Poll for DO students or graduates; did you.....

[ribsandbbqbeef]

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Just curious...

 

[s42brown]

Who cares. either go study or go relax depending on if you have actually been accepted yet.

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

I care cuz I'm curious. If you don't like the thread, then just don't read it.....

 

[VentdependenT]

You left out applied to and accepted at both and chose allo, or applied and accepted to MD only. I belong to the former group. AOA intern yr, ACGME res.

 

[raptor5]

Here I thought that the poll was referring to DO and md schools not residencies. Sorry for voting if it is the latter case.

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

For those who applied to & was accepted to both, and chose DO over MD, what was the major factor swaying your decision?

The poll is referring to MD & DO schools, not residency programs. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. My bad.

But it would be interesting to find out the same info about residency programs too.

 

[cooldreams]

dewd... i only applied to DO... i jus dont see the point to go to an MD skoo if u dont have to. you learn less, and potentially make less.

sure you could say that statistically it is very hard for DOs to make it to a subspecialty, but look again because there are also a lot fewer number of applicants... DO or MD you stilll gotta bust your butt to get the top positions.

something i liked about DO also was that ratio-wise, a DO is more likely to be religious, and to have strong family values. these two things are numbers one and two on my life priorities... God is first, then family, then friends and then self.

there are just so many reasons to go DO...

gl with your choices...

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

cooldreams, thanks for the input.

DOs learn extra stuff (ie manipulation) in their training, but of all the DO's I've worked with, I've never seen them use manipulation. I even had a DO PMD and asked her if she uses OMM and she said she hasn't used it ever since she graduated from DO school. My question is then, why learn all the extra stuff if so few DO's use it after their training? Why have a different school with different approach if in the end both DO's & MD's practice almost identically?

 

[Maxip]

Originally posted by cooldreams
dewd... i only applied to DO... i jus dont see the point to go to an MD skoo if u dont have to. you learn less, and potentially make less.

So, now you guys have convinced yourselves that MD's LEARN less and MAKE less? What's the weather like in crazy la-la land?

 

[cooldreams]

well i dont know what do's u were hanging around, but the ones i hang around do infact do manip, and that is the reason why they make more. you can bill very nicely for doing that...

sure, MDs can do that, but they wont make money from it cuz no one will come back to them for it if they havent had any training in it. that is an integral part of DO training, so we dont have to go back and get something extra.

so there, i have qualified my statement. and to account for the seeming discrepancy from bbq's post, let me restate what i said "potentially make less"... if a DO is doing the omt then they are gonna make more than a MD in same situation.

"So, now you guys have convinced yourselves that MD's LEARN less and MAKE less? What's the weather like in crazy la-la land?"

gee i hope i havent hurt your feelings for bringing to the surface the fact that as an MD you do infact learn less. if you are looking at the whole subspecialty thing, sure DOs wont typically make more than MDs, they will actually be the same. oh wait, you will tell me that MDs occupy more res spots, well i guess you seem to think that there are the same numbers of DOs applying to all of those res spots as MDs??

simple truth of the matter, DOs ARE catching on. more schools are popping up, more ppl are learning of them and will only go to see them instead of MDs. every year the growth rate far exceeds that of MDs, even with your caribbean diploma mills shooting up.

additionally, the ave DO student is older/wiser than the ave MD student, has family values, and is simply more rooted to the philosopy of helping people. be honest with yourself. why did you choose MD over DO?? let me take a wild guess, because your SO knew what a MD was but not a DO, or your dad thought MDs are nice and dont know about DOs. sounds like good reasons to me......

have a great day!

 

[VentdependenT]

Man I just love how all these threads degenerate!

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by cooldreams
dewd... i only applied to DO... i jus dont see the point to go to an MD skoo if u dont have to. you learn less, and potentially make less.

sure you could say that statistically it is very hard for DOs to make it to a subspecialty, but look again because there are also a lot fewer number of applicants... DO or MD you stilll gotta bust your butt to get the top positions.

something i liked about DO also was that ratio-wise, a DO is more likely to be religious, and to have strong family values. these two things are numbers one and two on my life priorities... God is first, then family, then friends and then self.

there are just so many reasons to go DO...

gl with your choices...

It is great that you are so enthusiastic about your future medical education, but you really should wait until you have started it before you make judgements about the quality of MD vs. DO training. You simply have no idea what you are talking about because you have yet to be a medical student at any school, DO or MD. So, until you are an authority on the matter, stop pissing off our Allopathic colleages.

I don't really understand the anti-MD stance taken by some DO students and DO's, it reeks of insecurity. Is it so hard to be pro-DO without bashing MD's? Perhaps pro-Physician is the best stance........

You just don't see this level stupidity with other professions. Imagine how ridiculous the argument would seem if it were ScD vs. PhD rather than MD vs. DO.

 

[cooldreams]

that is great that you can come in and say that i am completely wrong.

but... what am i wrong about?? i am not trying to exude an anti-md stance. i feel that what i typed was fact, and very much so NOT insecurity.

fact, DOs learn more. (this in reference to OMT, the fact that DOs CAN transfer to MD schools but MDs cannot transfer to DO schools, and DOs can take the COMLEX and USMLE but MDs can only take the USMLE... given light of all of that, i feel it is safe to say that also given the fact that a DO can go on to be in any specialty says to me that DOs obviously learn more in the routine regimen of training as compared to a MDs regular training.)

fact, DOs have the potential to earn more. ( this is primarily in reference to FP docs or other types of docs that chose to use omt. of course if an MD gets additional training to be able to do this, then the pay discrepancy is gone. but in the typical setting, with no additional training, my statement is true.)

fact, the growth rate of DOs is far faster. ( easily proven, but admittely so mostly because so fewer a number of existing DO schools. if there are 100 of type A and it increases by 2 but type B numbers at 10 and increases by 2, then the growth rate of B is much greater than A.)

fact, most MD students go the MD route without ever considering DOs simply because either they or people who have a direct influence on them know nothing about DOs. ( i admit that that is infact how i was at first, mostly because i had never heard of DOs. but now i have and i think the choice is quite obvious.)

fact, DO students on ave are older, more likely to have families, and are more likely to be religious. (any disputes?? this seems to be a pretty recurring theme....)

these make up the foundation for what i have typed here. sure, i have not started yet, and obviously that means that i can never be right, correct????..... but could you please kindly instruct me in what i am wrong about??

thanks in advance!

please observe, i am specifically commenting on MS1-4, not PGY1-? for allopathic vs osteopathic. there is a definite advantage to most allopathic res spots given the sheer number of cases trained on...

 

[LloydDObler]

Originally posted by cooldreams


additionally, the ave DO student is older/wiser than the ave MD student, has family values, and is simply more rooted to the philosopy of helping people. be honest with yourself. why did you choose MD over DO?? let me take a wild guess, because your SO knew what a MD was but not a DO, or your dad thought MDs are nice and dont know about DOs. sounds like good reasons to me......

have a great day!

I just don't know where you are getting this from. We're older and wiser? We're more religious?? Have more family values??? Want to help people more???? What are you basing this on? The people who write on SDN? I find this kind of blanket generalization (which, as Daveyboy pointed out, you actually have no clue about, since you aren't in school yet...) quite offensive. Are you claiming to know the values of allopathic and osteopathic students? It is pretty presumptuous, and completely innaccurate to suggest that we care about patients more, etc...

 

[cooldreams]

presumptuous??? offensive??? for telling the truth???? for stating fact??? what have you guys been reading???????


1) "We're older and wiser?" - The average age of entering osteopathic students has been 26 years, which is higher than the average of those accepted in allopathic medical schools (24 years old). http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~mikeg/medwhere.html

2) "We're more religious??" - The osteopathic physicians who are more committed to osteopathic manipulation tend to be more likely than their colleagues to have a fundamentalist religious orientation. http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/paradox_of_osteopathy.htm

3) "Want to help people more????" - "Any good physician is going to care about someone who is sick," he said. "But there does seem to be this subtlety that the DOs try to get to know more about the patient, not just the thing they're complaining about." http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2003/08/25/prsb0825.htm


this is already an old and boring arguement. i cant believe im argueing this subject matter versus actual DO students rather than MD students... how sad...........

 

[Fenrezz]

Originally posted by cooldreams
this is already an old and boring arguement. i cant believe im argueing this subject matter versus actual DO students rather than MD students... how sad...........

I think the problem is the perceived attitude of superiority. For years osteopaths have claimed that DO's and MD's were equal all the while the allopathic community disregarded them as inferiors.

When you start saying that DO's are better at this, and make more than that etc., you're basically behaving in the same manner that osteopaths have accused the MD's of acting for decades. Those arguments may or may not be true, but they aren't going to convince many people to go the DO route (the idea that someone would choose DO because they would make more money using OMT is amusing, though).

I think it's great to have pride in your profession, God knows I do, but to me it doesn't mean much when you have to start bashing others to feel that pride. In all honesty, I take more comfort in the fact that DO students are willing to argue with you on the subject of DO superiority, rather than have a bunch of them agree with you and start an MD-bashing thread.

 

[cooldreams]

i guess i just dont get it - what have i said that is false?? are you saying that what im typing here is bad because i am wrong or because i shouldnt state fact??

all the points i brought up are well known fact, and you shun me for talking about them.

is it ok to disregard truth in favor of not hurting someones feelings??

there are some real points that MD are better at, such as research and such. this is much of the very focus that many MD schools go towards and i commend them for it. but to ignore the fact that i have presented above in favor of gaining their approval... i mean what are you trying to say?? that we exist because they let us, so dont make waves????

"but to me it doesn't mean much when you have to start bashing others to feel that pride" i guess i didnt feel that im bashing anyone. stating fact is to me not bashing. "So, now you guys have convinced yourselves that MD's LEARN less and MAKE less? What's the weather like in crazy la-la land?" to me sounds like bashing but i guess you guys dont attack him because he IS an md student.

its kinda like religious issues these days. ppl say its ok to believe anything you want to. but the second you start talking about Jesus, everyone jumps all over you for not having religious tolerence. vocalizing fact is not the same as bashing. if you are emotionally sensitive to that particular fact, then i can see how you would take it as bashing, but that was not my intent.

i feel i have sufficiently stood my ground and backed up what i have said. if you want to give a different side, dont just say that im bashing or that im a pathetic pre-med because neither arguement holds any ground.

 

[dochuffman]

As I saw on another post, cooldreams... step away from the bong! Doing OMT is not going to make you more money. I don't think that the amount of time it takes you to REALLY do an OMT treatment will end up making you money. You could make more seeing another patient or performing sigmoidoscopy or other procerdures. If one does OMT it should be because they believe in it and want to help the patient. As far as generalizing the fact that D.O.s are more religious or care about patients more is B.S. There are great compassionate M.D.s and D.O.s and there are bad ones as well.

Why do threads like this always pop up. They are a breeding ground for ignorance and prejudice. I very much agree that his post is like "reverse racism." Why don't people just shut up, be secure about their profession and practice medicine. Who benefits from thses things? Certainly not the patient. Lets focus are energy on more productive things. From your local, proud to be D.O.

This thread is dead.

 

[Maxip]

Just quickly; I'm very happy to see the response of some of the other DO's out there. Its nice to see that there is a good number of DOs who understand that NEITHER degree is inherently better, there's only doctors.

I feel the need to respond to these threads (and they admittedly piss me off) because I HATE reactive stereotyping like this.

Anyways, bravo to you DO's who bear no chip on your shoulder and value your education and talents for what they are. See you in the hospitals in a couple years...

 

[bigmuny]

Originally posted by cooldreams
that is great that you can come in and say that i am completely wrong.

but... what am i wrong about?? i am not trying to exude an anti-md stance. i feel that what i typed was fact, and very much so NOT insecurity.

fact, DOs learn more. (this in reference to OMT, the fact that DOs CAN transfer to MD schools but MDs cannot transfer to DO schools, and DOs can take the COMLEX and USMLE but MDs can only take the USMLE... given light of all of that, i feel it is safe to say that also given the fact that a DO can go on to be in any specialty says to me that DOs obviously learn more in the routine regimen of training as compared to a MDs regular training.)

fact, DOs have the potential to earn more. ( this is primarily in reference to FP docs or other types of docs that chose to use omt. of course if an MD gets additional training to be able to do this, then the pay discrepancy is gone. but in the typical setting, with no additional training, my statement is true.)

fact, the growth rate of DOs is far faster. ( easily proven, but admittely so mostly because so fewer a number of existing DO schools. if there are 100 of type A and it increases by 2 but type B numbers at 10 and increases by 2, then the growth rate of B is much greater than A.)

fact, most MD students go the MD route without ever considering DOs simply because either they or people who have a direct influence on them know nothing about DOs. ( i admit that that is infact how i was at first, mostly because i had never heard of DOs. but now i have and i think the choice is quite obvious.)

fact, DO students on ave are older, more likely to have families, and are more likely to be religious. (any disputes?? this seems to be a pretty recurring theme....)

these make up the foundation for what i have typed here. sure, i have not started yet, and obviously that means that i can never be right, correct????..... but could you please kindly instruct me in what i am wrong about??

thanks in advance!

please observe, i am specifically commenting on MS1-4, not PGY1-? for allopathic vs osteopathic. there is a definite advantage to most allopathic res spots given the sheer number of cases trained on...

While it is true that we learn OMT, it can be argued that we learn it at the expense of a more rigorous basic science education. I have compared my course work(do) to a friend of mine(md) and while basically the same, they do go into some stuff more in depth(biostat, biochem, micro lab, cell bio, genetics). We learn what needs to be learned however. Making more money with OMT? Untrue statement. Reimbursement for OMT is not great, and it is time consuming to do it right(a few of the reasons few DOs use it). You can do nicely with OMT if you have a boutique practice, are well known, and take cash customers only, but these people a few and far between. DOs are growing fast, and this is viewed by many in the profession(though premeds think it is great) as a negative thing for the profession. I'm not sure what your point was with this statement in the first place however. I don't know why, for a fact, most premeds choose MD, and nor do you unless you can produce a study. However, it is likely due to the fact that the MD degree is percieved to be the gold standard in medical education by most premeds(even those who know the difference). This is changing, but as a profession we do a lot to reinforce this perception(i.e. weak clinical education, little or no research, poor post grad training, ect.). DO schools do tend to have more non-trad students, that is correct(and so what). DO are more likely to have families? I don't know where you got this from, but I'd like you to find me study that shows DOs tend to marry and breed more than MDs. That is just a silly comment. DOs are more religous? Again this is a silly comment and not true. It may be true(from the link you posted) that there are a lot of fundamentalist christians who are OMT specialists, but the number of OMT specialists within the profession is miniscule. I would guess that we are no different from MDs in this regard or the rest of society in general. It would be interesting to see if there is a corellation between OMT use and religiosity however(I bet there is), and to look at the reasons for it. I want to be treated with respect by all physicians(md and do), as I am sure you do as well. To that end, it is better not to make disparaging remarks(particularly when they are false or half truths) about others. So learn to play nice.

 

[cooldreams]

man you spoke such words of wisdom... what in the world are we doing as DOs ?? man... im gonna go MD... whats the point to go DO when MD is the gold standard and everything that DOs do is substandard (taken directly from many of the above posters)...

hey guys.. thanks for the advice... im gonna go md, who wants to be a phooey religious DO.......... this is also my last post, so you can rejoice in that i will stop bothering all of you... apparently i am the only person to feel/think this way.........


yay............................................................

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by cooldreams
i guess i just dont get it - what have i said that is false?? are you saying that what im typing here is bad because i am wrong or because i shouldnt state fact??

all the points i brought up are well known fact, and you shun me for talking about them.

is it ok to disregard truth in favor of not hurting someones feelings??

there are some real points that MD are better at, such as research and such. this is much of the very focus that many MD schools go towards and i commend them for it. but to ignore the fact that i have presented above in favor of gaining their approval... i mean what are you trying to say?? that we exist because they let us, so dont make waves????

"but to me it doesn't mean much when you have to start bashing others to feel that pride" i guess i didnt feel that im bashing anyone. stating fact is to me not bashing. "So, now you guys have convinced yourselves that MD's LEARN less and MAKE less? What's the weather like in crazy la-la land?" to me sounds like bashing but i guess you guys dont attack him because he IS an md student.

its kinda like religious issues these days. ppl say its ok to believe anything you want to. but the second you start talking about Jesus, everyone jumps all over you for not having religious tolerence. vocalizing fact is not the same as bashing. if you are emotionally sensitive to that particular fact, then i can see how you would take it as bashing, but that was not my intent.

i feel i have sufficiently stood my ground and backed up what i have said. if you want to give a different side, dont just say that im bashing or that im a pathetic pre-med because neither arguement holds any ground.

You are not so much wrong as you are poorly informed. Try to be a little more skeptical about the things you read.

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

Holy Batman! Gone for a day and this thread went to hell

Want to start out by saying that I work with a couple of DO's in my MD residency program and they are awesome! I would trust them with my health anyday. I even remember working with a DO resident when I was still a med student in OB Gyn who was WAY better than some of the MD residents. But like one member said, there are both really good and really terrible doctors from both types of schools so we really shouldn't bash each other at all. Having gone through MD school, I can name a dozen or so of my classmates who I would NEVER refer patients to.

The reason why I started this poll / thread is because one thing still really bothers me. I don't know what the application stats are today, but back in 1999 when I applied to med school, DO schools were considered backup schools with lower GPA & MCAT requirements. I'm sure today they are probably equal to MD schools judging from how enthusiastically some members post. But a part of me feels a little gypt because today DO's compete directly with MD's for the same residency spots & same jobs after residency. So a part of me is thinking "why wouldn't all the DO's just stick to their own residencies & specialize in OMT based specialties if they made it a point to distinguish their training as being different from MD training ... instead of taking away residency spots from MD graduates & competing for our jobs afterwards?" Before anyone jumps on me and begin another flame war, I want to remind you that I do think very highly of DO docs and have no doubt in their abilities because I work with them. But if they eventually end up in MD residencies & going for same jobs, why bother having DO schools or DO residencies? Just go for an MD training if they're not interested in practicing OMT in residency or afterwards.

Just wanted to get it off my chest and see what others feel.

 

[Echinoidea]

Why MD residencies? As an MD graduate, you surely know that there are way more residency spots available than there are American allopathic grads to fill them. And the inverse is true for the DO world. There are in fact not enough osteopathic residency spots to accommodate every Osteopathic graduate. I don't think the 'competition' from DO's is keeping any allopathic grads out of the residency they desire. - I'm not so naive to think that there isn't a palpable discrimination against DOs at some of the more prestigious hospitals.

So, my question is, would you rather have these extra residency slots filled by an American DO, or a FMG?

By the way, I'm an incoming DO student for the class of 2008, and I resent the statements cooldreams makes about osteopathic students. They in no way represent how I nor my peers feel about allopathic medicine. And I am most definitely NOT a fundamentalist christian.

 

[Histrionic]

You should add the category "accepted to nothing", which applies to most of the people that hit the SDN. A bunch of loser wannabes!

 

[bigmuny]

Originally posted by ribsandbbqbeef
Holy Batman! Gone for a day and this thread went to hell

Want to start out by saying that I work with a couple of DO's in my MD residency program and they are awesome! I would trust them with my health anyday. I even remember working with a DO resident when I was still a med student in OB Gyn who was WAY better than some of the MD residents. But like one member said, there are both really good and really terrible doctors from both types of schools so we really shouldn't bash each other at all. Having gone through MD school, I can name a dozen or so of my classmates who I would NEVER refer patients to.

The reason why I started this poll / thread is because one thing still really bothers me. I don't know what the application stats are today, but back in 1995 when I applied to med school, DO schools were considered backup schools with lower GPA & MCAT requirements. I'm sure today they are probably equal to MD schools judging from how enthusiastically some members post. But a part of me feels a little gypt because today DO's compete directly with MD's for the same residency spots & same jobs after residency. So a part of me is thinking "why wouldn't all the DO's just stick to their own residencies & specialize in OMT based specialties if they made it a point to distinguish their training as being different from MD training ... instead of taking away residency spots from MD graduates & competing for our jobs afterwards?" Before anyone jumps on me and begin another flame war, I want to remind you that I do think very highly of DO docs and have no doubt in their abilities because I work with them. But if they eventually end up in MD residencies & going for same jobs, why bother having DO schools or DO residencies? Just go for an MD training if they're not interested in practicing OMT in residency or afterwards.

Just wanted to get it off my chest and see what others feel.

Why don't DOs stick to their own residencies?

For a variety reasons. First, there are not enough DO residencies to accomodate all DO grads, and there are limited post grad specialty and sub specialty training programs. Second, most DO programs are small community based programs and are percieved to be inferior in quality to the larger academic medical center programs. As in anything else in life people strive to get the best training available, and admittedly the best training available, particularly in specialty and sub-specialty medicine is in the allopathic world.

Why don't all DOs do OMT based specialties?

OMT is a treatment, and not really the basis of any of the traditional medical specialties. There are people who do OMT exclusively, but these people are few and far between. OMT is viewed by the majority of DOs as an adjunct to traditional therapy(mostly seen as a way to facilitate quick pain relief and restore range of motion in musculoskeletal problems by most DOs). Some students like OMT and find it useful, some don't.

DOs competeing with MDs for residency positions and jobs?

Well, until graduate medical education(GME) becomes privately funded, they are not "your" positions. GME is funded by the federal government, we all pay for it, and if I want to compete for a spot than I will and really should not have to explain my reasons to anyone. Obviously, it can be argued that DO spots should be openned up to MDs, and I agree in all fairness they should. Additionally, to all MD folks who are bitter that they have to compete with DOs for spots, consider that we are a small fraction of the physician population and as a group largely interested primary care(greater than 50% of grads pursue PC areas that are really not competitive). If you are a US MD grad who lost an ortho/optho/derm, ect. spot to a DO, well I got news for you, it is likely you were not a competitive applicant in the first place and the DO who got that spot is likely a superstar(or the child of the program director) and deserved it more. There is no affirmative action for DOs, to the contrary in many parts of the country and in some specialties we are openly discriminated against. Understand that as a US MD student you go into the game with every advantage, and if you blow it, you really only have yourself to blame.

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

Hey bigmuny, I agree with what you are saying and it makes lots of sense. DO residencies should be open to MDs as well and MD's who get outcompeted by DOs probably don't deserve the residency positions.

Echinoidea, point taken and I do understand that there are way less DO residency spots than there are students. But by saying that, then isn't it a shortcoming of DO programs to have not established enough residencies spots for their own students before accepting so many students and opening up so many schools? It doesn't seem like the system is backing up the students well if they send them out to compete in other types of training programs' residency spots; rather than making sure they have the resources to support their own students first (should all DOs want to do DO residencies), and then give them the option to compete in MD spots if they choose....

Thanks everyone for the info. I'm more informed now and have a much better understanding of the system.

 

[raptor5]

Jesus Freak seemed to become a troll. I can not respect anyone who decides not to go DO because of how they felt they were treated on the forums. What a crybaby. Definitely not enough maturity to be a doctor.
I think it is pretty funny though.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by cooldreams

2) "We're more religious??" - The osteopathic physicians who are more committed to osteopathic manipulation tend to be more likely than their colleagues to have a fundamentalist religious orientation. http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/paradox_of_osteopathy.htm

I wouldn't go using Dr. Mercola as a source. He doesn't have a lot of credibility (there's some pretty odd stuff on some of his webpages).

 

[cooldreams]

Originally posted by raptor5
Jesus Freak seemed to become a troll. I can not respect anyone who decides not to go DO because of how they felt they were treated on the forums. What a crybaby. Definitely not enough maturity to be a doctor.
I think it is pretty funny though.

sigh.... sarcasim is completely lost over the internet...

 

[cooldreams]

Originally posted by DrMom
I wouldn't go using Dr. Mercola as a source. He doesn't have a lot of credibility (there's some pretty odd stuff on some of his webpages).

i believe if you go there, you will see that that was actually a copy from the new england journal of medicine and not his personal commments. but hey, no one agrees with that either, obviously, right??

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by cooldreams
i believe if you go there, you will see that that was actually a copy from the new england journal of medicine and not his personal commments. but hey, no one agrees with that either, obviously, right??

then go to the original source and avoid the middle-man

 

[cooldreams]

Originally posted by DrMom
then go to the original source and avoid the middle-man

you're right, completely my mistake...

so here ya go:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/341/19/1465

for those of us without an online subscription, please see my origional post.

 

[cooldreams]

just want to say that i did not mean to come across that ALL DO students/physicians are religious at all in any way or have family values or are older or do learn more or do earn more.

additionally i did not mean to come across as a troll in this instance, i see that i had now though and very easily.

still all that i stated i do belive to be true, i think as a DO i can potentially do a lot and am potentially around more ppl that have similar values as mine. this STILL is not to say that you, or you or, whomever else is reading this believes or thinks at all in any way shape or form similar to me.

i believe what i stated was backed up with factual references that are nationally recognized as such. and again, these sources were used to show generalizations, and do not nessesarily pertain to EVERY DO student.

Echinoidea, my peers/friends at various medical instituitions ARE in fact very religious. just because you and your peers/friends are not does not mean that all real medical students are not, but at the same time, even though i AM religious does not mean that all med students ARE religious. i am sorry that you inferred that from what i wrote, i meant to convey that statistically most are.

i do agree, this thread is ded and sucks... i wish it would not continue............. i have honestly tried to be very neutral here, only stating what i have found as fact and my own personal experiences, and have identified each accordingly. not everyone is the same, i acknowledge this..........

 

[bigmuny]

Regarding this religion business. The article states(and I don't know if there is any proof of this or just the authors musings/observations) that "DOs committed to osteopathic manipulation" tend to have fundamentalist christian leanings. I would not be surprised if this were true. However, the number of DOs committed to OMT is small fraction of the DO population(I think around 1% identify themselves as OMT specialists, and only about 5% use OMT regularly according to the JAOA). I would imagine that most DO schools reflect the general population, with some regional differences as would any MD school(at least this has been my experience).

 

[sophiejane]

Touting one's religious beliefs in the workplace is unprofessional and inappropriate. I hope all the "fundamentalist" DOs of whom you speak keep their dogma to themselves at work, because I for one won't tolerate being preached at by a colleague, and I suspect most patients won't tolerate it from their doctor either.

 

[cooldreams]

Originally posted by sophiejane
Touting one's religious beliefs in the workplace is unprofessional and inappropriate. I hope all the "fundamentalist" DOs of whom you speak keep their dogma to themselves at work, because I for one won't tolerate being preached at by a colleague, and I suspect most patients won't tolerate it from their doctor either.

oh geez
here we go again... how about...

"i hope all (of) the fundamentalist" athiests and pagans "keep their dogma to themselves at work" ... "i for one won't tolerate being preached at..."

nice eh?? works both ways

my point is, i do not recall telling you how you have to believe, i.e. i did not preach at/too you.... but here you are already in defense, and telling me what i should and should not do...

freedom of speech is a REAL FREEDOM in the USA. live with it. or move to a communist country... i have not forced my beliefs upon you, i have not harmed you or defamed you in anyway....

have a great life in the "professional world"

 

[sophiejane]

I have never been preached at by an atheist or a pagan, but there are many times I have been preached at by a Christian, because evangelism is one of the tenets of fundamentalist Christianity.

You will do yourself a favor if you keep your religion to yourself in the workplace--that's all I am saying. It is fine to discuss it here, but not to push it on others at school and work as many fundamentalist Christians do.

Sorry to get off topic on this thread. Over and out.

 

[cooldreams]

well, i mean did you think i was pushing it on you?? if you did im sorry...

i honestly do not normally discuss it unless someone else brings it up first, and i can usually judge to see how much they wanna talk about it, if at all....

i firmly believe that religion is your choice. i think that many ppl have the bible wrong, that we are not at all to force it upon ppl, but rather be a reflection, as best we can, of God. meaning, to live the life the bible tells us to live. you cannot force religion on someone, it is always their choice to believe or not. if someone tells you otherwise, they are very mistaken.

 

[azcomdiddy]

I have noticed the MD vs. DO debates are thankfully limited to the pre-med, med student crowd. Practicing physicians and patients could care less. It's a pity that you both parties have to get into such a heated debate about this lame topic.

To the DO student, must you respond to the MD student who

1. Doesn't represent most MD's and allopathic students

2. Is merely trying to get your goat as they say.

Seriously, don't make this an issue by responding to the ***** who starts this crap just to get a kick out of you. This the last time I will ever respond to an MD vs. Do thread.

 

[cooldreams]

Originally posted by azcomdiddy
This the last time I will ever respond to an MD vs. Do thread.

hehe yea right

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by ribsandbbqbeef
Hey bigmuny, I agree with what you are saying and it makes lots of sense. DO residencies should be open to MDs as well and MD's who get outcompeted by DOs probably don't deserve the residency positions.

Echinoidea, point taken and I do understand that there are way less DO residency spots than there are students. But by saying that, then isn't it a shortcoming of DO programs to have not established enough residencies spots for their own students before accepting so many students and opening up so many schools? It doesn't seem like the system is backing up the students well if they send them out to compete in other types of training programs' residency spots; rather than making sure they have the resources to support their own students first (should all DOs want to do DO residencies), and then give them the option to compete in MD spots if they choose....

Thanks everyone for the info. I'm more informed now and have a much better understanding of the system.

This is an excellent point. The fact that there are not enough Osteopathic residency slots for all DO graduates is a serious short coming, especially when new schools are opening up.

In all honesty, I am astounded by the short-sighted behavior of the AOA in this regard. The money being spent to open these new schools should have been spent to create new teaching hospitals, or maybe a graduate school or two in the basic sciences to bolster our research. Of course, a med school is a better cash cow.........

Osteopathic medicine doesn't need to think about increasing quantity so much as it does quality. It is a real shame that so many of our graduates jump ship for allopathic residencies rather than stick around to improve their own. Of course, with a group like the current AOA running the show, I don't really blame them.

 

[moo]

The AOA is not responsible for the opening up of new schools. If you want someone to blame for that, blame LECOM, TUCOM and the individual medical schools. The AOA simple accredits these new schools and if they satisfy the accreditation board of the AOA then there's really nothing they can do. But I do agree that it's too bad there are not enough DO residencies to go around. I'm an MD student and as I interact with more and more DOs I feel like the allopathically trained ones are exactly the same as us... which makes me wonder what was the point of them going DO in the first place

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

Exactly daveyboy & moo; that's the point I was driving at. If DO's turn out exactly the same as MD's, what IS the point of having DO schools unless DO programs open up more of their own residency programs and make their curriculum different enough from MD training to validify a distinction between DO & MD. Even if there are more DO residency programs, if their training is essentially identical to MD, then why the distinction?

 

[cooldreams]

assuming a world where DO = MD, which i still say it does not, then you would have to consider not the why... but the why not...

consider for example, A.B. degrees versus B.A. degrees.. or dentistry or med degrees from other countries etc etc etc...

i guess what it is getting at is ASSUMEING DO = MD, then you are questioning values and tradition, when questioning the existance of DO and MD at the same point in time and space...

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

eh? Sorry cooldreams, don't quite follow you there ...

In many of the MD/DO threads, DOs' vehemently proclaim the equalness of MD & DO degrees, emphasize that MD & DO have the same rights & privileges, and insist on the same style of training of MD & DO residencies. It is after reading all these posts that I wonder why the DO profession exists if it is "same" in so many ways and if DOs are essentially the same as MDs post residency?

~ribs.

 

[Maxip]

Originally posted by ribsandbbqbeef
eh? Sorry cooldreams, don't quite follow you there ...

In many of the MD/DO threads, DOs' vehemently proclaim the equalness of MD & DO degrees, emphasize that MD & DO have the same rights & privileges, and insist on the same style of training of MD & DO residencies. It is after reading all these posts that I wonder why the DO profession exists if it is "same" in so many ways and if DOs are essentially the same as MDs post residency?

~ribs.

No, no, bbq. I think you missed the point of most of those posts. The point was that DO's are equal to MD's in essentially every way, but that they are BETTER than MD's in terms of: maturity, religious affiliation, compassion, range of therapies available, and humility. So, you see, the two degrees aren't actually equal.

 

[ribsandbbqbeef]

Boy, the sarcasm on this board....

 

[cooldreams]

guys... the degrees are not equal. to be equal, then at all points, distributions, census, training, opportunities, motivations, etc etc etc etc ETC!!!! would all have to be 'equal' .

irregardless of any belief in what i said to be true, DOs learn things that MDs do not, and MDs learn things that DOs do not. these "things" are more like aspects of various things on the fringes of their core learning. the core learning is the same. this is why there are so many similarities... but the edge differences are the reasons why ppl go one way or another...

maybe i will be one of the "few" who decide to use OMM, and as such would like to be a part of the "few" who are also very religious. if i were to go into FP, and use OMM in my practice... something an MD would not be very able to do without extra training, then i would undoubtedly earn more. hence my statement holds true to what i originally said. an MD or a DO in rads... they will get approx the same pay given various environmental/regional differences... like a poster said, this is a remote reason to chose DO, but nonetheless, it does seem to have struck up a rather large commotion hehe...

MD does not equal DO w.r.t. a few techniques taught or motives for doing various things. MD does equal DO w.r.t. core learning, basic understand and fundamentals and motives for medicine...

i think you can reasonablly show that core training in MD and DO is the same given the results of testing... but at the same time use testing to show that fringe differences do infact set them apart.

im sure you all have had tests that ask all inclusive positive questions... and they are almost always false...

7) DO = MD ??
False.

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by ribsandbbqbeef
Exactly daveyboy & moo; that's the point I was driving at. If DO's turn out exactly the same as MD's, what IS the point of having DO schools unless DO programs open up more of their own residency programs and make their curriculum different enough from MD training to validify a distinction between DO & MD. Even if there are more DO residency programs, if their training is essentially identical to MD, then why the distinction?

I agree that the two schools of thought have become essentially identical in education and in practice. This is largely because the factors that caused the original split simply do not exist anymore, although there are some that would like to pretend that this is not the case.

So, if this is the case, why the distinction in degrees?

I think the distinction is important because it is respectful of the tradition of the Osteopathic schools and the hard work of the people who founded them. Were everything to evetually merge; board exams, licensing commitees, etc., I would still support the DO degree remaining.