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Any comments as far as Montefiore, NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital and NYU???

Buster Douglas

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There are a number of threads on this topic. I pulled this quote from another thread that I thought might be helpful.
There have been many posts about NYU vs Columbia/Cornell vs Mt. Sinai over the past few years. The answer almost always is...Kessler. I find that funny. So here's my opnion:

Most of the Manhattan programs are quite similar:
*large, complicated inpatient service with in-house call that usually involves being awake all night
* 3 or more sites
* needs more MSK exposure

I actually believe that Mount Sinai comes out on top because it has been the most dynamic and flexible program, in addition to having a caring and straight-forward PD. Within the past few years, Sinai has added two Sports and Intervential Spine specialists and residents work one-on-one with them. It also has both a model SCI and TBI unit for the more traditionally-geared or the undecided. Sinai also has a relatively generous 4 months of elective which can be taken outside of the institution. C/C has great names and top facilities (Burke, HSS) but is probably the most rigid of all the programs. They do not give any elective time and I got a strong feeling of formality when I interacted with the program. It was on the verge of off-putting. For some, this is not bothersome and access to particular future contacts places C/C at the top of their list. NYU has historically been thought of as malignant but is now geared for change with a new PD. The new PD comes from NYU so time will tell whether this makes a positive impact or not. For most people, NYU would be #3 of this group. This is just my opinion but I really would like to hear what other people think.
NYU, Mt. Sinai, Montefiore, and Presbyterian are all well-established programs at Rehabilitation Departments ranking within the Top 25 in the nation. Residents at all four programs seemed well-rounded and very happy with their experiences. No one program really stands out above the rest. Ranking will likely depend upon where you feel most comfortable training and your own priorities on location, electives, commuting, and call.

Here's a listing of the biggest differences I noticed among the programs:

Gramercy/Murray Hill/East village + Brooklyn (Least amount of travel)
One of the oldest most well-established names in PM&R.
Biggest program (13-14/yr).
3 months of electives.
Limited housing (Range from NY standard to excellent)

Mt. Sinai:
Upper Eastside + Queens
Model TBI and SCI systems.
4 months of electives.
Most residents find their own housing.
Most painful inpatient call.

Cheapest housing.
Plenty of FMG's.
1 month elective.

Upper Eastside + Harlem/Washington Heights + Westchester (Most amount of travel)
Big name hospital affiliates/rotations.
Best housing.
1 month elective.

I've interviewed at all four and rotated at one of the programs. This info is largely based upon what residents have told me at each program. Feel free to correct or add anything I've mentioned, or PM me for more specifics.


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So what he's saying is....go to Kessler.:)
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go to kessler,right easier said than done lol...

anyway to answer the question about the *real NYC
progs though, the programs where
you can escape to lunch across the street at a fresh deli
bagel or pizza shop rather than eating cafeteria food,
the programs that are hospital-attached
rather than isolated campus, etc. the programs with a
broad type of patients from all walks,

as for comparing them on a level of greater detail, the answer is to 2nd look.
things change quickly and you should get an up-to-date impression.
they are all solid as mentioned it just depends where
you feel you are most comfortable.
i didn't find the atmosphere at c-c overly formal at all.
going back for a 2nd look, the residents were
all very friendly at c-c as were the interviewers. what
stood out the most was how c-c residents talked up their
program and were enthusiastic about their research
and experiences. mt. sinai and nyu seemed to have
tougher calls, which is probably what you get for not having to travel resident morale seemed lower.
(eg one large inpatient rather than covering separate
smaller ones.) nyu seemed
unorganized and very large. Still there are still
some great faculty and plenty of interesting patients
there. the rehab staff are excellent and teach
residents nuts and bolts about equipment and they have
an in-house greenhouse and horticulture rehab a great idea for using fine motor skills, with planting etc. which is really cool. Rotations and calls were scheduled
as you go along whereas for cc calls and rotations are laid
out on paper from day 1, no surprises. depends what
your style is.

That said there are probably good opportunities
for fellowship or practice from any of these programs.


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I concur w/hemisphere and his idea about a 2nd look -

MS - research on scutwork.com revealed concerning stories from residents about the call experience. In fact, a few posts stated that they would not choose to go there again. Also, the residents looked tired in person.

CC - seems formal on the surface but upon 2nd look, I think the formal appearance is actually an interview tactic.


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when i 2nd looked cc it was very informal, i just hung around in the call room with residents, talking about anything from where they liked to go out after work to call schedules, etc., attended a lecture which involved significant interactive communication, and followed a few residents on rounds briefly.

I concur w/hemisphere and his idea about a 2nd look -

MS - research on scutwork.com revealed concerning stories from residents about the call experience. In fact, a few posts stated that they would not choose to go there again. Also, the residents looked tired in person.

CC - seems formal on the surface but upon 2nd look, I think the formal appearance is actually an interview tactic.


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Well, I'm too late to help the original poster, but maybe someone else will
read this next year and find it informational.

I'm a PGY2 at NYU-Rusk, which means 1) I won't speak about the other
programs because I don't really know anything about the others, and 2) I've
only just begun here. Nevertheless, maybe I can shed a little light about the
institution where I'm training.

The program at NYU is the oldest one in the country, if I'm not mistaken. So
your alumni network is huge. Lots of program directors around the country
trained at Rusk, or trained *under* someone who graduated from Rusk. Most
PM&R docs are probably no more than 2 degrees of separation from NYU,
maybe a little a more but still way better than Kevin Bacon. When you come
out of NYU in the PM&R world, people know you trained at a stable and
storied program. But that's more about history, not that helpful.

NYU-Rusk apparently acquired a reputation as a malignant residency program
and a place where you don't learn enough technical skill. As recently as
2004 (or maybe even today) many applicants were wary of ranking NYU
too high for fear of ending up in a miserable situation. I'd like to address
some issues here.

This is the state of the program at NYU as I see it today from my PGY2
perch (or ditch, heh heh). NYU is not a malignant program anymore,
whatever it may have been in the recent past. There are more senior
residents who genuinely care about the quality of the education, about the
experience of the first-years, and about the reputation of the program
enough to give feedback and initiate changes to improve the state of things.
Together with a new program director, Alex Moroz, who is young and
energetic and responsive to the residents' concerns, they are helping to
foster an environment that is conducive to learning and a friendly place to
work. It's a work in progress as of now, certainly not perfect, but I see
things as looking up, and it's definitely not malignant.

Some bullet points about NYU in no particular order:

- There *is* subsidized housing, but I hear that preference is given to
out-of-towners and out-of-staters. Apply early, and even native New
Yorkers have a shot at it.

- Call is in-house and overnight, which is better than it sounds at first. I get
5 to 7 hours of sleep at night, and then get to go home the next morning.

- The call rooms at Rusk and Bellevue hospitals suck. There's no way to
sugar-coat it. I don't think it should be a deal-breaker for anyone, but they
really do suck.

- There are (I think) 5 institutions where you do your rotations: Rusk,
Bellevue, HJD (Hospital for Joint Disease), Manhattan VA and Brooklyn VA.
The only one that's not in midtown/lowereastside is obviously the Brooklyn
hospital. The rest are virtually clustered together along the East River.

- Your overall schedule is frontloaded with inpatient and call in the first year
to year-and-a-half. We get the miserable stuff out of the way early, which
makes the PGY2s relatively miserable. My current rotation, I'm doing 4 or 5
calls a month. I've had 6 weeks of clinic time since July. But it gets
drastically better when I hit PGY3 status.

- The food at Bellevue is surprisingly good. The food at Rusk is the worst
cafeteria food I've ever had. Fortunately, we're in midtown, and we're one
of the few departments where residents have the time to leave the
hospital for lunch. It's kinda nice that way.

- Ancillary staff: I came from a medical school and an internship where
ancillary staff was *excellent*, so I'm spoiled rotten. But the ancillary staff
at NYU ranges from passable to frighteningly unreliable. I hear it's the same
all around NYC, but I don't know if that's true. I only know it's bad at NYU.
I also hear it's supposed to be getting better, but who believes that? At
Bellevue, for example, if you need labs drawn stat or blood cultures, you're
drawing it yourself, and then running it down to the lab, too. If you need a
stat radiology study, you may find yourself wheeling the patient down to
radiology yourself. Sound scary to you? I'm just keeping it real for ya.

- On the other hand, the therapists are great. Most of them are very
friendly and like to teach us. We have regularly-scheduled inservice talks
by therapists to school us on what they do and how they do it.

- The resident classes are large (14) and diverse, and the camaraderie is
good. Most of us really like each other. And nobody is weird.

- The facilities are old, and I don't think it's going to change any time soon.
I've heard that's par for NYC, but I'm not sure.

- We have a dedicated cardio-pulmonary rehab service, which is unusual.
We also have pediatric rehabilitation.

- If you want to go for a fellowship, you can. Or so my seniors tell me.

- The teaching is a little spotty but on the upswing. Some attendings love to
teach and really have a lot to share. They range from youthful and
energetic to seasoned and wise. Others are more ... "business-minded",
shall we say. I suppose you can learn some things from them by watching
them, but I try not to pay too much attention to those few.

If I missed anything, or if you just want to know more or talk to someone
who is really in the thick of it here at NYU, please feel free to contact me.


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That is correct. They are more interested in lining
their pockets (can't blame'm, really) than teaching
the residents (a bit shameful, if you ask me). There
are only two or three of those, but unfortunately
for us, they are service directors ... so they set the
tone for those rotations. I'm not naming names, but
those rotations are not very educational. We are
doing everything we can to change it.

Just as an update, it's about 4 months since I posted
the long message above, and I feel the same way
even now as I'm into my PGY-3 year. Things are on
the upswing, and education at Rusk is excellent right
now. Partly due to the attendings, largely due to the
chiefs (past and present), and thanks in large part to
a good incoming class of residents who are inquisitive
and hard-working.


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Wow, that is an excellent definition. Unfortunately you will find this problem everywhere including fellowships


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During residency,

I didn't mind being used to generate revenue, so long as it was through repetition/practice of a usefull skill, i.e. injections/EMG/etc. vs being used to make phone calls, fill out paper work/discharge summaries/prescriptions and other scut.
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