PM&R. . .Wut?

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fingerscrossedpremed

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So, I've looked around on the internet and on the PM&R section of SDN, and I really can't find a good description of what a PM&R doc does (I would have posted this in the PM&R section, but it doesn't look like it gets much attention). I don't understand what a physician would do to help with physical rehabilitation. For example, I imagine a patient having an orthopedic surgery and then needing rehab. The PT would evaluate the patient and configure up various exercises and stretches that would be conducive to healing and learning to use whatever extremity or body part was affected by the surgery. Or am I simply wrong? Where would the PM&R doc come into play? Would he or she simply prescribe medications that some how facilitated the patient's recovery? I do know that PM&R residencies are very DO friendly and PM&R specialists generally have great schedules, but that's about all I know. So can someone clarify for me what an average day as a PM&R physician would look like? Additionally, why are there so many DO PM&R physicians? Does it incorporate OMM? Any knowledge about the field would be cool. I think it'd be awesome to do a PM&R rotation just to see what its all about.
 
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You can do a PM&R rotation if you want.
I don't know a ton about the field but I know they do some procedures, such as injections into joint spaces.
 
So, I've looked around on the internet and on the PM&R section of SDN, and I really can't find a good description of what a PM&R doc does (I would have posted this in the PM&R section, but it doesn't look like it gets much attention). I don't understand what a physician would do to help with physical rehabilitation. For example, I imagine a patient having an orthopedic surgery and then needing rehab. The PT would evaluate the patient and configure up various exercises and stretches that would be conducive to healing and learning to use whatever extremity or body part was affected by the surgery. Or am I simply wrong? Where would the PM&R doc come into play? Would he or she simply prescribe medications that some how facilitated the patient's recovery? I do know that PM&R residencies are very DO friendly and PM&R specialists generally have great schedules, but that's about all I know. So can someone clarify for me what an average day as a PM&R physician would look like? Additionally, why are there so many DO PM&R physicians? Does it incorporate OMM? Any knowledge about the field would be cool. I think it'd be awesome to do a PM&R rotation just to see what its all about.
I don't know much about it, but we had a doc from Columbia, MO come to our school and do a presentation/q&a/workshop sort of deal with the PM&R club at KCOM. It was pretty interesting. I mean, you can be doing anything from helping stroke/spinal cord injury patients with relearning basic tasks like eating and drinking, or helping professional athletes improve their speed or vertical. It's very diverse and you can do a lot of what you want. The doc works very closely with occupational therapists, physical therapists, surgeons, and other fields I can't think of, to bring about the best possible regain of function. His practice varied a lot and he loved that. He said some people stick primarily with sports. Some do primarily the inpatient hospital stuff. There is a lot of room to figure out what you like.

He basically summarized PM&R as taking someone who has lost some function (like not throwing as hard as they used to since an injury) and helping them get it back through stretches, exercises, and other therapies. He said he had taken just about every swim, zumba, yoga, and whatever other fitness class he could find, so he could refer his patients to do exercises they needed that they would enjoy, and tell them first-hand what places were good. The experience was also to help him identify a lot of different ways to strengthen different muscles so if someone had a postural problems that caused chronic back pain, and they wouldn't be caught dead lifting weights, he could send them to do this water aerobics class they might enjoy with some targeted stretching and workouts. I know there was sp,e procedural stuff but I can't really comment on that, as I know nothing about it. He was one of the only DO's in his practice I believe and he said he used OMM a lot. His colleagues even referred their patients to him at times for it.

I may be off base, and I really don't know that much. This is based primarily on one evening.
Also, my friend's older brother is a PM&R doc and he'll tell you it stands for "Plenty of Money and Relaxation"
 
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PM&R is awesome. If you enjoy/ can handle dealing with people who are disabled then it is possibly a great choice. I have a family member who is disabled so I've seen PM&R docs up close for a good portion of my life. It's a very cool and diverse field-- one that I'm personally considering.
 
So, I've looked around on the internet and on the PM&R section of SDN, and I really can't find a good description of what a PM&R doc does (I would have posted this in the PM&R section, but it doesn't look like it gets much attention). I don't understand what a physician would do to help with physical rehabilitation. For example, I imagine a patient having an orthopedic surgery and then needing rehab. The PT would evaluate the patient and configure up various exercises and stretches that would be conducive to healing and learning to use whatever extremity or body part was affected by the surgery. Or am I simply wrong? Where would the PM&R doc come into play? Would he or she simply prescribe medications that some how facilitated the patient's recovery? I do know that PM&R residencies are very DO friendly and PM&R specialists generally have great schedules, but that's about all I know. So can someone clarify for me what an average day as a PM&R physician would look like? Additionally, why are there so many DO PM&R physicians? Does it incorporate OMM? Any knowledge about the field would be cool. I think it'd be awesome to do a PM&R rotation just to see what its all about.
Why don't you ask these questions in the PM&R section? Probably going to get more in-depth responses there.

Maybe @j4pac can lay down some resident knowledge on us.
 
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Pmr always sounded like something I would love..especially the fitness/sport side of it.

Truthfully though, their average salary always seemed a bit low to me. Is this a field you can find a way to make 300k+ in? What are some ways to bolster typical salary while working in PMR?
 
Pmr always sounded like something I would love..especially the fitness/sport side of it.

Truthfully though, their average salary always seemed a bit low to me. Is this a field you can find a way to make 300k+ in? What are some ways to bolster typical salary while working in PMR?
Most PM&R docs seem to enjoy the decent pay for great lifestyle ascept of the field. If you work more you'll make more.

You can make that much money in any field in medicine if you work hard enough. But, I think some thing that draws a lot of people to the field (in my admittedly limited experience) is the lifestyle part of it. So, I'm sure you won't find many physiatrists pulling in 70 hour weeks.
 
Pmr always sounded like something I would love..especially the fitness/sport side of it.

Truthfully though, their average salary always seemed a bit low to me. Is this a field you can find a way to make 300k+ in? What are some ways to bolster typical salary while working in PMR?

The guys who do a pain or spine fellowships (usually 1 year for both) see quite a significant rise in their salaries. As long as the reimbursements don't decline for the pain and spine procedures, then a physiatrist could have a salary of 300k+ after sometime in the field. From what I have read in the PM&R forums, once you have one of these fellowships, the start salary (on average) is around 250K.
 
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So is it safe to say a pmr doc fresh out of residency can bust his or her ass and work their way to 300k a year? Tack on a pain or spine fellowship and a bit more isn't out of reach?

@IslandStyle808 on a side note...where are you headed in august?
 
So is it safe to say a pmr doc fresh out of residency can bust his or her ass and work their way to 300k a year? Tack on a pain or spine fellowship and a bit more isn't out of reach?

@IslandStyle808 on a side note...where are you headed in august?

Waitlisted currently sad to say. Hopefully I get some love soon.
 
Waitlisted currently sad to say. Hopefully I get some love soon.

Hope you hear some good news. I believe we interviewed together at Touro...you seem like a great candidate!
 
Hello I am a PGY-3 soon to be PGY-4 resident in PM&R and I think I can clarify a lot of what is being asked here. It is not uncommon for people, even attendings in other fields to have limited knowledge in what we do, so I am not surprised most people on here aren't really sure. The field is actually very broad and can be tailored a lot towards what your preferences are. What we really do is deal with diagnosing and managing the chronic medical complications from some form of disabling injury such as Spinal Cord Injuries, Brain Injuries, Strokes, MSK/Pain issues, Spasticity, Peds Issues(CP, Spina Bifida and others) and on the inpatient side would also do some more general debility rehab. Many of these pt populations can have significant complications such as spasticity, bowel/bladder dysfunction, neurocognitive deficits, agitation issues (TBI/CVA) that a lot of people from other fields aren't very good at managing and by taking care of these issues we are able to help our patients continue to lead their lives as functional/Independent as possible. This can be done on the inpatient side, outpatient side or a combination of both. There is also a significant MSK influence in our training and most grads should leave residency pretty comfortable with all kinds of Joint injections and management/Diagnosis of MSK issues. Some of us will go on to do Interventional Spine or Pain Medicine fellowships where you learn to do higher level procedures like Epidurals, RFA, Facet joint injections, Verteberoplasty/Kyphoplasty and sometimes even pain pump and spinal cord stimulator placement. Also, we all have to learn EMG's where we shock various nerves and needle certain muscles to try and diagnose or rate in severity various conditions that may not be clear based on exam or imaging. Ultimately there is a little something for everyone depending on you interests. Lifestyle as a PM&R resident/attending is usually pretty good as we have a much more predictable schedule as we don't often deal with emergencies. That doesn't mean we don't work hard though and work hours as a Resident vary greatly from program to program. The field is extremely DO friendly and you will find them at all/virtually all of the top programs in the US. I think there are so many DO's in PM&R because it is a natural fit by what we are taught as students to look at functional issues so many people gravitate that way. OMM may be taught if you are at an allopathic program, but that is largely dependent on faculty make up as well as how much time you are given to see patient's. If there are no DO's, or you are seeing patients in a crunched time period, you probably won't use much of it. OCGME programs probably have more emphasis on it though, but I am at an ACGME program with few DO faculty so I don't use OMM ever. Income also varies a lot depending on location and practice style (PP vs. employed vs academic) and while I think the current average is above primary care, it is not by a lot. However, I know people who make in the low 200's and they are working a lot less than do many PCP's I know and with way less headache. So while they might not be killing it in the bank, their lifestyle is probably as good as it gets in medicine. Other people who want to work real hard can easily make 300 plus, especially if you do an Interventional Spine or Pain Fellowship. There are people who do inpatient though and make more than those who do Spine stuff, but they are really working for it. I think if you were able to look at the per hour pay, we probably make close to what many other higher paying specialties besides what ER probably makes. Remember, while you see Orthopedic Surgeons making way more money on average, they also work a lot more hours and have to deal with a lot of other things such as ER call, Post op complications, Etc that we are not really dealing with. Also many Inpatient Rehabs now have hospitalists on staff so if there are medically complex patients with non rehab issues they are able to be consulted for co-management which makes your life much better. Let me know if I can answer or explain anything else. Hope this helps.
 
Hello I am a PGY-3 soon to be PGY-4 resident in PM&R and I think I can clarify a lot of what is being asked here. It is not uncommon for people, even attendings in other fields to have limited knowledge in what we do, so I am not surprised most people on here aren't really sure. The field is actually very broad and can be tailored a lot towards what your preferences are. What we really do is deal with diagnosing and managing the chronic medical complications from some form of disabling injury such as Spinal Cord Injuries, Brain Injuries, Strokes, MSK/Pain issues, Spasticity, Peds Issues(CP, Spina Bifida and others) and on the inpatient side would also do some more general debility rehab. Many of these pt populations can have significant complications such as spasticity, bowel/bladder dysfunction, neurocognitive deficits, agitation issues (TBI/CVA) that a lot of people from other fields aren't very good at managing and by taking care of these issues we are able to help our patients continue to lead their lives as functional/Independent as possible. This can be done on the inpatient side, outpatient side or a combination of both. There is also a significant MSK influence in our training and most grads should leave residency pretty comfortable with all kinds of Joint injections and management/Diagnosis of MSK issues. Some of us will go on to do Interventional Spine or Pain Medicine fellowships where you learn to do higher level procedures like Epidurals, RFA, Facet joint injections, Verteberoplasty/Kyphoplasty and sometimes even pain pump and spinal cord stimulator placement. Also, we all have to learn EMG's where we shock various nerves and needle certain muscles to try and diagnose or rate in severity various conditions that may not be clear based on exam or imaging. Ultimately there is a little something for everyone depending on you interests. Lifestyle as a PM&R resident/attending is usually pretty good as we have a much more predictable schedule as we don't often deal with emergencies. That doesn't mean we don't work hard though and work hours as a Resident vary greatly from program to program. The field is extremely DO friendly and you will find them at all/virtually all of the top programs in the US. I think there are so many DO's in PM&R because it is a natural fit by what we are taught as students to look at functional issues so many people gravitate that way. OMM may be taught if you are at an allopathic program, but that is largely dependent on faculty make up as well as how much time you are given to see patient's. If there are no DO's, or you are seeing patients in a crunched time period, you probably won't use much of it. OCGME programs probably have more emphasis on it though, but I am at an ACGME program with few DO faculty so I don't use OMM ever. Income also varies a lot depending on location and practice style (PP vs. employed vs academic) and while I think the current average is above primary care, it is not by a lot. However, I know people who make in the low 200's and they are working a lot less than do many PCP's I know and with way less headache. So while they might not be killing it in the bank, their lifestyle is probably as good as it gets in medicine. Other people who want to work real hard can easily make 300 plus, especially if you do an Interventional Spine or Pain Fellowship. There are people who do inpatient though and make more than those who do Spine stuff, but they are really working for it. I think if you were able to look at the per hour pay, we probably make close to what many other higher paying specialties besides what ER probably makes. Remember, while you see Orthopedic Surgeons making way more money on average, they also work a lot more hours and have to deal with a lot of other things such as ER call, Post op complications, Etc that we are not really dealing with. Also many Inpatient Rehabs now have hospitalists on staff so if there are medically complex patients with non rehab issues they are able to be consulted for co-management which makes your life much better. Let me know if I can answer or explain anything else. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the awesome answer!
 
I'm very interested in PMR also, I always wanted to do something physical involving muscles and mobility. Question for @RM38 , do you ever feel like your just a DPT with more scope of practice?
 
So I have actually run into IM residents that said they thought about PM&R, but didn't do it because they thought DPT's would try and take over kind of like the CRNA vs Anesthesiologist issue. In reality while we work closely with PT's, OT's and SLP's, there is no way in hell the could do our job without going to medical school. Especially on the inpatient side you have to have an in depth understanding of medicine and be able to process differentials on what could be causing certain issues. We do not do the therapy like PT's do, we observe their progress through it and manage the medical issues that come up like neurogenic bowel/bladder, spasticity, etc during their recovery to optimize function. Medical emergencies are not extremely uncommon, and for for example today I diagnosed a pt with acute meningitis as a complication of a traumatic wound and got the pt started on Abx. I don't think anyone here would want a PT trying to figure something like that out and they aren't at all qualified to do it. Same thing with interventional spine, people are going to want the physician to do those procedure, not a PT. I don't want to diminish the effort of our therapists though as I think we have some great one at our program and I am married to one, but they have their place on the rehab team and I have mine. I will alter meds sometimes at their suggesting like baclofen if they are working with a pt and notice their tone to be interfering with therapy, but only if medically appropriate. While PM&R definitely has more a team mentality (especially inpatient) than many other fields do, but there is zero risk of DPT/DOT/SLP taking over.
 
Hello I am a PGY-3 soon to be PGY-4 resident in PM&R and I think I can clarify a lot of what is being asked here. It is not uncommon for people, even attendings in other fields to have limited knowledge in what we do, so I am not surprised most people on here aren't really sure. The field is actually very broad and can be tailored a lot towards what your preferences are. What we really do is deal with diagnosing and managing the chronic medical complications from some form of disabling injury such as Spinal Cord Injuries, Brain Injuries, Strokes, MSK/Pain issues, Spasticity, Peds Issues(CP, Spina Bifida and others) and on the inpatient side would also do some more general debility rehab. Many of these pt populations can have significant complications such as spasticity, bowel/bladder dysfunction, neurocognitive deficits, agitation issues (TBI/CVA) that a lot of people from other fields aren't very good at managing and by taking care of these issues we are able to help our patients continue to lead their lives as functional/Independent as possible. This can be done on the inpatient side, outpatient side or a combination of both. There is also a significant MSK influence in our training and most grads should leave residency pretty comfortable with all kinds of Joint injections and management/Diagnosis of MSK issues. Some of us will go on to do Interventional Spine or Pain Medicine fellowships where you learn to do higher level procedures like Epidurals, RFA, Facet joint injections, Verteberoplasty/Kyphoplasty and sometimes even pain pump and spinal cord stimulator placement. Also, we all have to learn EMG's where we shock various nerves and needle certain muscles to try and diagnose or rate in severity various conditions that may not be clear based on exam or imaging. Ultimately there is a little something for everyone depending on you interests. Lifestyle as a PM&R resident/attending is usually pretty good as we have a much more predictable schedule as we don't often deal with emergencies. That doesn't mean we don't work hard though and work hours as a Resident vary greatly from program to program. The field is extremely DO friendly and you will find them at all/virtually all of the top programs in the US. I think there are so many DO's in PM&R because it is a natural fit by what we are taught as students to look at functional issues so many people gravitate that way. OMM may be taught if you are at an allopathic program, but that is largely dependent on faculty make up as well as how much time you are given to see patient's. If there are no DO's, or you are seeing patients in a crunched time period, you probably won't use much of it. OCGME programs probably have more emphasis on it though, but I am at an ACGME program with few DO faculty so I don't use OMM ever. Income also varies a lot depending on location and practice style (PP vs. employed vs academic) and while I think the current average is above primary care, it is not by a lot. However, I know people who make in the low 200's and they are working a lot less than do many PCP's I know and with way less headache. So while they might not be killing it in the bank, their lifestyle is probably as good as it gets in medicine. Other people who want to work real hard can easily make 300 plus, especially if you do an Interventional Spine or Pain Fellowship. There are people who do inpatient though and make more than those who do Spine stuff, but they are really working for it. I think if you were able to look at the per hour pay, we probably make close to what many other higher paying specialties besides what ER probably makes. Remember, while you see Orthopedic Surgeons making way more money on average, they also work a lot more hours and have to deal with a lot of other things such as ER call, Post op complications, Etc that we are not really dealing with. Also many Inpatient Rehabs now have hospitalists on staff so if there are medically complex patients with non rehab issues they are able to be consulted for co-management which makes your life much better. Let me know if I can answer or explain anything else. Hope this helps.

Excellent summary of the field, I was curious if you could expand on the job market for a PM&R doc. As it is such a small field I am curious as to how limited you will be initially geographically? Are PM&R docs more popular in certain places?
 
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Excellent summary of the field, I was curious if you could expand on the job market for a PM&R doc. As it is such a small field I am curious as to how limited you will be initially geographically? Are PM&R docs more popular in certain places?
Generally speaking, the market is pretty good. Inpatient or mix in/outpatient jobs are everywhere. The only problem you occasionally run into is a lack of referrals if starting your own shop (many docs have no clue what we do). There are plenty of outpatient jobs out there too from practices looking to expand with solid referral bases. The new hot and high paying area is in doing acute/subacute consults....a few grads from our program are killing it doing this.
 
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So, I've looked around on the internet and on the PM&R section of SDN, and I really can't find a good description of what a PM&R doc does (I would have posted this in the PM&R section, but it doesn't look like it gets much attention). I don't understand what a physician would do to help with physical rehabilitation. For example, I imagine a patient having an orthopedic surgery and then needing rehab. The PT would evaluate the patient and configure up various exercises and stretches that would be conducive to healing and learning to use whatever extremity or body part was affected by the surgery. Or am I simply wrong? Where would the PM&R doc come into play? Would he or she simply prescribe medications that some how facilitated the patient's recovery? I do know that PM&R residencies are very DO friendly and PM&R specialists generally have great schedules, but that's about all I know. So can someone clarify for me what an average day as a PM&R physician would look like? Additionally, why are there so many DO PM&R physicians? Does it incorporate OMM? Any knowledge about the field would be cool. I think it'd be awesome to do a PM&R rotation just to see what its all about.
PM&R doctor is a glorified PT. /endthread
 
PM&R doctor is a glorified PT. /endthread
I disagree with your statement. But even if I did agree, being a glorified PT but making at least 2.5 times the "unglorified PT" salary and working similar hours wouldn't be all that bad :naughty:
 
I disagree with your statement. But even if I did agree, being a glorified PT but making at least 2.5 times the "unglorified PT" salary and working similar hours wouldn't be all that bad :naughty:
I disagree with you disagreeing with my statement.
 
the above is clearly a troll.
 
I can answer the subacute/SNF thing as that is also a big trend at my program. Basically as insurances tighten their grip they are becoming less likely to pay for Acute Inpatient Rehab (ARF) and so some people whom previously would have gone to ARFs now go to Subacute/SNF. Also there people with old injuries that still need PM&R involvement or people whom were transferred from ARFs that could benefit from consult. The people that I know that do this kind of work act only as a consultant and typically see their pts about 2x/week. They are usually seeing about 25-35 pts a day which is a lot, but they are usually pretty quick visits and you aren't doing all the primary med management or admitting and discharging people. You make your money by billing by volume and if you are someone whom can stay on task you can make a solid income and be done with work at a very reasonable time. The hours are typically very flexible so some people will have their own clinic on the side or just take half days off if they work longer a different day. Typically you are never on call and do not work weekends which is a pretty good deal. This may be boring to some people because you aren't really dealing with the acuity of issues that you get at the ARFs, but you can make similar or more amount of money with much less hassle.
 
I do know this much in regards to pay...PM&R is ahead of the curve in regards to regenerative therapies. Insurances aren't paying for it. Patients are willing to pay CASH for the chance of making their incurable knee osteoarthritis improve. The science is still young...but I don't think that there is any question that there will be SIGNIFICANT advances in both MSC and PRP treatments for degenerative conditions that surgeons do a very poor job of treating.

It is not uncommon for a single PRP/MSC injection to go for $600+. Wrap your head around that.
 
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