Post-bacc, etc, etc ....

[runnergal]

Hey all,

I am interested in completing my pre-medical studies and I am **open** to hearing what you guys have to say about where I am, what I should do, etc?

Education:
4yr urban Uni (2 years, 2.45 cGPA) - an athlete there, didn't open a textbook once. Life and immaturity happens. I didn't party once or drink, which was the interesting part. If I was a psychologist, I would probably have characterized it as depression vs identity issues
4 yr state school in the midwest also participating in a demanding athletic program (2 years, 2.8 cGPA)

Between both schools, I took Gen Chem 1 and Bio 1 one school; and then Physics sequence at the other school because physical science was a required elective
Got an F in one of the courses. Again, didn't open a textbook, didn't go to lectures, didn't study.
I know it is easy to say, but I am not who I was 5-6 years ago freshman/sophomore year in college. I know who I am today.

Completing my Master of Public Health degree at an accredited College of Public Health - 3.8 GPA


Extra Curricular:
*2 or so years as a physician scribe/project manager for a medical scribe company
Documented nearly 70-100 patient charts a week at the bedside and implemented programs across the country (mostly in underserved or rural area hospitals that most of us on this forum have never experienced). Also, had the opportunity to witness the poor distribution of healthcare services in America, and had the chance to save some doctors' butts from their mistakes (and patients' lives a few times!).
*Healthcare IT work at a medical school for approx 9 months
*clinical research in child psychology - 5 months
*Currently in clinical research in infectious disease at a leading pediatric hospital (specialty I would like to eventually practice...)
*fitness model
*former Division 1 athlete
*primary school math tutor at my church


Question:
Considering DIY vs Post Bacc in Philly or South Jersey areas.
I have PSU Brandywine as an option. I was considering just applying to UPenn general post-baccalaureate so I can take the classes sort of on my own schedule, and not the official UPenn Pre-health post-baccalaureate. Drexel is also an option, but I don't want to wait until Summer 2016 to start as I graduate my MPH in December 2015. Alot of people are giving me bad reviews on Drexel PMED evening program.

Who do you believe, if any program, could possibly accept me into their official post-bacc in this area?

Thoughts from the experienced folks on how I could best do this in two years to set myself up for a successful application

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[GrapesofRath]

Welp GPA's dont really move much after 6 years of studies. So that's a problem. The Masters GPA' won't do much for you you have to prove to ADCOMs you can do well in undergrad level coursework. So there a couple things you can do here. It'll be alot of hard work and time and you have to decide if its worth it but there is a path in place for success if you really want this badly enough. And you'l need more than 2 years.
1) Re-take as many classes you got a C or lower in as you can. This in itself will take a long time.
2) You need 2 years of new classes to prove you can handle med school and you need to do well in them. 3.7+ is your goal here.
3) The MCAT is the other huge variable here. Your goal should be 65th+ percentile.
4) After all this is done and only after this is done apply broadly and you can have some luck with DO schools. You certainly have plenty of life experiences. But 6 years of 2.5 caliber GPA work.......is well going to take alot to overcome. I don't really want to set a numerical GPA target here because it's just going to be hard to significantly increase your GPA. But multiple years of strong undergrad work(2 years worth of new classes and then in addition re-taking those classes you need to) and a solid MCAT and I think you can have some success.

 

[ComputerGuy365]

If you want MD, it's going to take work. DO will be much more attainable.

 

[runnergal]

Welp GPA's dont really move much after 6 years of studies. So that's a problem. The Masters GPA' won't do much for you you have to prove to ADCOMs you can do well in undergrad level coursework. So there a couple things you can do here. It'll be alot of hard work and time and you have to decide if its worth it but there is a path in place for success if you really want this badly enough. And you'l need more than 2 years.
1) Re-take as many classes you got a C or lower in as you can. This in itself will take a long time.
2) You need 2 years of new classes to prove you can handle med school and you need to do well in them. 3.7+ is your goal here.
3) The MCAT is the other huge variable here. Your goal should be 65th+ percentile.
4) After all this is done and only after this is done apply broadly and you can have some luck with DO schools. You certainly have plenty of life experiences. But 6 years of 2.5 caliber GPA work.......is well going to take alot to overcome. I don't really want to set a numerical GPA target here because it's just going to be hard to significantly increase your GPA. But multiple years of strong undergrad work(2 years worth of new classes and then in addition re-taking those classes you need to) and a solid MCAT and I think you can have some success.

Thank you Grapes.

Your suggestion is to retake the science and math courses I got a C or less in or all of the courses? I was not a math/science/eng major.

I may possibly be working part-time to maintain the clinical research role in inf dz. My parents are sacrificing money form their retirement to pay the courses I need, and I will be moving back home. Do you recommend I take two classes per term (2 years post bacc) so I can maintain working part time as you believe the experience/connection is worth keeping OR do you believe I have enough medical experience to prove my dedication and should not work and take 3 courses per term (for 2.5-3 years) so that I can take as many courses as possible?


Thank you again for your time,


J.

 

[runnergal]

If you want MD, it's going to take work. DO will be much more attainable.

Both will take WORK.

 

[ComputerGuy365]

Both will take WORK.

Can't he just retake F/D/C coursework and apply DO?

 

[Goro]

Yup, retake all F/D/C science coursework. AACOMAS' grade replacement policy does wonders for the GPA.

Your suggestion is to retake the science and math courses I got a C or less in or all of the courses? I was not a math/science/eng major.


This is a marathon, not a race, so take your time and do it right.
I may possibly be working part-time to maintain the clinical research role in inf dz. My parents are sacrificing money form their retirement to pay the courses I need, and I will be moving back home. Do you recommend I take two classes per term (2 years post bacc) so I can maintain working part time as you believe the experience/connection is worth keeping OR do you believe I have enough medical experience to prove my dedication

 

[runnergal]

Can't he just retake F/D/C coursework and apply DO?

I wrote that I only took Gen Chem I (one semester), Gen Bio (one sem), and a sequence of Physics.
Chem and Bio were 6 years ago my freshman year- therefore it all needs to be retaken.

Also - I am not trying to be BASIC in this process. I need to show I've put in all effort and thensome .....


I do see what you mean. Retake each of the 4 individual courses I took, also repeat Calculus prn, and then complete the rest of the requirements, and then some,

 

[runnergal]

This is a marathon, not a race, so take your time and do it right. ...

a runner's analogy I understand ... Thank you

Yup, retake all F/D/C science coursework. AACOMAS' grade replacement policy does wonders for the GPA.

Your suggestion is to retake the science and math courses I got a C or less in or all of the courses? I was not a math/science/eng major.


This is a marathon, not a race, so take your time and do it right.
I may possibly be working part-time to maintain the clinical research role in inf dz. My parents are sacrificing money form their retirement to pay the courses I need, and I will be moving back home. Do you recommend I take two classes per term (2 years post bacc) so I can maintain working part time as you believe the experience/connection is worth keeping OR do you believe I have enough medical experience to prove my dedication

 

[GrapesofRath]

By far your biggest priority is your academic work and for this you want to take a full time courseload(ie around 15 credits give or take). Taking only a few classes a term isn't proving you can handle undergrad work well enough to convince ADCOMs you can do well in med school. Now you can start out slow to start---maybe go with only 12 credits for your first semester or maybe take a lighter courseload in terms of not as many difficult classes in the beginning. Success is what you need and if the way you can get it to start is by going light then do it. Like Goro said this is a marathon not a sprint and if you REALLY want this you have to be willing to take the appropriate time this will take. But 2 classes per term like you said is not going to cut it. If that means not maintaining your part time job then so be it. You have to make sacrifices to do well academically. Whatever it takes.

 

[blacchic856]

Look into Jefferson's P4 program, it's the basic science courses and has a linkage to their medical school. That's the program I was contemplating but financially a formal post-bacc isn't feasible for me

 

[runnergal]

Thank you.

I believe they have linkage with PCOM and Jeff... as my classmate did the Jeff P4 program.
Question is: would I even get in? ... and then subsequently .... how many people actually get in for linkage among those who apply for it? if only 5 people get in from linkage and like 50 people apply for linkage, it wouldn't be worth it for me, ya know? It would be better to apply broadly to have choices ....

Applying to the program wouldn't hurt, but I would have to review the fine print I guess...

Look into Jefferson's P4 program, it's the basic science courses and has a linkage to their medical school. That's the program I was contemplating but financially a formal post-bacc isn't feasible for me

 

[runnergal]

Great, Thank you for the info. I am wondering if this two-class per term deal isn't a good thing, why do many of the post bacc programs offer two year programs, with two classes per semester, with maybe one semester out of the total 4 semesters having maybe 3 classes?

Or you say this because of my undergraduate performance, I will need to take 3-4 classes per term?

By far your biggest priority is your academic work and for this you want to take a full time courseload(ie around 15 credits give or take). Taking only a few classes a term isn't proving you can handle undergrad work well enough to convince ADCOMs you can do well in med school. Now you can start out slow to start---maybe go with only 12 credits for your first semester or maybe take a lighter courseload in terms of not as many difficult classes in the beginning. Success is what you need and if the way you can get it to start is by going light then do it. Like Goro said this is a marathon not a sprint and if you REALLY want this you have to be willing to take the appropriate time this will take. But 2 classes per term like you said is not going to cut it. If that means not maintaining your part time job then so be it. You have to make sacrifices to do well academically. Whatever it takes.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Great, Thank you for the info. I am wondering if this two-class per term deal isn't a good thing, why do many of the post bacc programs offer two year programs, with two classes per semester, with maybe one semester out of the total 4 semesters having maybe 3 classes?

Or you say this because of my undergraduate performance, I will need to take 3-4 classes per term?

It's different for you particularly given your GPA. If one has a 3.8 and is just going to take their pre-reqs at a post-bac then taking 2 classes and doing well if they are post-baccs isn't a major issue. There aren't going to be questions about whether they can handle the workload.

Also informal post-baccs are different than formal post-bacs. Nobody is going to penalize anybody because a formal respected post-bac doesn't have say 6 classes or whatever. The best way to look at this is like this. The whole point of undergrad is to show you can handle the academic rigor of med school. Doing this requires taking a full courseload. It would be a red flag to only take 6-9 credits a semester and have to graduate in 5-6 years because of this. So now for a post-bacc, the same thing here is you need to show you can do well at the undergrad level. Taking a full courseload is what will do this. Now perhaps there will be more flexibility given since you are a post-bac and out of school but all in all just taking 2 classes a) will do little to improve your GPA b) take forever for you because you need to retake classes AND do well in new ones c) isn't showing you are doing well with a full workload which is an issue because med school workloads dwarf even heavy undergrad workloads.

 

[runnergal]

It's different for you particularly given your GPA. If one has a 3.8 and is just going to take their pre-reqs at a post-bac then taking 2 classes and doing well if they are post-baccs isn't a major issue. There aren't going to be questions about whether they can handle the workload.

Also informal post-baccs are different than formal post-bacs. Nobody is going to penalize anybody because a formal respected post-bac doesn't have say 6 classes or whatever. The best way to look at this is like this. The whole point of undergrad is to show you can handle the academic rigor of med school. Doing this requires taking a full courseload. It would be a red flag to only take 6-9 credits a semester and have to graduate in 5-6 years because of this. So now for a post-bacc, the same thing here is you need to show you can do well at the undergrad level. Taking a full courseload is what will do this. Now perhaps there will be more flexibility given since you are a post-bac and out of school but all in all just taking 2 classes a) will do little to improve your GPA b) take forever for you because you need to retake classes AND do well in new ones c) isn't showing you are doing well with a full workload which is an issue because med school workloads dwarf even heavy undergrad workloads.

Thanks for the summary. Much appreciated.


J.

 

[NonTradJp]

I would suggest you take as many courses as you can handle for your particular life situation as you can while still getting great grades. If you need to start slow with 1 or 2 courses do so. Better to not destroy your changes. Taking classes now does not mean you need A's and A+'s only but it does mean reflect on your academic strength. Overloading, whether the first semester or later semester will doom you. But going light will not reflect your abilities. You just want to paint an honest picture of what you can do for when you apply.

 

[runnergal]

I would suggest you take as many courses as you can handle for your particular life situation as you can while still getting great grades. If you need to start slow with 1 or 2 courses do so. Better to not destroy your changes. Taking classes now does not mean you need A's and A+'s only but it does mean reflect on your academic strength. Overloading, whether the first semester or later semester will doom you. But going light will not reflect your abilities. You just want to paint an honest picture of what you can do for when you apply.

yeah, I did the math, I need 3.9 over 56 credits (includes one year of calc) to get a cGPA of 3.00+ and sGPA 3.4+ for AMCAS .... just gonna shoot for that bc I know with grade replacement for Osteo, I'll be set with applications for Osteo if I shoot for AMCAS goals ....

(I did not add in my Masters grades.... I don't know if any of them are able to be listed in the Cumulative GPA portion of my grade calculation. Do you know what the rule is for AAMCOS or AMCAS ?? I took two Biostatistics courses and Epidemiology courses with A/A-s so wondering if that is allowed in the calculation)
.....does anyone know this off-top?

Your advice is essentially what I will be doing...

Thanks!

 

[Y = bX+a]

yeah, I did the math, I need 3.9 over 56 credits (includes one year of calc) to get a cGPA of 3.00+ and sGPA 3.4+ for AMCAS .... just gonna shoot for that bc I know with grade replacement for Osteo, I'll be set with applications for Osteo if I shoot for AMCAS goals ....

(I did not add in my Masters grades.... I don't know if any of them are able to be listed in the Cumulative GPA portion of my grade calculation. Do you know what the rule is for AAMCOS or AMCAS ?? I took two Biostatistics courses and Epidemiology courses with A/A-s so wondering if that is allowed in the calculation)
.....does anyone know this off-top?

Your advice is essentially what I will be doing...

Thanks!

Hi Runner,

I appreciate your situation and had some of the same questions as you do. From some responses to one of my posts (particularly regarding grad GPA) I believe that the AMCAS grad GPA is separate from uGPA, and that all graduate courswork is combined into one GPA. From my understanding, this means that all masters and doctoral level work all gets lumped together into one grad GPA.

I will also be sending you a PM later with some additional thoughts on your current situation.

Look forward to future discussions

Y

 

[NonTradJp]

yeah, I did the math, I need 3.9 over 56 credits (includes one year of calc) to get a cGPA of 3.00+ and sGPA 3.4+ for AMCAS .... just gonna shoot for that bc I know with grade replacement for Osteo, I'll be set with applications for Osteo if I shoot for AMCAS goals ....

(I did not add in my Masters grades.... I don't know if any of them are able to be listed in the Cumulative GPA portion of my grade calculation. Do you know what the rule is for AAMCOS or AMCAS ?? I took two Biostatistics courses and Epidemiology courses with A/A-s so wondering if that is allowed in the calculation)
.....does anyone know this off-top?

Your advice is essentially what I will be doing...

Thanks!

Hi Runner, For AMCAS, all graduate degree granting courses are summed up together in grad gpa. Essentially if your grad grades are sub 3.0 they reflect negatively on you. This is the impression I got when reading posts for people who served as AdComs. And if your undergrad gpa is low a high grad gpa helps a little bit by lowering the anxiety of the reviewers.

Essentially you need to do well in the undergrad level classes now. Most schools look favorably on strong recent trend of 1.5 years+ so even if your gpa moves very little, make sure your last 30+ units are solid. A few schools would value recent grades even more. No matter the situation or plans, the best policy is simply focus on doing well in school while taking up extra curricular's that demonstrate the values schools want in a physician: dedication, perseverance, reflection, maturity, altruism, intelligence, etc.