Post-Bac options

[Wozzeck]

Hi y'all,

I'm new to this forum so excuse me in advance if I commit any faux pas. I'd like to hear as much information as I can for my options after this year. I'm graduating from Washington University in St. Louis with a major in psychology (focus on cognitive psychology) and a minor in biology. My gpa will be about a 3.2 or so. I will be taking the mcat this summer (in fact, im dedicating my summer to doing so). I believe, confidently, that I can score above a 30. What are my options for increasing my lackluster GPA? I didn't know what I was doing freshman and sophmore year so my gpa's sucked. My GPA the last few semesters, however, have been 3.7+. I'm doing undergraduate psychology research, and I spent a semester in Australia. I'm also an EMT and very interested in emergency medicine as a career.

My questions are should i do a certificate program or a masters program? What's the difference, what else should I be thinking about?

Thanks so much, and I'm sure i'll have more questions once the ball gets rolling.

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[houjen]

I am a post-bacc as well and I am taking upper level Bio classes and my prerequisties because my undergrad was not in a science area. If you do a Master's, it won't count towards your undergrad gpa, which is what they are going to look at. I have been told by several people not even to bother with a Master's. I would do a certificate program if the classes will count towards your undergrad gpa. Or a formal post bacc program geared towards pre meds if there is one in your area.

 

[thewendster]

definetely a post bac is the way to go. it can boost up your GPA. The only frustrating thing is that depending on how many credits you've taken, one year of post bac may only be able to bring your GPA up by .1 or .2 points.. but every little bit counts and it will help hammer in your upward trend in grades if you do well.

 

[Wozzeck]

I am a post-bacc as well and I am taking upper level Bio classes and my prerequisties because my undergrad was not in a science area. If you do a Master's, it won't count towards your undergrad gpa, which is what they are going to look at. I have been told by several people not even to bother with a Master's. I would do a certificate program if the classes will count towards your undergrad gpa. Or a formal post bacc program geared towards pre meds if there is one in your area.

What's the difference?

 

[notdeadyet]

What's the difference?

There isn't, often. Many post-bacs offer a "certificate" as part of the program. You are not eligible for federal student loans unless classes are taken towards a degree or certificate, so lots of postbac programs are actually "certificate" programs.

 

[Wozzeck]

There isn't, often. Many post-bacs offer a "certificate" as part of the program. You are not eligible for federal student loans unless classes are taken towards a degree or certificate, so lots of postbac programs are actually "certificate" programs.

what do people know about the university of penn's program? is it good (successful in getting matriculants to med school?) competitive?

 

[effwun]

If you do a Master's, it won't count towards your undergrad gpa, which is what they are going to look at. I have been told by several people not even to bother with a Master's. I would do a certificate program if the classes will count towards your undergrad gpa. Or a formal post bacc program geared towards pre meds if there is one in your area.

You see, this is what I don't get. Why would an AdCom not even even look at a graduate GPA? Graduate classes are at least (if not much harder) than upper level undergrad classes.

The only thing I've seen is that people say 'Well AdCom's know that lab rotations are pretty much guaranteed A's'. (Which I dispute, but for the sake for argument, let's say it's true)

For one, there are plenty of masters programs that are all classes. Why would an AdCom want people going on and on taking more undergraduate classes just to raise their undergraduate GPA? If that was the case, why would they even have a separate category for graduate grades? Why not just lump them into the undergraduate grades?

Additionally, it's NOT like in research oriented graduate degrees you take two classes and the rest are 'guaranteed A's' in lab rotations. Masters programs with research are typically around 75% classes and 25% lab, so if you aren't doing well in the classes, your graduate GPA isn't going to be saved by lab rotations.

Third, why is undergraduate research soooo important but lab research as a grad doesn't count?

I think the opinions you get on whether or not to do a master's depends on the forum you're reading, in some threads it just gets to be a popular opinion that is propagated. Check out this thread Master's Programs - do they help you get in There are a number of posts about people getting in with a masters, even after having sub-3.0 undergraduate GPA.

When it comes down to it, for me at least, a masters degree will get you the same place as a post-bacc if everything goes your way, if things don't go your way you're still better off. If things don't go your way in a post-bacc, what do you have after a year? And what's more, how often have you heard of people getting assistantships for a post-bacc? Yeah, like NEVER. But with a graduate degree, if you do it right you can get an assistantship (may be harder with psych since there are a million psych majors, but who knows) and a stipend of top of it.

The best thing the post-bacc programs have going for them is that some of them are tied to a med school so you can take the same classes as med students and they can compare how you do to the students.

No matter what you do, I think it is probably a good idea to try to get a graduate degree / post-bacc from a school that also has a college of medicine because even if you aren't in the same classes as the med students, maybe you get to know the teachers or people on the AdCom and that's a plus too.

Anyways, just my $.02.

 

[4paw]

I'd check out the masters programmes that 'link' into med schools (check out hte post-bacc forum, there's also an smp one, i think) - so that the master's counts the most...

however, i don't know if a straight-up science masters does the same sorts of things,

how that would compare.

what i do know is that some 'linked' masters/certificates have excellent matriculation rates into that same med school that year. and it's rolling admission, but you could get the form in around about now.

not sure if that was on your radar before, but wanted to add that, just in case.

Siobhan

 

[ElZeekio]

A Master's degree is not to be taken lightly. You may well lose the will to live slogging through a thesis or research project. You *should* do a Master's if there's some area you want to research and write about. Not that doing a post-bac is the easier option, just there's more flexibility and variety and it's designed for people who have a BA/BS and now want to go to med school. Master's programs are designed for people who want to do research and perhaps go into academia.

What the others have said about gpa-boosting, I agree that a graduate degree won't help with that.

I also think that there's a certain random element about this whole process, so even if your numbers look good, it doesn't guarantee anything.

I would recommend finding a post-bac program with linkage agreements at a med school you want to attend. This guarantees you admission to the med school if your post-bac gpa and mcat scores meet some standard. It also means you can start med school right after the program, rather than waiting the 18 months people like me did.

 

[boodthedog]

what do people know about the university of penn's program? is it good (successful in getting matriculants to med school?) competitive?

I'm doing post-bacc at a state school in my area, but a teacher of mine also teaches (or taught, not sure) night chem for penn's post bacc. He described it as a very dedicated group with linkages that gets people right into Penn or more often Jefferson. I've also heard, but can by no means confirm, that it's tough to get into, and they look into where you went to school (ie they want Ivy's) more than how you did. Also, one of my MCAT prep teachers did it, and she spoke highly of it.

 

[Faze2]

I'm doing post-bacc at a state school in my area, but a teacher of mine also teaches (or taught, not sure) night chem for penn's post bacc. He described it as a very dedicated group with linkages that gets people right into Penn or more often Jefferson. I've also heard, but can by no means confirm, that it's tough to get into, and they look into where you went to school (ie they want Ivy's) more than how you did. Also, one of my MCAT prep teachers did it, and she spoke highly of it.

This is pretty much true. I applied to Penn's program and had a lot of contact with the director. I didn't get in. When I showed her my grades from the last semester or two at Penn State, where I earned a 3.6 or something in Chem and upper level Econ courses, she said they look for schools that have a better reputation than PSU. I almost laughed. I know PSU is not Ivy League, but an A in Chem at PSU (I took the first Chem there) is an A in chem. The funny thing was, the prof that taught chem I and wrote me a LOR actually taught in the exact same program at Penn. I still did my volunteering at HUP and I met a few students that were in Penn's post bacc program. One girl had the same stats as me with less clinical experience and she got in. She went to Brown, so they liked that better. Another kid was pretty similar to me and got in. He was an Anthropology major from Notre Dame. They really care where you went to school. But if you can get in, they really do all they can to get you in somewhere. I just wonder if it is more to keep up their reputation than anything else. (Which is understandable though.)

 

[riceman04]

This is pretty much true. I applied to Penn's program and had a lot of contact with the director. I didn't get in. When I showed her my grades from the last semester or two at Penn State, where I earned a 3.6 or something in Chem and upper level Econ courses, she said they look for schools that have a better reputation than PSU. I almost laughed. I know PSU is not Ivy League, but an A in Chem at PSU (I took the first Chem there) is an A in chem. The funny thing was, the prof that taught chem I and wrote me a LOR actually taught in the exact same program at Penn. I still did my volunteering at HUP and I met a few students that were in Penn's post bacc program. One girl had the same stats as me with less clinical experience and she got in. She went to Brown, so they liked that better. Another kid was pretty similar to me and got in. He was an Anthropology major from Notre Dame. They really care where you went to school. But if you can get in, they really do all they can to get you in somewhere. I just wonder if it is more to keep up their reputation than anything else. (Which is understandable though.)

Lies lies lies!!!!

The program is not competitive at all...it just has a good rep b/c it is Penn!!!

Right now it seems as if that program has fallen apart with the recent hiring of a dean from Jefferson. Students are unhappy b/c advisors are not accessible and unwilling to give individualized advice.

And in terms of that bs you are spewing...there are several people in this program who DID NOT go to one of the so called "top universities" (and in fact there are several people from PSU).

Brynn Mawr is by far a more competitive program.

 

[njbmd]

Moving to Post Bacc Forum for replies. Nontraditional students can reply there if desired.

 

[Faze2]

Lies lies lies!!!!

The program is not competitive at all...it just has a good rep b/c it is Penn!!!

Right now it seems as if that program has fallen apart with the recent hiring of a dean from Jefferson. Students are unhappy b/c advisors are not accessible and unwilling to give individualized advice.

And in terms of that names bs that you are spewing...there are several people in this program who DID NOT go to one of the so called "top universities" (and in fact there are several people from PSU).

Brynn Mawr is by far a more competitive program.

I'm sure all of this is true. I was posting about my experience with Penn and how I got that impression form them. I am sure there are plenty of kids from non Ivy schools that go there, PSU included, but the attitude I got from them was basically what I posted before.

I know Bryn Mawr is probably the most reputable from what I heard.

 

[Wozzeck]

Lies lies lies!!!!

The program is not competitive at all...it just has a good rep b/c it is Penn!!!

Right now it seems as if that program has fallen apart with the recent hiring of a dean from Jefferson. Students are unhappy b/c advisors are not accessible and unwilling to give individualized advice.

And in terms of that names bs that you are spewing...there are several people in this program who DID NOT go to one of the so called "top universities" (and in fact there are several people from PSU).

Brynn Mawr is by far a more competitive program.

Thanks for the advice. I just want some program that will get me into a med school, will accept me given that i'm taking an august 9th mcat (aka take sat/act's), and will offer me some type of financial aid (ie loans)

 

[Wozzeck]

Let me ask my question as concisely as possible: all in all, what is the big difference (pros and cons) for both the masters programs (drexel, gtown) or a certificate program like at upenn?

 

[ssquared]

Let me ask my question as concisely as possible: all in all, what is the big difference (pros and cons) for both the masters programs (drexel, gtown) or a certificate program like at upenn?

The major differences are that at the SMPs (for the most part) students take medical school classes with the associated medical school. At the end of it, they have a degree in hand. A certificate program is graduate and undergraduate classes (depends on the school) and at the end, you have a certificate, not a degree. To me, those are the huge differences between the two. Personally, after spending $30,000-40,000 for a one-year program, I would like to at least have a degree from it.

 

[nanaschool2000]

Let me ask my question as concisely as possible: all in all, what is the big difference (pros and cons) for both the masters programs (drexel, gtown) or a certificate program like at upenn?

It's hard to determine pros/cons between those two programs. I believe the characteristics of those programs are different. It's totally depending on what you are lacking of. It is important to choose the program that satisfy your needs (not the most popular program on SDN). --- This is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Wozzeck]

The major differences are that at the SMPs (for the most part) students take medical school classes with the associated medical school. At the end of it, they have a degree in hand. A certificate program is graduate and undergraduate classes (depends on the school) and at the end, you have a certificate, not a degree. To me, those are the huge differences between the two. Personally, after spending $30,000-40,000 for a one-year program, I would like to at least have a degree from it.

I hear what you're saying. For me the point of the program, no matter its cost, is to get into a medical school in the US. That being said, should I shoot for special masters' programs or a cert program? (edit: I need to raise my GPA from 3.2 to something higher)

 

[lawnboy313]

AMCAS calculates your undergrad GPA separately from your graduate GPA. So, the only way to up your undergrad GPA is to take undergrad courses. If you're doing a SMP with a linkage to a medical school, this may not matter too much in the end. But if you want your options open for other medical schools, the only way to get your undergrad numbers to where you'll have a fighting chance is to take undergrad courses. Your undergrad numbers have to be up to par regardless of what you did in graduate classes.

Assuming you have a 3.2 for about 100 credits or so, it'll take a long time and lots of hard work to get that to a 3.5 or higher in a standard undergrad post-bac. Better to do an SMP with a linkage to a medical school...less time, less money, less headache (assuming you eventually get in to the medical school).

 

[Wozzeck]

What's the point of post-bac if it doesn't effect your undergrad GPA? This can't be right, otherwise these programs wouldn't exist. Med schools must look at this graduate GPA and upper level classes and say "hey, yes, this kid has come out of the crapper and is a way better student now, look at his post-bac grades". Right?

AMCAS calculates your undergrad GPA separately from your graduate GPA. So, the only way to up your undergrad GPA is to take undergrad courses. If you're doing a SMP with a linkage to a medical school, this may not matter too much in the end. But if you want your options open for other medical schools, the only way to get your undergrad numbers to where you'll have a fighting chance is to take undergrad courses. Your undergrad numbers have to be up to par regardless of what you did in graduate classes.

Assuming you have a 3.2 for about 100 credits or so, it'll take a long time and lots of hard work to get that to a 3.5 or higher in a standard undergrad post-bac. Better to do an SMP with a linkage to a medical school...less time, less money, less headache (assuming you eventually get in to the medical school).

 

[lawnboy313]

What's the point of post-bac if it doesn't effect your undergrad GPA? This can't be right, otherwise these programs wouldn't exist. Med schools must look at this graduate GPA and upper level classes and say "hey, yes, this kid has come out of the crapper and is a way better student now, look at his post-bac grades". Right?

The point is that post-bac programs DO affect your cumulative undergrad GPA, whereas SMP's don't. Post-bac courses count as undergraduate courses. Master's level classes (SMP classes) count as graduate courses. While AMCAS does have separate spaces for for both graduate and post-baccalaureate GPA's, the cumulative undergrad GPA is the most important number of the bunch.

I think you've accidentally confused post-bac courses with graduate courses--while you are technically a college graduate when you take post-bac courses, post-bacc undergrad courses (including higher level undergrad courses) count in your cumulative undergrad GPA.

 

[Lshapley]

To the OP:

If you think you can rock the MCAT, I would say that it is worth a shot to apply (early and broadly) to medical schools this year. With the upward trend in your gpa (they do look at it on a year-to-year basis) and an MCAT that is higher than a 32, you could get into a couple 2nd-tier schools. You should submit the AMCAS early. It might not work with your August MCAT, but it sure would beat doing a couple of years in a post bac or SMP if you can afford the risk!

 

[Wozzeck]

Aha. Now I'm starting to understand. The reason I was confused was because the AMCAS lists both undergrad and grad certificate programs (and non-certificate programs for grad/undergrad). What is the difference, is it that undergrad post-bac effects undergrad gpa and grad post-bac certificates effect graduate gpa?

The point is that post-bac programs DO affect your cumulative undergrad GPA, whereas SMP's don't. Post-bac courses count as undergraduate courses. Master's level classes (SMP classes) count as graduate courses. While AMCAS does have separate spaces for for both graduate and post-baccalaureate GPA's, the cumulative undergrad GPA is the most important number of the bunch.

I think you've accidentally confused post-bac courses with graduate courses--while you are technically a college graduate when you take post-bac courses, post-bacc undergrad courses (including higher level undergrad courses) count in your cumulative undergrad GPA.

 

[lawnboy313]

Aha. Now I'm starting to understand. The reason I was confused was because the AMCAS lists both undergrad and grad certificate programs (and non-certificate programs for grad/undergrad). What is the difference, is it that undergrad post-bac effects undergrad gpa and grad post-bac certificates effect graduate gpa?

That's correct--post-bac undergrad-level courses affect your cumulative undergrad GPA, while post-bac graduate-level courses affect your cumulative graduate GPA. As I understand it, the most important one is your cumulative undergraduate GPA. When folks on here refer to their GPA, or medical schools refer to their average GPA for acceptees, they're talking about the cumulative undergraduate GPA.