Poke to all PNWU students-practice on fellow classmates? standardized patients?

[jlc112]

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Alright so I have been accepted to PNWU...Hurray!! This has always been my number one choice medical school so I am very excited. I will be entering september of 2011 so class of 2015.

The night before my interview I was able to stay the night with a current student who is a second year. During our conversations he informed me of performing both male and female pelvic exams and breast exams on fellow classmates!! 😡 This struck me as very odd and inappropriate. 😱 All the other medical schools I have interviewed at use standarized patients and you are never allowed to be this invasive/personal with your fellow class mates. so I am asking fellow PNWU students and other DO students if this is uncommon and what your take on it is. I will not be comfortable with doing so on my classmates male or female, what are my options to opt out? I want to know if any of you have EVER had to perform a pelvic or breast exam on your classmate or if you have ever seen your fellow classmates undress, and "learned" by poking and proding in private areas.?

Second I am very excited about learning more hands on manipulation in the OMM room/class, when I shadowed a good friend of mine who is a DO he used these skills often for tight muscles, popping the neck and helping sinus infections. However I also have heard that several students strip down to bra and underwear duing OMM, or boxers and perform the omm on each other in this state. Is that required? Is that common? Does this happen at PNWU? And again what are my options to not participate?

 

[sylvanthus]

Wow, no clue where you are hearing your info, but we don't do pelvic exams on each other. When we do rectal exams we have standardized patients come in to practice on, I imagine it will be the same for pelvics.

Also, in OMM, men generally take their shirts off when needed, while women may strip down to shorts and a sports bra. This is pretty standard everywhere as you need to be able to exam each other. But, the women arent sitting there in panties and a regular bra. So, don't worry about that. Also, the guys don't strip down to boxers, but normally wear scrub pants and if it is necessary, shorts. It really is not that bad and/or ackward. There is no option to opt out of this as full participation is obviously expected. But, were not sitting there naked, so don't worry about it.

 

[sylvanthus]

Ahh edited to add that when this student said "pelvic exams" he probably meant that we diagnose pelvic bone dysfunctions on each other which is true and is done everywhere. But, it is not the "pelvic" exams that women think of such as using speculums.

Kk hope that made sense.

 

[jlc112]

Do you go to PNWU? IF you do I have more questions for you. Do you know what the response would be (from the school or teacher) if you had religious reasons to not remove any article of clothing, including the shirt? Is it possible to complete OMM requirements without ever removing your shirt. I know you can take vitals and all that without ever removing clothing and I imagine most manipulations can be done with clothes on, infact I have never been in a practice where the patients take even their shirts off, so is that student preference?

Oh and I asked the school specifically if they do breast exams on fellow classmates instead of standardized and she confirmed that they do......weird

 

[Limvostov]

Do you go to PNWU? IF you do I have more questions for you. Do you know what the response would be (from the school or teacher) if you had religious reasons to not remove any article of clothing, including the shirt? Is it possible to complete OMM requirements without ever removing your shirt. I know you can take vitals and all that without ever removing clothing and I imagine most manipulations can be done with clothes on, infact I have never been in a practice where the patients take even their shirts off, so is that student preference?

Oh and I asked the school specifically if they do breast exams on fellow classmates instead of standardized and she confirmed that they do......weird

I think you're just going to have to realize that you aren't special and you're going to be treated like everyone else. They get upset if you use the steth over clothing. Just get used to the idea of touching and being touched. You need to learn and so does everyone else so it only makes good sense that your lab partner would be your "patient" for the lab.

Also, you don't want to be the student with an "issue". Its best to just blend in and jump the hoops. If you have a real medical reason for not doing something then I would talk about it with the professor in private. The only thing you want to stand out is your professionalism and "positive attitude".

 

[sylvanthus]

Do you go to PNWU? IF you do I have more questions for you. Do you know what the response would be (from the school or teacher) if you had religious reasons to not remove any article of clothing, including the shirt? Is it possible to complete OMM requirements without ever removing your shirt. I know you can take vitals and all that without ever removing clothing and I imagine most manipulations can be done with clothes on, infact I have never been in a practice where the patients take even their shirts off, so is that student preference?

Oh and I asked the school specifically if they do breast exams on fellow classmates instead of standardized and she confirmed that they do......weird

Yes, I go to PNWU. No we do not do breast exams on each other.

 

[Roberie]

Do you go to PNWU? IF you do I have more questions for you. Do you know what the response would be (from the school or teacher) if you had religious reasons to not remove any article of clothing, including the shirt? Is it possible to complete OMM requirements without ever removing your shirt. I know you can take vitals and all that without ever removing clothing and I imagine most manipulations can be done with clothes on, infact I have never been in a practice where the patients take even their shirts off, so is that student preference?

I think you'll run into some resistance if you refuse to wear lab attire. I doubt the professors would allow that. To be honest, I also think you run a greater risk of being ostracized by your classmates, simply because they hate being your OPP partner.

Truly, as of yet we haven't done anything that's outside my comfort zone and I'm not a real "touchy feely" sort of person (though I am a guy, so maybe my idea of comfort is different from a woman's). It all may seem awkward at first, but you'll quickly focus your mind toward learning.

 

[dermpathdoc]

Do you go to PNWU? IF you do I have more questions for you. Do you know what the response would be (from the school or teacher) if you had religious reasons to not remove any article of clothing, including the shirt? Is it possible to complete OMM requirements without ever removing your shirt. I know you can take vitals and all that without ever removing clothing and I imagine most manipulations can be done with clothes on, infact I have never been in a practice where the patients take even their shirts off, so is that student preference?

Oh and I asked the school specifically if they do breast exams on fellow classmates instead of standardized and she confirmed that they do......weird

The question here is WHAT religion will not allow you to remove a piece of clothing. I can understand the ha-jib for female Muslims and I know certain restrictions for other religions. You must make sure that you work with Student front office when you are accepted to let them know of any religious restrictions so the issue can be brought to attention of your instructors. I think you were poorly served by the person you first talked to and were either misinformed or perhaps you did not quite understand the information given you. PNWU does not discriminate on any basis for any reason...including religious standing. I do know in first year class in OMM we sometimes have students who misunderstand the wear comfortable clothing and might try to bare-all...but they are quickly brought up to speed on appropriate attire.
PS i find some responses to be remarkably unfeeling. To say you should go with the flow or not be a boat rocker to someone who is understandably concerned about the possibility of doing something he was uncomfortable with...
When I was at DMU in the 80's we had some middle eastern podiatry students who attended our OMT classes. Their response to females working around their pubic region illustrated that they were not assimilated into our culture. Once instructors were alerted to this, the class was split into all female and all male lab partners while the podiatry students were working with our groups.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Do you go to PNWU? IF you do I have more questions for you. Do you know what the response would be (from the school or teacher) if you had religious reasons to not remove any article of clothing, including the shirt? Is it possible to complete OMM requirements without ever removing your shirt. I know you can take vitals and all that without ever removing clothing and I imagine most manipulations can be done with clothes on, infact I have never been in a practice where the patients take even their shirts off, so is that student preference?

Oh and I asked the school specifically if they do breast exams on fellow classmates instead of standardized and she confirmed that they do......weird

Not sure what happens there, but around here the "proper OMM attire" is just considered to be a loose-fitting t-shirt and some sort of athletic pants/shorts/scrub pants. Nobody takes their shirts off during OMM labs (with very rare exceptions), and essentially everything we're taught can be done fully clothed.

Physical diagnosis is a bit different, and I can remember some people taking their shirts off during the auscultation labs to make things easier for their lab partners. However, this wasn't mandatory, and it's certainly possible to auscultate things without people stripping.

Breast and pelvic exams aren't done on other students, either; there are specially trained standardized patients that come in specifically for those labs. It's my understanding that back in the "Dark Ages" of medicine (i.e, pre-1950), some schools indeed had students doing pelvic exams on each other - but those days are long gone. No modern medical school is going to be doing that anymore.

 

[SFO-IST]

while I understand the posts on both sides of this debate, I think some of the responders to the OP are being overly antagonistic to the OP. You don't know what the circumstances are that are compelling her to ask this question. While you bring up valid points, the way you are making them could be more constructive.

On the other hand, to the OP, have you considered that it might be OK with your religion to waive the modesty requirement in this particular case? The skills you learn in the OMM lab will help you diagnose and treat conditions that may save lives. You will be a more effective caregiver if you have experienced what it is like to be the patient. You might want to discuss the situation with your religious leader further....

 

[Limvostov]

The question here is WHAT religion will not allow you to remove a piece of clothing. I can understand the ha-jib for female Muslims and I know certain restrictions for other religions. You must make sure that you work with Student front office when you are accepted to let them know of any religious restrictions so the issue can be brought to attention of your instructors. I think you were poorly served by the person you first talked to and were either misinformed or perhaps you did not quite understand the information given you. PNWU does not discriminate on any basis for any reason...including religious standing. I do know in first year class in OMM we sometimes have students who misunderstand the wear comfortable clothing and might try to bare-all...but they are quickly brought up to speed on appropriate attire.
PS i find some responses to be remarkably unfeeling. To say you should go with the flow or not be a boat rocker to someone who is understandably concerned about the possibility of doing something he was uncomfortable with...
When I was at DMU in the 80's we had some middle eastern podiatry students who attended our OMT classes. Their response to females working around their pubic region illustrated that they were not assimilated into our culture. Once instructors were alerted to this, the class was split into all female and all male lab partners while the podiatry students were working with our groups.

Not at all trying to be rude, just real. Sorry if I came off that way and after reading what I wrote I can see that I should have worded things better. As far as boat rocking... both classes have addressed some issues that have just "nudged" the boat and I feel that it would have been best to just let the issues go because not much changed, but there was some tension created. There are many things that could be addressed, but sometimes it's good to just make the best of a situation.


To the OP:

Lots of people are uneasy at first about OPP and Clinical Skills as far as removing clothing goes, but it is necessary to do a proper examination when most of what you learn early on is how to look for visual symptoms and landmarks. It will make more sense when you start the lab. I'm sure many techniques can be done with clothes on, but when starting out it is very helpful to feel subtle things with tissue texture and the like with hands on skin.

I do agree that some people show a little more than they need to show at times, but most of the class is pretty conservative.You'll be doing this for a career and it will be good to understand how the tests and treatments feel so that you can recognize when abnormal findings are present. If you have a true issue, I would bring it up with the prof. in private. This way you don't "rock the boat" nearly as much and your concerns will be met as best as possible.

Hope that makes sense, and if it doesn't try calling the school up and see if you can get a sneak peak at what we do in these labs so that you can decided if this is the right school before you drop $50k on a year of tuition.



I'm just glad we don't practice NG tubes on each other 🙂

 

[UofODO]

I'm just glad we don't practice NG tubes on each other 🙂

NG tubes? Why not just go full awake ETTs!

http://vimeo.com/9024311

 

[sylvanthus]

I agree with this, we are pretty much taught from the beginning of medical school that we have to just deal with things as they are and have very little say in things. So, over time, people just become complacent. So, when people say to just not "rock the boat," they are saying this based on the experience that, in general, administration and faculty really do not care all that much about student input. Not bashing the school as this is true pretty much true everywhere. Those who teach, think they know best.

Not at all trying to be rude, just real. Sorry if I came off that way and after reading what I wrote I can see that I should have worded things better. As far as boat rocking... both classes have addressed some issues that have just "nudged" the boat and I feel that it would have been best to just let the issues go because not much changed, but there was some tension created. There are many things that could be addressed, but sometimes it's good to just make the best of a situation.


To the OP:

Lots of people are uneasy at first about OPP and Clinical Skills as far as removing clothing goes, but it is necessary to do a proper examination when most of what you learn early on is how to look for visual symptoms and landmarks. It will make more sense when you start the lab. I'm sure many techniques can be done with clothes on, but when starting out it is very helpful to feel subtle things with tissue texture and the like with hands on skin.

I do agree that some people show a little more than they need to show at times, but most of the class is pretty conservative.You'll be doing this for a career and it will be good to understand how the tests and treatments feel so that you can recognize when abnormal findings are present. If you have a true issue, I would bring it up with the prof. in private. This way you don't "rock the boat" nearly as much and your concerns will be met as best as possible.

Hope that makes sense, and if it doesn't try calling the school up and see if you can get a sneak peak at what we do in these labs so that you can decided if this is the right school before you drop $50k on a year of tuition.



I'm just glad we don't practice NG tubes on each other 🙂