PMR discrimination!

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clubdeac

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So here's a question for you all. Can a pain program refuse to even consider looking at your application because you are a nonanesthesia resident? When asking programs for application material, I had several respond with "we only accept anesthesia residents". Sure, I realize they can accept whomever they want, but deny even reviewing your app b/c you're a non anesthesiologist? With the new ACGME mandates requiring more multidisciplinary pain programs, there's got to be some sort of bylaw against this? Multidisciplinary my ass!😡
 
I would think such behavior would be grounds for a class action lawsuit for violation of ACGME/ABMS rules. Proving it may be difficult unless you have something in writing. If you do, they are screwed.
 
I would think such behavior would be grounds for a class action lawsuit for violation of ACGME/ABMS rules. Proving it may be difficult unless you have something in writing. If you do, they are screwed.

Only if it's a ACGME-accredited program probably.
 
I see no discriminaton. I see selection bias. Stronger programs might only consider anesthesia residents or extremely qualified residents from other specialties. e.g. Texas Tech.
 
I see no discriminaton. I see selection bias. Stronger programs might only consider anesthesia residents or extremely qualified residents from other specialties. e.g. Texas Tech.

If it were all men and they excluded a woman candidate or all whites and they excluded a black candidate.......

The rules are the rules. Happily accept the application, then file in the round can.

Name the program.
 
I agree. Eliminating PMR residents prior to accepting the application is a violation of the ACGME published rules. Such infractions should result in decertification of those programs that fail to follow the rules.
 
I agree. Eliminating PMR residents prior to accepting the application is a violation of the ACGME published rules. Such infractions should result in decertification of those programs that fail to follow the rules.
Could you post a link to those "published rules"?
 
I am unaware they are published on line...however I have seen them referenced by several organizations. It is possible the ASA may have info published, but as I am not a member of the ASA, my resources are limited.
The documents were adopted last year and are being rigidly enforced according to Jim Rathmell...and he stated those out of compliance will be decertified.
 
Contact the ACGME RRC for the sponsoring department of the fellowship (anesthesiology, PM&R, neurology, etc) and let them know what happened. The new Pain Medicine fellowship requirements are clear that *ANY* graduate from an ACGME-accredited residency can apply for a pain fellowship (OB-GYN, Peds, ER, Family Medicine, etc) not just the "Big 3" of Gas, Rehab, and Neuro. That doesn't mean that you'll get a spot, it just means that they have to consider your application and accept or reject you based upon established criteria.

Here's the link for the new Program Requirements for Pain:

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/downloads/RRC_progReq/sh_multiPainPR707.pdf
 
"2. Resident selection
a) The Sponsoring Institution must ensure that its ACGMEaccredited
programs select from among eligible applicants
on the basis of residency program-related criteria such as
their preparedness, ability, aptitude, academic credentials,
communication skills, and personal qualities such as
motivation and integrity. ACGME-accredited programs must
not discriminate with regard to sex, race, age, religion, color,
national origin, disability, or any other applicable legally
protected status."

comes from http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/irc/irc_IRCpr07012007.pdf which is the Institutional Requirements.

The definitions used for each program to decide who to admit are found in:

c) Describe how the institution complies with the Institutional Requirements regarding “Resident Eligibility and Selection” and the development of appropriate criteria for the selection, evaluation, promotion and dismissal of residents in accordance with the Program and Institutional Requirements.

coming from the PIF of http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/downloads/RRC_PIF/PIFs_PostDec102007/540_PainMedicineNew.doc


From Russo's post, the text in the Pain Reqs is simply:

III.
Fellow Appointments
A.
Eligibility Criteria
The program director must comply with the criteria for fellow eligibility as specified in the Institutional Requirements.

The trail that makes programs consider all applicants needs to be pieced together from 3 separate ACGME sources.

Remember, Rathmell and the boys did not bring in an ACGME PD from a PMR program when they decided to change the rules, screw PMR, and make Pain seem mor like an Anes thing. The ACGME has just put a little lipstick on that pig.
 
Contact the ACGME RRC for the sponsoring department of the fellowship (anesthesiology, PM&R, neurology, etc) and let them know what happened. The new Pain Medicine fellowship requirements are clear that *ANY* graduate from an ACGME-accredited residency can apply for a pain fellowship (OB-GYN, Peds, ER, Family Medicine, etc) not just the "Big 3" of Gas, Rehab, and Neuro. That doesn't mean that you'll get a spot, it just means that they have to consider your application and accept or reject you based upon established criteria.

Here's the link for the new Program Requirements for Pain:

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/downloads/RRC_progReq/sh_multiPainPR707.pdf
Subspecialty training in pain medicine shall consist of 12 months of full-time training, beginning after satisfactory completion of a residency program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME).

I see no requirement that they consider all comers, or that they can't limit the field to whoever they see fit - in order for it to be a violation of the rules, there must be a rule they are violating.

Now on the other hand, there may well be an federal constitutional equal protection colorable claim, given that almost all of these institutions function with some form of federal funds (and thus can't hide behind the "we are a private institution" facade).
 
"2. Resident selection
a) The Sponsoring Institution must ensure that its ACGMEaccredited
programs select from among eligible applicants
on the basis of residency program-related criteria such as
their preparedness, ability, aptitude, academic credentials,
communication skills, and personal qualities such as
motivation and integrity. ACGME-accredited programs must
not discriminate with regard to sex, race, age, religion, color,
national origin, disability, or any other applicable legally
protected status.
"

comes from http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/irc/irc_IRCpr07012007.pdf which is the Institutional Requirements.

"I did a PM&R residency" is not a legally protected status
 
There is the "policy" and "politics" of this issue. Lobelsteve may indeed be right on the politics. I only know, from those who sit on the Pain Medicine PD Committee, that the intention of the policy change was to broaden and diversify the field of pain practitioners.

Let's say that you're a OB-GYN with a passion for pelvic pain or pediatrician who wants to dedicate your life to managing pain in children, you have no way of ever becoming ABMS certified in pain and advancing up academic ladders under the "old" system. Ditto for neurologists and thalamic pain and physiatrists and SCI pain. The new multispecialty requirements should fix that.

Programs have to consider all comers and accept or reject them based upon criteria governed by institutional policy. That doesn't mean that there are "set asides" or "quotas" or anything of the sort for applicants of varying "specialties of origin."

Once again, the burden to make sure this system works falls back to our specialty's academic department chairs who, ostensibly, have been intimately involved in making certain that physiatry's role and resources are represented at the table at their local institutions. Another resource for the OP would be contact the PM&R department chair at the institution that has allegedly discriminated againt him or her and ask that chairperson to champion their cause...all politics is local.
 
"I did a PM&R residency" is not a legally protected status

Nope, but it does put you on the endagered species list....

The Institutional requirements are not enough to make programs automatically interview candidates from other fields. However, the faculty must be multidisciplinary and they do need to have a PMR on staff (in name only).

Just so we are all clear: The ACGME does not exist to protect the rights and interests of residents and fellows. The only potential issue I find with the programs not wanting to broaden their horizons is this:

Professionalism
Actions that are:
Respectful and Collaborative
Responsive
Ethical
Fair

Programs that do not admit fellows from PMR are going against the ACGME core competency (as well as their mission, vision, and values statement).

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/about/ab_mission.asp

Pot calling kettle black argument. Read the mission statement. Then look at the values. Your argument is that while the programs not bothering to look outside their narrow scope of pain training are not violating the mission of the ACGME, they are in direct conflict with the values of the ACGME.

I have no joy in this fight at this time. I'm in private practice, not in a fellowship training role, and I am already ABMS/ACGME/ABPMR via ABA subspecialized Board Certified Electrified. Go Grease Lightning
 
Once again, the burden to make sure this system works falls back to our specialty's academic department chairs who, ostensibly, have been intimately involved in making certain that physiatry's role and resources are represented at the table at their local institutions. Another resource for the OP would be contact the PM&R department chair at the institution that has allegedly discriminated againt him or her and ask that chairperson to champion their cause...all politics is local.
Which will undoubtedly endear the applicant to the pain fellowship director oh so much ... NOT (then again, you are already screwed at that point, so quite honestly, it is your best shot)
 
This is great! Thanks for the help. I'm not interested in getting into any of these fellowships . . . it's just ridiculous that they can deny even considering my app. There were 3 that specifically said "sorry, we only accept ACGME trained anesthesiologists" and I've got the emails to prove it! I tried contacting the ACGME but I must've emailed the wrong people b/c they were less than helpful/sympathetic. I will try and get in touch with the anesthesia ACGME RRC and maybe even contact the PMR dept at each institution. I would think each of these programs is calling upon it's respective PMR depts to provide rotations for its pain fellows in agreement with the new guidelines. Thanks for the input and let me know if you think I should do anything else.
 
This is great! Thanks for the help. I'm not interested in getting into any of these fellowships . . . it's just ridiculous that they can deny even considering my app. There were 3 that specifically said "sorry, we only accept ACGME trained anesthesiologists" and I've got the emails to prove it! I tried contacting the ACGME but I must've emailed the wrong people b/c they were less than helpful/sympathetic. I will try and get in touch with the anesthesia ACGME RRC and maybe even contact the PMR dept at each institution. I would think each of these programs is calling upon it's respective PMR depts to provide rotations for its pain fellows in agreement with the new guidelines. Thanks for the input and let me know if you think I should do anything else.
Probably want to get in touch with Paul O'Conner, the PM&R RRC chair - Anesthesia will be less than helpful, as it is not their ox being gored.
 
Probably want to get in touch with Paul O'Conner, the PM&R RRC chair - Anesthesia will be less than helpful, ans it is not their ox being gored.

I have found Paul O'Connor not very helpful for resident related issues. He may have been doing well for me without my knowing it, but the communication between us was never there...

However, I had a wonderful lunch with David Leach at the AMA meeting in Hawaii a few years back. Ahh, the good old days.
 
This is great! Thanks for the help. I'm not interested in getting into any of these fellowships . . . it's just ridiculous that they can deny even considering my app. There were 3 that specifically said "sorry, we only accept ACGME trained anesthesiologists" and I've got the emails to prove it! I tried contacting the ACGME but I must've emailed the wrong people b/c they were less than helpful/sympathetic. I will try and get in touch with the anesthesia ACGME RRC and maybe even contact the PMR dept at each institution. I would think each of these programs is calling upon it's respective PMR depts to provide rotations for its pain fellows in agreement with the new guidelines. Thanks for the input and let me know if you think I should do anything else.

If you wouldn't mind----- you should post your gas-denials so that the other pmr-ers don't bother wasting their time.
 
If you wouldn't mind----- you should post your gas-denials so that the other pmr-ers don't bother wasting their time.


Yeah I'd be happy to

They are in no particular order:

Duke
University of New Mexico
University of Illinois in Chicago

I've heard of several others that wouldn't consider a nonanesthesiologist but these were the ones that blatantly denied even reviewing my app+pissed+
 
I have found Paul O'Connor not very helpful for resident related issues. He may have been doing well for me without my knowing it, but the communication between us was never there...

However, I had a wonderful lunch with David Leach at the AMA meeting in Hawaii a few years back. Ahh, the good old days.

Oh and lobelsteve, how do I get in touch with this David Leach you speak of? I searched the AMA website and can't find any contact info
 
1. Duke

Staff

Winston C.V. Parris, MBBS, DA, FACPM, DABPM
Chief, Division of Pain Management
Professor of Anesthesiology
Office: (919) 684-6736
E-mail: [email protected]

Faculty
Anne Marie Fras, MD
Brain Ginsberg, MB, ChB (Acute Pain Service)
Joel S. Goldberg, MD (Director, Pain Management, Durham VAMC)
Billy K. Huh, MD
David Lindsey, MD (VAMC)
Lesco Rogers, MD
Dianne L. Scott, MD
Allison Taylor, PA-C

Fellows
Shahzad Choudry , MD
Janice Victor, MD

Support Staff
Linda Hockaday
Lynda Zirillo
Stacy Morris

Text from their website:
This multidisciplinary clinic includes clinicians from anesthesiology, neurology, psychiatry, neurosurgery, psychology and physical therapy. The range of services provided includes comprehensive evaluation of pain problems and therapies including medical management, nerve blocks, infusion therapies, evaluation for invasive procedures such as intrathecal pumps and spinal cord stimulators, neuroablative procedures, acupuncture, biofeedback, guided imagery, relaxation techniques, and physical therapy. This truly unique pain program is one of the few successful multidisciplinary pain clinics in the country. The proximity of the clinicians from varying backgrounds with a common interest in pain management has encouraged collaboration in clinical care, research, and teaching.

Selection process text from PDF:
The selection process for fellows includes the completion of a Fellowship Application which is to be substantiated by three letters of recommendation from experts in the field. In addition to the letters of reference the application is to include a current CV and a letter of affirmation stating their interest in the program. Applications are closely reviewed by all the attending
anesthesiologists in the Pain Management Division. Potential candidates are invited to Duke to be interviewed by the Attending physicians in Pain Management. Applicants must meet eligibility specified by the ACGME. Acceptance into the program is based on demonstrated academic qualification, interpersonal skills, and evidence of ability to function in a multidisciplinary setting.

2. UNM
Very little info. Fellowsa relisted in the Anes Dept website, but PM is only listed on the general GME site. Text as follows:
Pain Management Fellowship:

A one year fellowship in pain management is offered by the Department of Anesthesiology. Dr. Robert Zuniga is the program director for the fellowship. Dr. Robert Zuniga is also the medical director of the chronic pain clinic. He has extensive experience in diagnosing and treating a wide variety of pain conditions. In particular, he has excelled at many invasive procedures such as regional anesthesia techniques, dorsal column stimulators, intrathecal medication pumps, and kyphoplasties. Acute pain management experience is also part of the curriculum. Candidates interested in applying for this fellowship should contact Dr. Zuniga through the Department of Anesthesiology’s main office phone number: 505-272-2610.


3. U Ill Chicago
1 webpage, application page is separate and does not list any exclusions.
Text as follows'
Pain Fellowship Program

Friedl Pantle-Fisher, MD
Director and Associate Professor

The Pain Medicine Center at the University of Chicago Medical Center (UCMC) is a pain program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) since 1996. Each accreditation cycle was for 5 years unconditionally. It provides two (2) fellowship positions per year.

The fellowship program consists of a twelve (12) month program at the Pain Medicine Center of the University of Chicago Medical Center. The fellowship program is designed to provide intensive training in the evaluation and treatment of patients with chronic pain of benign and malignant etiology, and in the differential diagnosis of chronic pain states. Emphasis is placed on multidisciplinary approaches to pain management in outpatient, in-patient, as well as intensive care settings. Our environment of care includes consultation with other specialties ( e.g. General Surgery, Pediatrics and Pediatric Surgery, General Medicine, Hematology/ Oncology, OB/GYN, Neurosurgery, Orthopedics, Neurology, Radiology, Physical Therapy, Occupational and Rehabilitation Medicine, Psychology and Behavioral Medicine) as needed to best meet the needs of pain patients.

The program provides rotation through specialties, such as Neurology, Radiology, Physiatry and Rehabilitation Medicine, Psychiatry, Oncology and Palliative Care, as required by the new ACGME requirements for fellowship education starting in July, 2007.

Each fellow has special responsibilities in the In-House Pain Management Consult Service at the University of Chicago Medical Center. Fellows provide care to postoperative surgical patients and chronic pain patients (weekends and overnight coverage, calls are taken from home during the night), as well as teach and guide the CA-1, CA-2 and CA-3 residents and students rotating through the Pain Medicine Center.

Intensive Care Medicine is an important part of the curriculum in regard to the postoperative management of surgical patients (no PCA coverage for routine post-surgical patients), as well as the management of chronic cancer patients. Principles and techniques of acute postoperative pain management, especially of patients requiring an intensive care environment, are components of the clinical training experience.

Additionally, our curriculum offers fellows familiarity with theory, indication, and practical application of multiple non-invasive and invasive procedures, mostly performed under fluoroscopy guidance for diagnostic and therapeutic purposes in many chronic and acute pain states.

Procedures are performed five days per week under fluoroscopy guidance.

The following procedures are most frequently performed by the fellows during their one-year rotation:

Regional and Central Analgesic Techniques

Trigger point injections
Various joint and bursa injections
Minor and major joint injections
Caudal, lumbar, thoracic and cervical epidural steroid injections
Caudal lysis of epidural adhesions
Peripheral and central somatic nerve and plexus blocks
Diagnostic and neurolytic sympathetic ganglion and plexus blocks
Neurolytic nerve blocks
Tunneled catheter placements into various nerve sheaths
Radiofrequency ablative procedures
Dorsal column stimulator trials
Intra-spinal catheter placements for intrathecal opioid trials
Dorsal column stimulator trial and permanent placement (in conjunction with Neurosurgery)
Intra-spinal catheter placements with implanted infusion systems (in conjunction with Neurosurgery)
Discography
Intradiscal Electro Thermocoagulation (IDET)
Ultrasound-guided procedures are performed as indicated.
Didactics

The fellows have ample time allotted for didactic sessions. Pain Medicine conferences include daily one-hour morning teaching sessions with active trainee participation in the presentation of various pain topics, particularly the management of the chronic pain patient; there are presentations and discussions of newly published articles and journal reviews, as well as monthly morbidity and mortality conferences.

An In-House Consult Service for treatment of in-patients with acute and chronic pain states provides trainees with ample opportunities and significant experience in preparation for the role of a consultant in Pain Medicine and Intensive Care Medicine. Trainees are supervised by faculty members on a daily basis in the Outpatient Pain Medicine Center, as well as during their In-House Acute/Chronic Pain Consultation rotation.

Role of the Pain Management trainee as a consultant to other specialties

The pain medicine trainees will, in preparation for their role as a consultant in pain medicine, gain significant experience in providing consultation under the direction of the pain faculty. The trainee is responsible for evaluation of the patient, communication of their clinical findings, and development of a detailed treatment plan. Additionally, the trainee will perform any necessary diagnostic and therapeutic pain management procedures to complete the patient’s treatment plan.

Role of the Pain Medicine trainee in teaching other residents

The Pain Medicine program provides the trainee with the opportunity to develop skills in clinical care and judgment, as well as to gain broad knowledge and technical skills. This enables the trainee to act as instructor to anesthesia residents rotating through the Pain Medicine Program, teaching patient management and the performance of procedures. The trainee also helps to structure the teaching schedule for the daily one (1) hour teaching sessions, and prepares case presentations of interesting patients that will provide additional outcome learning experiences.

Research Experience

Research is facilitated by an existing, active research program of the UCMC, Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care. While one year of fellowship is often too short to begin an independent research project, there is research space and more than ample equipment available for joining a research project for the devoted trainee.

We expect that fellows during their one year fellowship be involved in active scholarly activities, which will be established and maintained by the faculty, and which includes peer-reviewed publications of original research in a peer-reviewed journal, review articles or chapters in textbooks, as well as publications or presentations of, for example, case reports or clinical series at local, regional, or national professional and scientific society meetings.

Complementary to the above scholarship is the regular participation of the teaching staff in clinical discussions, rounds, journal clubs, and research conferences in a manner that promotes a sprit of inquiry and scholarship.

Call Policies

Fellows will share the coverage for the APS/In-House Consult Service with the CA-I, CA-II and CA-III residents during the night and on weekends and holidays, but in general take four to six (4-6) calls per month.
Calls are taken during the day in-house, and during the night from home.

Fellows trained since the accreditation of the Fellowship Program in 1996:

29 fellows were trained since the accreditation of our Pain Medicine Program in 1996. Most of them continued in academic positions but also in private practices.

FACULTY

A total of five (5) faculty members of the Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care, all board certified in Anesthesiology with a Certificate of Added Qualification in Pain Management by the American Board of Anesthesiology are primarily assigned to the Pain Medicine Center at the University of Chicago Medical Center (UCMC)

The faculty teach, supervise and train fellows on a daily basis, five (5) days per week, in all aspects of acute and chronic pain management, including the intensive care environment

Friedl Pantle-Fisher, M.D.
Director
Pain Medicine Center
Associate Professor
Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care
University of Chicago Medical Center

Gita Rupani, M.D.
Faculty
Pain Medicine Center
Assistant Professor
Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care
University of Chicago Medical Center

Tariq Muslim Malik, M.D.
Faculty
Pain Medicine Center
Assistant Professor
Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care
University of Chicago Medical Center

Magdalena Anitescu, M.D.
Faculty
Pain Medicine Center
Assistant Professor
Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care
University of Chicago Medical Center

Andrea Shashoua, M.D.
Faculty
Pain Medicine Center
Assistant Professor
Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care
University of Chicago Medical Center

STAFF:

Pain Medicine Clinical Nurse Specialist:
Connie Wright, RN, MSN,CNS/APN

Outpatient Pain Clinic Nurses:
Janet Rook, RN, BSN
Joanne Morsovillo, RN
Fran Rice-Pucci, RN
Mae Watkins, RN, BSN

Medical Assistants:
Shconia Johnson
Khanedgia Harris

Administrator:
Connie Wright, RN, MSN,CNS/APN

Pain Clinic Secretaries:
Elizabeth Kadisak
Sue Mullan

Radiology Technicians:
Rotating, Department of Radiology Staff

Applications:

Send letter of intent, curriculum vitae, names, addresses and telephone numbers of three references to:
Friedl Pantle-Fisher, M.D
Pain Medicine Center Director
University of Chicago Medical Center and Clinics
5841 South Maryland Ave, MC9011
Chicago, Illinois 60637
773/702-6347
[email protected]

The University of Chicago is an Equal Opportunity Employer.
 
Oh and lobelsteve, how do I get in touch with this David Leach you speak of? I searched the AMA website and can't find any contact info

He runs the ACGME, but this does not rise to his level. You should contact the ABPMR as they would be the board responsible for issuing your subspecialty certification.

Hey guys, it is just the sound of the door closing on Pain-PMR. Now if all PMR residents wrote a letter to the AAPMR (Joel Press), and the ABPMR (Gary Clark- he sits on the RRC)- you might get your chance.
 
Steve,

I think he meant University of Illinois Chicago.

You posted info about the University of Chicago. By the way, University of Chicago does accept PMR applicants for the past 2-3 years.
 
3. U Ill Chicago
1 webpage, application page is separate and does not list any exclusions.
Text as follows'
Pain Fellowship Program

Friedl Pantle-Fisher, MD
Director and Associate Professor

The Pain Medicine Center at the University of Chicago Medical Center (UCMC) is a pain program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) since 1996. Each accreditation cycle was for 5 years unconditionally. It provides two (2) fellowship positions per year.

University of Illinois Chicago is DIFFERENT from University of Chicago. University fo Chicago has historically taken PM&R residents - as a matter of fact, there is a Loyola PM&R grad and a Schwab grad there.
 
He runs the ACGME, but this does not rise to his level. You should contact the ABPMR as they would be the board responsible for issuing your subspecialty certification.

Hey guys, it is just the sound of the door closing on Pain-PMR. Now if all PMR residents wrote a letter to the AAPMR (Joel Press), and the ABPMR (Gary Clark- he sits on the RRC)- you might get your chance.

AAPM&R president is now Dr. Cifu.
 
Memorial Sloan Kettering has also not historically been willing to entertain applications from non-anesthesiologists
 
I think it is fine if the Anesthesia programs prefer their own. They SHOULD take care of their own first. That is a well functioning family. Most of the PM&R "pain" fellowships do not take non PM&R traditionally.

Regarding the UofI fellowship. I'm pretty sure that they require their pain fellows to do general anesthesia call...so as you can see there is NO incentive for them to bring any nonanesthesia people on board from an economic standpoint.
 
I think it is fine if the Anesthesia programs prefer their own. They SHOULD take care of their own first. That is a well functioning family. Most of the PM&R "pain" fellowships do not take non PM&R traditionally.
Perhaps it WAS fine in the days when there wre PM&R and Anesthesia fellowships at the same institution - now tht that is no longer tha case, it seems entirely unreasonable to bar anyone but your own, given that they need all 4 diciplines to meet ACGME requirements.
 
"2. Resident selection
a) The Sponsoring Institution must ensure that its ACGMEaccredited
programs select from among eligible applicants
on the basis of residency program-related criteria such as
their preparedness, ability, aptitude, academic credentials,
communication skills, and personal qualities such as
motivation and integrity. ACGME-accredited programs must
not discriminate with regard to sex, race, age, religion, color,
national origin, disability, or any other applicable legally
protected status.
"


I interviewed at one anesthesia program for a residency position and I saw separate water fountains and restroom facilities for the token PMR pain fellows. I thought it seemed weird. The PD kept mumbling something about affirmative action and the EEOC.

This is pretty funny... watching a bunch of guys making six figures complaining about not being able to break into a different six figure racket. I'm just going to assume nobody here has actually experienced real discrimination.

By the way, did any of you get the latest issue?

100_years_3.jpg
 
This is pretty funny... watching a bunch of guys making six figures complaining about not being able to break into a different six figure racket. I'm just going to assume nobody here has actually experienced real discrimination.

I am not sure which fellowship position you think makes 6 figures???
Maybe its the mooonshine your drinking!
 
This is pretty funny... watching a bunch of guys making six figures complaining about not being able to break into a different six figure racket. I'm just going to assume nobody here has actually experienced real discrimination.

I am not sure which fellowship position you think makes 6 figures???
Maybe its the mooonshine your drinking!

It was just a light hearted joke to put the whole thing into perspective. By definition anyone applying for a pain fellowship has to have the ability to make six figures and if you follow that logic in the simplest and crudest form they want to swap one six figure career for another. Obviously that's not how we all think about it, but its just sort of funny when you think about the plight of women, African Americans, immigrants, the disabled, etc and use the word discrimination.

I took some liberties for comedic effect because I figured it was only doctors on this thread and they would get the joke... guess I was wrong 🙁.

By the way the median fellowship salary is north of $50,000. That's almost $10,000 over the median household income for the US. And a full $30,000 over the median household income for your brothers in arms African Americans.

I guess what I'm saying is don't expect a million man march.

I'm a medical student and I haven't done an anesthesia or PMR residency, so I have no opinion really about the admissions policies of pain fellowships. But I can say all of medicine is a club. Its a rotten experience from medical school admissions right up to and including weaseling your way into a fellowship.
 
Memorial Sloan Kettering has also not historically been willing to entertain applications from non-anesthesiologists


FYI, 25% of the invited interviewees to MSK/Cornell, were non-Anesthesiologists. Because the interview dates were late this year, the majority of canceled interviews were by these non-Anesthesiologists who had already accepted spots at other places. Yes, there is bias (as it is everywhere in the world), but many of the 14 Attendings at MSK have a strong feeling to want the best MD, rather than a bad Anesthesiologist. Our most significant bias at MSK is trying to ensure more women get into Pain Management- 3 of the 8 fellows this year are women (an over representation of the applicant pool).
 
People have to realize this is not about the money. Both will make a boat load of money. It is about politics on the Anes side as a turf war.

It is about patient care on my side. I am better at diagnosing conditions than my anesthesiologist counterpart. I have been extensively trained in musculoskeletal medicine, he has not. He lacks general understanding of the anatomy, fluoroscopic anatomy, neurophysiology, psychology, kinesiology, etc. DISCLAIMER: This is a sweeping generaliztion and cannot be applied to the individual physician. These are my opinions on the whole of anes vs PMR. Conversely, I am ill equipped (as are all PMR trained folks) to manage emergent airways, my knowledge of pharmacology for spinal and epidural medications is much more limited, my acute pain skills are second rate- compared to anes providers.

Mygoal is to best benefit the patient. Fewest procedures, least amount of steroids, fewest number of pills, fewest office visits, least total cost to the healthcare system to best maximize the function of my patient.

Most of the guys practicing (at least of the ones I have seen) do excessive procedures, allow poorly or untrained indivisuals to do their procedures for them, provide excessive amounts of opioids to patients that are too high risk for diversion/abuse, etc. I think sex for drugs used to be the worst thing, now I think it is drugs for procedures.
 
yeah DD3000, you're comment was less than helpful. Don't appreciate the jokes when you're talking about MY future, thanks. I've started filling out apps for McDonalds. Anyway, for everyone else who cares, I've emailed several folks in the ACGME, ABPM and ABPMR, none of which have been helpful!! What the freak, do I have to sue someone to get help around here?!?!? 🙁
 
It was just a light hearted joke to put the whole thing into perspective. By definition anyone applying for a pain fellowship has to have the ability to make six figures and if you follow that logic in the simplest and crudest form they want to swap one six figure career for another. Obviously that's not how we all think about it, but its just sort of funny when you think about the plight of women, African Americans, immigrants, the disabled, etc and use the word discrimination.

I took some liberties for comedic effect because I figured it was only doctors on this thread and they would get the joke... guess I was wrong 🙁.

By the way the median fellowship salary is north of $50,000. That's almost $10,000 over the median household income for the US. And a full $30,000 over the median household income for your brothers in arms African Americans.

I guess what I'm saying is don't expect a million man march.

I'm a medical student and I haven't done an anesthesia or PMR residency, so I have no opinion really about the admissions policies of pain fellowships. But I can say all of medicine is a club. Its a rotten experience from medical school admissions right up to and including weaseling your way into a fellowship.

Its not about the money, it is everything about discrimination. Just because there are lots of politics/weaseling under our current system doesn't mean we shouldn't stamp it out when we have opportunities to do so. In this case, the proof is actually documented that they will not accept non-anesthesiolgoists. As clear as day and night this is an example of discrimination. Depending on your program, I think you should start with reporting this to your own PM&R program director, who can help you report it to the ACGME. I'm not sure reporting it to the PM&R dept of those institutions would be a good way to go.

The principle of equity and non-discrimination remains the same when applied to MDs from different residencies as with minority or gender discrimination.
 
Here's an example of the help I've received thus far:

ME:

I am a resident in physical medicine and rehabilitation and need to
contact someone in the ACGME office in charge of pain fellowship
accreditation. Can you direct me to the appropriate contact person?
Thank you for your time.


No response

ME: Did you receive my last email?

RESPONSE:

Yes I did - and there are a number of (I believe 8 programs)
multidisciplinary programs that reside in departments of PM&R. I want
to get you that list later today. I need to go into a meeting shortly.
Will try to get it to you.

Please keep in mind that the multidisciplinary requirements only went
into effect in July. We inform all pain program directors that they are
not required to take candidates that they are not able to provide for in
terms of prerequisites other than those specified in the requirements.

A program director has the right to offer fellows the resources
permitted in the institution in which the pain medicine program resides.


ME:

Thank you for the clarification. Just so I understand, even though new
requirements went into effect this July with the purpose of making pain
fellowships more well balanced and multidisciplinary, programs are still
allowed to refuse even reviewing/considering applicants that are not
anesthesiology trained regardless of whether the individual is
eligible to sit for the pain boards i.e. psychiatry, neurology and pm&r?



RESPONSE:

A list of Pain Medicine programs that are housed in PM&R departments:

Loma Linda University
VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System
University of Colorado
Washington Hospital Center
Louisiana State University
Sinai Hospital of Baltimore (Center for PM & R East York)
Harvard Medical School/Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital
Temple University Hospital
Virginia Commonwealth University Healthy System

It would be helpful for me to know what your reception is when you
contact these programs.

ME:

Thank you. I am familiar with all of these programs. The problem is that there are probably 200+ applicants for 20 some spots. I have therefore applied to "anesthesia" pain programs that I believe under the new ACGME guidelines cannot refuse to review applications based on prior residency training, especially those residents eligible to sit for the Pain boards. The new mandates were to develop more comprehensive, multidisciplinary, well-rounded programs. Refusing to review any application other than those of anesthesia residents hardly follows the individual program's and ACGME's purpose and mission statements. In the end, programs are going to accept whomever they want, but they cannot discriminate and refuse applications based on residency training. If you could put in me contact with someone who could address this it would be greatly appeciated.

NO RESPONSE . . . .
 
Loma Linda University - anesthesia program
VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System
University of Colorado
Washington Hospital Center
Louisiana State University - neurology program
Sinai Hospital of Baltimore (Center for PM & R East York)- will not be ACGME accredited in '08 (from what I have heard)
Harvard Medical School/Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital
Temple University Hospital - will not be ACGME accredited in '08 (from what I have heard)
Virginia Commonwealth University Healthy System
 
What does it matter if there are "more women" in pain management? What a waste of time. Get the best candidate period. I don't care if they are a woman or a man. Hey, there are not enough Cham in pain management, better focus on recruiting more Cham!

FYI, 25% of the invited interviewees to MSK/Cornell, were non-Anesthesiologists. Because the interview dates were late this year, the majority of canceled interviews were by these non-Anesthesiologists who had already accepted spots at other places. Yes, there is bias (as it is everywhere in the world), but many of the 14 Attendings at MSK have a strong feeling to want the best MD, rather than a bad Anesthesiologist. Our most significant bias at MSK is trying to ensure more women get into Pain Management- 3 of the 8 fellows this year are women (an over representation of the applicant pool).
 
What does it matter if there are "more women" in pain management? What a waste of time. Get the best candidate period. I don't care if they are a woman or a man. Hey, there are not enough Cham in pain management, better focus on recruiting more Cham!

Do not misunderstand. When equality exists (or it is close), we give a slight preference to a woman from the perspective of the speciality and improving it overall (after all there are more women in Med Schools). This is not a principle that we will use to simply recruit women (or men) for gender's sake as that weakens the speciality. Although last year 3/8 were women, next year's class has only 1/8. Although many very strong female applicant's were interviewed, several applicant's were clearly better (just happened to be male) and decision's were based upon that. So, we are really on the same page. Ultimately, we want best MD, but do feel we must be aware of reality. We would much rather train well any Doc (PMR, Anesthesia, Neurologist, IM, man, woman, etc) than create parallel, competing specialities that do not serve us or our patients well. It's not as simple as taking care of one's own, we are ultimately all colleagues.
 
Please review my post on the ACGME and the mission statement. Read the whole thing on their website. They are not their as the advocate for the resident and fellow. THey are there to ensure that once you get the job, you are given the proper training.
 
What the freak, do I have to sue someone to get help around here?!?!? 🙁

Probably:laugh:

In all seriousness, each program has until their next RRC review to make changes. That could be in 2009 or later, and if put on probation, they would have until the next review cycle (shortened possibly) to correct things.

Regarding complaining to the PM&R organizations, they've got to acutally give a *&!$* if you're going to get anything done that way.

I wouldn't worry too much, I've heard about some things (still rumor at this point) going on in the ABPMR, that if it comes to fruition, could ultimately restore my faith in the organization.
 
yeah DD3000, you're comment was less than helpful. Don't appreciate the jokes when you're talking about MY future, thanks. I've started filling out apps for McDonalds. Anyway, for everyone else who cares, I've emailed several folks in the ACGME, ABPM and ABPMR, none of which have been helpful!! What the freak, do I have to sue someone to get help around here?!?!? 🙁


Whoooaaa big fella!

After reading your post clubdeac I think my levity is exactly what this situation needs. Seriously referencing civil rights legislation and hyperbole about working at McDonalds from doctors?

I don't really know anything about PMR. Is it that $h-ty that someone training in it would equate it with working in fast food? Why did you voluntarily chose to do a residency in a $h-ty field you don't like? Maybe you need to be a bit more introspective and realistic about your career goals.

No fellowship for ANY specialty is guaranteed. You shouldn't assume that just because you do a particular residency that you are going to get your first choice of fellowships.

I'm new to this whole PMR and Pain thing. Did they shut down a bunch of PMR pain fellowships when you were in your PMR residency already? If so that would certainly give you some room to complain.

I'm interested in pain but at the moment I am more interested in OR anesthesia. If I happen to apply for pain and I don't get it I will just go off and be content with my anesthesia job.

I don't want to upset you or belittle you, but don't get yourself so worked up over this. I understand you had your heart set on something and now you are dealing with some disappointment. But I'm sure PMR is not like working at McDonalds and you will find a good job somewhere and forget all about pain in a few years. Its not the end of the world.
 
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