-oriented of the three. The program is working more and more closely with the anesthesia-based pain program and I think the residents may get some fair exposure to interventional pain procedures.

I can't comment on any programs in southern CA.
 
Yes, I agree that for the most part transitional years are much eaiser because you do basically 4 months-6months of electives and vacation. It is all a trade off. I do six, 4week blocks of medicine (with 1 block of night float), 1 block of surgery, 1 block ER, 4 blocks electives, and 1 block vacation. My electives are sweet 9-5 no call no weekends, the ER is doable I think with 20 - 12 hr shifts, medicine is q4-6 until 9pm with night float 7 days a week (no overnight call), surgery is q4 overnight during the weekdays with post call day off, and we cross-cover sat, sun in four 12hour shifts. It's not the cushiest place though. And some straight medicine programs were more cush than my program, but those programs offer only 1 month of elective time, so everything is a trade off. The patients in my hospital tend to be sicker and more complicated than other cush places I interviewed. Some patients who I believe are borderline ICU candidates do not get transferred at times on the medicine service. In other hospitals they would go straight to the unit... And you can imagine this can cause the patient and the new intern some distress. 😉
 
Does anybody know anything about the program as St. Vincents in Manhattan?

And as in another one of my posts....

does anyone know of any programs that take students outside the match in Manhattan (i.e. Interns wanting to switch)
 
i think that the mount sinai program is the strongest bc it is the only one that is accredited by both spinal cord injury and traumatic brain injury model systems. no other program in new york city is a model systems program, to my knowledge. it makes a difference to train in a program that provides superior clinical care- it trains you to become a better doctor. through clinical mentorship by great clinicians.
 
Mount Sinai is # 1. Model TBI and SCI. Not even RIC has both model systems.

If you are serious about rehab, then Mt Sinai is for you. Ranking of rehab programs in North East area.


1) Mt Sinai
2) Tufts
3) St Vincents
4) U of Penn
5) Kessler- distant 5th
6) Spaulding
7) Albert Einstein
8) LIJ
9) Boston Univ
10) NYU
11) Thomas Jefferson
12) Temple
13) National Rehab
14) Hopkins
15) Sinai in Baltimore

Avoid all rehab programs in Florida.
 
is it just me, or have I missed something? What rehab programs in florida?
 
No, you didn't miss anything. There are no rehab programs in Florida. Although, word on the street is U. Miami is seriously recruiting in hopes of creating a residency program in the near future.
 
Actually, there's a program listed in FREIDA in Tampa/Univ of South Florida. Must be new...

Wes
 
Does anybody have information on the program. What is the area like? What have you heard about the program. ANything would be helpful because I know very little about the program. Thanks
 
Having been a resident at two programs, SCI fellow and attending at Rusk, Columbia, Columbia/Cornell and Mount Sinai(not necessarily in that order), I know the strengths and weaknesses of the NYC programs at a very personal level. These are some of my impressions-I hope they might help someone.

The greatest strength at Columbia/Cornell is the program director, who creates a nurturing environment where young physicians who work hard and want to learn, whether they are female or male, MD or DO, American or foreign grad, are treated as if they are worth educating in the different aspects of rehab medicine.

The greatest strength at Mount Sinai is the clinical mentorship by dedicated attendings whose example will train you to think independently and manage complex medical problems. They also earn their TBI/SCI model systems status with abounding clinical research opportunities in those areas.

The most important thing to do is to follow your heart to a place where you feel comfortable to thrive. Figure out what your priorities are for now and the future. The process never ends, at least for me. I am still trying to figure out what I want to do and I believe that every experience I have had so far has taught me something I needed to learn.
 
PC said:
Hi Everyone,

I am just finalizing my Rank List for the Match and am really torn between the following 3 programs:

1. NYU
2. Mt. Sinai
3. Columbia/Cornell

I would appreciate any feedback on the perceived strengths/weaknesses of each of the 3. Where are they headed, etc...

Thanks so much...

😕
Click to expand...

So its 2009 and I have the same question about these three programs. I'm planning to send in my rank list by the end of next week and having difficulty on ranking these NY programs. Just wanted to get some updated opinions since the original post was made in 2002...things change over 7 years right ? How you would rank these three programs now and why? I'm more interested in the comparison of NYU vs Columbia/Cornell. Thanks
 
So its 2009 and I have the same question about these three programs. I'm planning to send in my rank list by the end of next week and having difficulty on ranking these NY programs. Just wanted to get some updated opinions since the original post was made in 2002...things change over 7 years right ? How you would rank these three programs now and why? I'm more interested in the comparison of NYU vs Columbia/Cornell. Thanks
Click to expand...

Wow...I didn't even know that SDN existed in 2002...

Anyway, I didn't interview at at NYU, but I was very impressed by both Mt. Sinai and Columbia/Cornell. I felt that they compared well to the other strong programs that I interviewed at in the northeast. C/C has the sweet bonus of subsidized housing in a great part of the city and seems to have smoothed out most of the commuting issues written about earlier in this thread. Mt. Sinai was the biggest positive surprise for me during the interview season. I didn't know much about it going in except for hearing they were worked very hard and the PD and another prominent faculty member had left. The new PD (Dr. Hererra) seems great and they have cut the number of inpatient beds that residents cover by half (hired NP/PA's). Both programs obviously have a lot more good things going for them then I have mentioned here, but bottom line, I think you'd get a solid education at either one.....go with your gut.

Regarding the ranking of northeastern programs earlier in this thread....things must have changed a lot in the last 7 years b/c I think most people would agree that it's way off.
 
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Discount said:
Mount Sinai is # 1. Model TBI and SCI. Not even RIC has both model systems.

If you are serious about rehab, then Mt Sinai is for you. Ranking of rehab programs in North East area.


1) Mt Sinai
2) Tufts
3) St Vincents
4) U of Penn
5) Kessler- distant 5th
6) Spaulding
7) Albert Einstein
8) LIJ
9) Boston Univ
10) NYU
11) Thomas Jefferson
12) Temple
13) National Rehab
14) Hopkins
15) Sinai in Baltimore

Avoid all rehab programs in Florida.
Click to expand...
The world is very different in 2009. IMHO:

Kessler and Spaulding are the top programs amongst that list. Temple and Jeff are probably just a hair down from there. Both Sinais and C/C would be in my next tier down, and then the others would be in "the field", if this were a horse race.
 
goodandplenty said:
So its 2009 and I have the same question about these three programs. I'm planning to send in my rank list by the end of next week and having difficulty on ranking these NY programs. Just wanted to get some updated opinions...
Click to expand...
I can’t speak to what things are like at C/C but to sum up the Rusk experience… The entire NYU system is much like NYC itself… big, competitive, and plenty chaotic… it’s paradise to some, but it can be a complete nightmare for others. Our days are busy, and catching us in the hallway will probably result in you getting run over as we scramble to get our work done in a timely fashion. Unfortunately, during the interview day we probably don’t have big grins on our faces as we try to juggle a million things at once, but I can honestly say that I am happy to be at NYU, and I can't see myself being happier anywhere else. I think most of the residents here feel the same way, but those unhappy with our program probably would have been happier at a smaller program in suburbia or in a different specialty all together. I don’t know of anyone wishing they had gone to a different program within Manhattan… except maybe to St. Vincent’s. 🙂

Rusk definitely has it’s quirks, and it’s definitely not a program for everyone, but for certain people it’s the best option in nyc.
 
The big 3 Manhattan programs are so different. If you have a strong interest in SCI or TBI, then I would give Mt. Sinai a huge edge. I always thought that Mt. Sinai was better overall. MSK training is good. In the past, the big 3 programs were inpatient heavy. NYU and Mt. Sinai have cut back on the number of inpatient beds. C/C is a great program. There is a lot of traveling involved as they have so many facilities that you rotate through including Westchester. C/C has the best resident housing in the NYC area "hands-down." NYU is a well-balanced program. The size of the program can be intimidating to some. C/C and Mt. Sinai are also surprisingly large program. Plenty of my classmates have completed residency at each of those programs. All of them have turned out well. In terms of the competitive job market in tghe NYC tri-state area, where you went to residency is totally irrelevant.
 
drusso said:
What are you talking about? Some of us have been here since 1997! Even much earlier if you consider the pre-historic fore-runner of SDN---the Usenet group misc.education.medical
Click to expand...
Did not know that....though I had just finished middle school at the time
 
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Wow, you are a senior citizen of SDN! I guess that would make me middle aged since I joined in 2001.
 
I heard during one interview from another program that two individual attendings at C/C had been going around telling people that they would be the next chairman of the department when their program was hunting around to fill the vacancy. Instead the program brought in someone from outside (Harvard) to fill the void. I was told that these two people may actually be leaving soon. This was denied by an attending at their program, but I do have to wonder if egos were bruised or if they are honestly looking to chair a program. Anyone heard anything further in this matter?
 
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