Post-Bacc Programs vs. Do-It-Yourself

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

MaenadsDance

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
482
Reaction score
9
Points
4,591
Location
California
  1. Pre-Medical
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Hi! This is my first post in this forum, and this entire site looks like a fabulous resource; I'm so glad a friend of mine (also hoping to become a doctor) pointed me in your direction.

My major question is whether it's better to take pre-med pre-reqs at an established post-baccalaureate program geared toward non-traditional students, or whether taking regular undergraduate courses at a state university could accomplish the same ends?

Here's the background info: I'm currently a rising senior at St John's College in Annapolis, MD. St John's is a four-year Great Books school with no majors and no electives - everybody takes four years of philosophy and literature, four years of mathematics, three years of history of science, two years of Ancient Greek, two years of French, and two years of music. It's a small school, but out of the average graduating class of 100 usually one or two go on to become doctors. Because St John's is such a non-traditional school, aside from Calculus I will have none of my pre-medical pre-requisites completed once I graduate.

My friend, who is a year ahead of me (ie, just graduated) from St John's applied for several post-baccalaureate programs, and was waitlisted at three, including John Hopkins; her experiences - namely, that she's going to have to work and wait for another year before even beginning her pre-reqs - has made me all the more inclined toward getting my pre-medical pre-requisites done at University of Maryland, College Park. My grades are good - 3.8 GPA - and I have no doubt that I would be accepted as a transfer student once I graduate from St John's. I'm currently corresponding with their transfer center about getting my credits at St John's analyzed for transfer credit!

My plan, when I graduate St John's in 2012, would be to take Gen Chem, Physics, and Biology Fall/Spring of 2012/2013, Organic Chemistry in the summer of 2013, and then take the year to apply for medical schools/take the MCAT/etc etc. Is this feasible? Is that timetable right? I am really tempted to try to complete a second BS in biology during the year that I apply for medical schools - it would avoid staying out of a bad job market, provide me with further qualifications, and also help prepare me - hopefully - for the first two years of med school.

However, I've read some stuff that makes me believe that Med Schools look more favorably upon pre-established pre-med post-bacc programs than upon non-traditional students who take the courses piecemeal.

Thanks so much for your time - while there are some doctors in my family, they're all practicing out of Australia, and my parents are both liberal arts majors with no idea how to negotiate the byzantine system that is medical school admissions. While I know I have the ability to do well in the pre-med pre-reqs and on the MCAT - I'm good at taking tests and was a National Merit Scholar - I'm nervous that I'm going to mess up the timetables and the other intangible things like volunteering, research, etc etc.
 
I'm sure others will have more to say about this, but here are my thoughts:

- UMD College Park is a fine place to take your prereqs. I don't think any admissions committee is going to look down at prereqs taken at a flagship state university ranked #56 in US News. But you might not receive the same level of guidance that you would get in an organized postbac program. I'd say that if you can get in-state tuition, UMD makes a lot of sense. If you'd have to pay out of state tuition, maybe you should go to an organized postbac program at Hopkins or Goucher or somewhere like that.

- Most people start the application process in June of the year before they want to enroll in medical school. If you want to apply for matriculation in the fall of 2014, you probably shouldn't be taking orgo in the summer of 2013. You wouldn't be able to take the MCAT until after you finished orgo, and at that point you'd be looking at starting your applications in September at the earliest. Given that medical school admission is done on a semi-rolling basis, this is probably not a good strategy. A better idea would be to take general chemistry the summer after you graduate from St. Johns and then take orgo during the following school year along with bio and physics. (This will be a hell of a course load, but if you're going to be a full time student, I'd argue it's doable.) Then you can take the MCAT in late spring/early summer of 2013 and apply in June.
 
Get A's at a rigorous institution (not community college), and get some solid LORs. Learn the material for a good MCAT score. Mostly it is about you and not the school, but it should ve a good one.
 
Thanks so much for the feedback!

Part of the reason I've been hesitant to take Gen Chem the summer after I graduate St John's is that my first, last, and only real opportunity to get any research experience may be that summer - and I don't know if I'd have time to take chemistry classes while working that summer. I have an opportunity to go to Singapore and work at a biotech firm through some contacts in the family, and it might honestly make more sense to leap at an awesome opportunity like that and then have to take the extra year applying for med schools in 2015 rather than 2014 than pass up my best opportunity at getting some research experience under my belt.
 
Thanks so much for the feedback!

Part of the reason I've been hesitant to take Gen Chem the summer after I graduate St John's is that my first, last, and only real opportunity to get any research experience may be that summer - and I don't know if I'd have time to take chemistry classes while working that summer. I have an opportunity to go to Singapore and work at a biotech firm through some contacts in the family, and it might honestly make more sense to leap at an awesome opportunity like that and then have to take the extra year applying for med schools in 2015 rather than 2014 than pass up my best opportunity at getting some research experience under my belt.

Is it only chem 1, or is it a combined chem 1 and 2? If only chem 1, do the research. The genchem to ochem series takes two years, and many places don't offer chem 2 or ochem 2 in the fall, so it won't do you much good to get chem 1 done in summer. Even if it is the combined chem 1+2, depending on how many other classes you have to take 1 year might not be enough time to take all those classes and prepare for the MCAT. I didn't have any research and I felt like it hurt my application.

Regarding being in an 'official' program, I don't think it matters. Sometimes being part of the program has benefits like priority registration and advising, but if the requirements are too onerous just take the classes piecemeal.

Edit: gen chem, bio and physics is a very heavy load. Remember, each of those classes also have a lab.
Fall 2012: chem1, bio1, calculus
Spring 2013: chem2, physics1, elective (genetics, physiology, molecular cell bio, anatomy, statistics)
Summer: elective, elective
Fall 2013: ochem1, physics 2, elective
Spring 2014: ochem2, bio2, MCAT class
May 2014: MCAT
Summer 2014: application
Fall 2014 and spring 2015 interviews / job as ER tech, scribe, research, learn Spanish spend a few months in south america/spain
Start med school Fall 2015

You might have to take all bio the first year then all physics the 2nd, but if possible I would do it like this. Bio 1 is good to take first before you start the electives, but it's good to have physics done by the time you're studying for the MCAT.

I wouldn't waste money on a BS in biology. What good will it do you? They'll teach you everything you need to know in med school. The work experience and/or learning another language will be much more useful.

Just may advice, mileage may vary.
 
Last edited:
As somebody who sits on the admission committee and did a DIY post-bacc, I can tell you that DIY is just the same. UMD would be great. Your GPA is fine, you can even take the MCAT after orgo 1 (not later than mid-july), get your app in as soon as it opens, and take orgo 2 during summer 2. That way your application will be on time and your MCAT score will be verified in August. This way you don't have to take a year off. Just make sure you'll do fine on the MCAT. It's going to be the hell of a year (speaking from experience) to get As in all the prereqs and do well on the MCAT. At the end, think about the fact that every year you are delayed you are missing out on attending's salary. It made the effort well worth it to me. Good luck.
 
Plauto - from everything I've read on this forum in the past few days it's best to get your apps in as early as possible - to what extent will it decrease my chances of getting in to apply later in the game?
 
Plauto - from everything I've read on this forum in the past few days it's best to get your apps in as early as possible - to what extent will it decrease my chances of getting in to apply later in the game?

You will not be applying late. Have your application completed as soon as amcas opens it and take your mcat by mid- July. Scores will be in before the end of august and your application will already be verified. You will not be applying late this way. Just know that you gotta do well on the mcat, there will be no turning back.
 
Last edited:
One thing to keep in mind, the intro biology courses might not cover everything that is on the MCAT. So you need to make a personal decision whether to take a supplemental class (genetics, physiology, microbiology, cell biology) or to just try to learn it via a prep course. This is something I will wrestle with (think about) up until the end of the spring.
 
Thanks for the excellent feedback, everyone. NuttyEngDude, your point is especially well-taken.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
As someone who just finished up his DIY postbac at UMD, I feel well qualified to comment here.

1) Almost went to St. John's for my undergrad. Got accepted as a junior (they often let in folks who haven't quite finished high school yet). So I suppose you are alterna-me.

2) Singapore is amazing, provided your idea of a good time is not getting tore up and clubbing. It is not that sort of town. William Gibson said it best when he said that it was Disneyland with the death penalty. Everything just works, and food is amazing everywhere and cheap. Everything else is very expensive. Singapore has a higher GDP per capi.ta than the US, after all. However, you will be in one of Air Asia's hubs, so if you can drop a hundred bucks for a long weekend, you can spend it in Bangkok or Bali or Siem Reap. So it will be the experience of a lifetime if you do it. There is also a medical school (NUS) in Singapore run in collaboration with Duke; if you like it well enough to stay, this is not the most horrible option.

It is highly unlikely that you will learn another language in a meaningful way in Singapore. Literally everyone you encounter will speak English (former British colony). It would take a really deliberate effort to learn much of Malay or Cantonese or Hokkien or Mandarin or Tamil, and people would think you are sort of weird for doing it. It will be complicated by the fact that there is not a common non-English language, really - which is why everyone speaks English professionally

3) At UMD, be very careful with your chemistry instructors. With a St. John's education, you shouldn't have trouble with biology or algebra-based physics. Most of the instructors are lovely and these classes will cater to your skill set. The UMD chemistry department is renowned, however, for being uniquely full of bitter and incompetent instructors at the undergraduate level, especially in classes taught out of term. During the summer, they bring out the third-stringers, and they do not make up for their lack of teaching ability with niceness. Jones is quite nasty to deal with, but ultimately fair. Kipnis should be avoided at all costs - his day job is running the stock room, and it shows. For Orgo, if you can pull Khachik at all, do it. He doesn't have to curve his exams and is exceptionally reasonable and easy to follow during lecture.

4) VERY IMPORTANT NOTE FOR UMD - they will not let you take the second semester of general chemistry without having completed organic chemistry. All of it. They are exceptionally rigid on this point, and all the other UMD premeds will be following this sequence. Maybe you will have better luck persuading the department chairman to allow you to break sequence, but you will have to fight hard. I was not successful.

5) The pre-reqs fill up very fast. Be prepared for dumb schedules as a non-degree seeking student.

TL;DR St John's is awesome, so's Singapore, UMD chemists are often bad people.
 
Last edited:
Nice to see another Johnnie on SDN:welcome: I graduated from Annapolis in '06.
I'm personally gearing up to start a DIY post-bac next year and I'll be doing 2 years of classes plus an application year. As far as I've gathered, it really doesn't matter if you go through a formal program or DIY, as long as you get good grades (all As) in the pre-reqs.

The only thing that would be different is a Special Masters Program (SMP) which is essentially doing the first year of med school at a med school to prove you can do med school. However, this is an expensive, last resort kind of option- like if you've done the pre-reqs but still don't get in and don't have great grades (but you still need a 3.0 to get accepted to most SMPs). Not what you need.

Personally I'd recommend this Singapore opportunity you mentioned in your post. Live a little before you're bogged down in the long-ass process of med school 🙂 I've been travelling and teaching English since I graduated and I don't regret a minute of it- even if I am getting in the game a little later than some.

Also, go talk to Kathleen Cady in the Career Services Office. 1) She's super friendly and knows a lot. 2) She's got the contact and some info from another alumna who did a DIY post-bac at UMD, and is willing to answer specific questions about it, which is really helpful.

Good luck and PM me if you have SJC-specific questions. I don't have all the answers, but I've been doing a lot of research, so maybe I can answer a few.

EDIT: Also, if you want some research experience during your senior year, go talk to Mr. Maistrellis or Ms. Paalman. They share a lab in Mellon and do some low-key research (or did when I was there- I worked for Mr. M). If they don't need any help at the moment, they also have contacts for other people who might. They could also help hook you up with some shadowing opportunities.
 
Last edited:
Oh my goodness, another Johnnie! Thank you so much for the advice. Ms. Paalman is actually assistant dean right now (so I doubt she's doing any research) but I will definitely get in touch with Mr. Maistrellis.
 
As someone who just finished up his DIY postbac at UMD, I feel well qualified to comment here.


3) At UMD, be very careful with your chemistry instructors. With a St. John's education, you shouldn't have trouble with biology or algebra-based physics. Most of the instructors are lovely and these classes will cater to your skill set. The UMD chemistry department is renowned, however, for being uniquely full of bitter and incompetent instructors at the undergraduate level, especially in classes taught out of term. During the summer, they bring out the third-stringers, and they do not make up for their lack of teaching ability with niceness. Jones is quite nasty to deal with, but ultimately fair. Kipnis should be avoided at all costs - his day job is running the stock room, and it shows. For Orgo, if you can pull Khachik at all, do it. He doesn't have to curve his exams and is exceptionally reasonable and easy to follow during lecture.

4) VERY IMPORTANT NOTE FOR UMD - they will not let you take the second semester of general chemistry without having completed organic chemistry. All of it. They are exceptionally rigid on this point, and all the other UMD premeds will be following this sequence. Maybe you will have better luck persuading the department chairman to allow you to break sequence, but you will have to fight hard. I was not successful.

5) The pre-reqs fill up very fast. Be prepared for dumb schedules as a non-degree seeking student.

TL;DR St John's is awesome, so's Singapore, UMD chemists are often bad people.


Wait, so the sequence at UMD is Gen Chem I, then Orgo I and II, and then Gen Chem II? That's so weird! Any idea why they do it that way? I've never heard of a school doing that before.

Thanks so much for the UMD specific advice, I'm going to bookmark this thread for perusal in a year's time when I'll actually be selecting classes/instructors. This is such an amazingly helpful forum.
 
Oh my goodness, another Johnnie! Thank you so much for the advice. Ms. Paalman is actually assistant dean right now (so I doubt she's doing any research) but I will definitely get in touch with Mr. Maistrellis.

In that case, she may be busy, though it couldn't hurt to ask. Also she has an MD, and does like to counsel students looking at the med school path, so at least touch base.
Mr. Maistrellis was doing ecology work when I was there (the marsh is his doing). Tell him ___ says hi.🙂
 
Last edited:
Wait, so the sequence at UMD is Gen Chem I, then Orgo I and II, and then Gen Chem II? That's so weird! Any idea why they do it that way? I've never heard of a school doing that before.

Thanks so much for the UMD specific advice, I'm going to bookmark this thread for perusal in a year's time when I'll actually be selecting classes/instructors. This is such an amazingly helpful forum.

They do it this way ostensibly so that they include orgo material and examples in the discussions of physical chemistry in Gen Chem II. I was similarly flummoxed when I encountered this problem - actually got pre-emptively dropped from a Gen Chem II class I signed up for by the department because I didn't have Orgo II yet. So they are reasonable vigilant in making people follow the sequence.

Maybe their physical chemists just want to have already weeded out the weaker students before they have to teach them?
 
Top Bottom