Post-bacc vs undegrad

[blankguy]

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I was curious as to how people(admissions) view post-bacc vs undergrad.

I'm not talking about the usual thing that post-bacc are older and more mature, etc....

But if somebody when to a very competitive undergrad school(like an ivy school, MIT, Stanford, etc...) and then did a post-bacc at a less competitive school, will admissions people view this person as, "this guy is a ivy league material but wanted a career change"
and be accorded the same respect as if had been applying to them directly from an ivy league school?

 

[Tabstar]

I think all the Adcoms look at are the DAT scores, GPA, and judge you on your potential commitment and contributions to the Dental Profession. Don't worry about Ivy League this and that college reputations. Because everybody has their own personal opinions about what colleges are the best, the best college for your field, or the best value for money, or the best job placement after graduation, etc. There are so many ways to judge a school. They are not evaluating the school; they are evaluating the applicant.

You can go to Community College for all they care. Just get good grades and ace your DATS.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

[honestpredent]

They weigh undergrad higher than post-bac. Most post-bac students have really high GPA's because they are more motivated. But the true sign of consistency is during undergrad. It may seem unfair since many post-bac students work incredibly hard in taking many difficult science classes at once. But there is a penalty to be paid for being a late bloomer.

Don't worry about your school reputation. Worry about your major. A 3.5 in engineering or math from a public school is far more impressive than a 3.5 in a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school. All arguments aside, no one can deny that the workload in a major like engineering or mathematics is greater than the workload in a liberal arts major. That doesn't mean engineering majors are brigher or are more valuable, but they were required to do more work to fulfill their major than say a sociology major.

The more difficult your major, the more impressed adcoms will be to see high grades in those.

 

[blankguy]

I've been told by admissions people that they stress the most recent course work. How does that fit in to this?

Also taking courses for longer period(assuming a reasonable course load of 2 or 3 course per semester) for say 3 yrs, help to sway that a great post-bacc GPA isn't just a freak accident?
Afterall 3 yrs that's almost the duration of undergrad.

 

[honestpredent]

But you forgot what your question asked. The question was how does undergrad compare to post-bac. A person who graduates with a 3.6 GPA is going to have a better chance of getting into dental school that a person with a 3.0 overall and a 4.0 post-bac.

If your question is can post bac help you get into dental school. Yes, it can but you aren't going to be given more weight than someone who has a better GPA in undergrad.

After all, there are a lot of people on here who did post bac and graduated near a 4.0. Even they can tell you that certain schools will not admit them regardless of their post bac success. That's just how it is.

Did you ask the adcoms this question? What did they say?

 

[blankguy]

The original question I asked was how does somebody who did undergrad at a competitive school and then did a post-bacc at a less competitive institution get looked at by the adcoms vs somebody who applies straight from undergrad. There will a significant gap between undergrad and post-bacc.

Also the adcoms at Tufts stated they stress recent course work. What does this mean? Do they calculate a separate GPA for say the last 64 or 90 semester hours? I'm curious as to what other people have been told or think of this.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by blankguy
The original question I asked was how does somebody who did undergrad at a competitive school and then did a post-bacc at a less competitive institution get looked at by the adcoms vs somebody who applies straight from undergrad. There will a significant gap between undergrad and post-bacc.

Also the adcoms at Tufts stated they stress recent course work. What does this mean? Do they calculate a separate GPA for say the last 64 or 90 semester hours? I'm curious as to what other people have been told or think of this.

I don't think it matters where you do your post-bac. The adcoms I spoke with didn't really seem to care. As long as you are taking difficult classes in your post-bac, that's all that matters. Biochem is going to be tough wherever you take it. I think most adcoms know this. Just get A's and you will be good.

No, they don't calculate a separate GPA; don't we wish. They just don't have time to do that. And plus they don't really care about doing it. However, they will obviously see that trend in grades. After all, if your last 60 hours were full of A's, that will stand out by itself. You will have to call attention to it as well. Mention it in your personal statement. If you can get some formal degree or certificate out of your post-bac, make sure and do so. After all, a formal degree like a Masters or B.S. in a post-bac will be a lot easier for an adcom to see than merely some classes.

 

[blankguy]

I'm getting the idea that since a lot of post-bacc have great GPAs they use the undergrad GPA to weedout the lesser candidates among the crowd sort of a tiebreaker of sorts.

Also if they don't have time to calculate a separate GPA would they not have any time to look at trends either. Since talking to couple of schools(BU, and Tufts) they would easily be dealing with 2000 applications + or - 500.

Not to go off too far on a tangent. I've been told by a student who took biochem and orgo, that biochem is easier than orgo.
Is this consistent to what people think of these 2 courses?

 

[Mackchops]

I think it really comes down to a large number of factors. To say that a top Dental school is not going to be impressed by someone who can pull off two to three years of straight A work despite a rough start just does not make sense -- regardless of where it was acheived. Of course, on top of this you need to post impressive DATs, show committment to Dentistry through volunteer work, etc. Factored into the "whole picture" evaluation will certainly be your undergrad institution and where you went for post-bac. It goes without saying that if you have a 2.8 at a top school you're not getting into a top notch post-bac like goucher or BMC -- I've heard their averages are damn near 3.5 to begin with. So, you go to the best post-bac program you can, do the best you can do, prove that not only is dentistry something you want to pursue but you have the intelligence and (new-found) maturity to succeed (while explaining why it wasn't there before) and you stand a good chance at any decent school. Go to the Post-bac forum (nice to read but impossible to post in) and you'll read about folks who had 2.4s in undergrad but got into pretty decent MEDICAL schools -- generally a more difficult task than getting into dental school.

Any school you talk to will say they are impressed by trends. You just need to explain it.

Just curious Blankguy, but could you tell us more of your situation? I'm particularly interested in where you're going for post-bac?

 

[blankguy]

mcataz,
I haven't looked at such forms.


Markchops,
I went to Brandeis University undergrad. GPA coming out of it was something like 2.61. Had to take sometime off to clear my head after having a really disastrous 2nd year. Finishied it up okay. Took me 6 years because the time off I had to take.
The killer was that I was stupid enough to attempt to retake orgo and get Fs on it when I knew I didn't have the motivation(I think I did that 2 or 3 times).

Since my GPA is too low to be officially admitted to any post-bacc and I don't have too much $$$$. I decided to take courses at UMass-Boston. Kinda shocking to go from Brandeis to UMass-Boston. The intangible benefits I get from Umass is that I lot of students are not the traditional undegrad types, I rubbed elbows with people doing their undergrad at 28. Also I get put in to "regular" day classes just like traditional undergrad courses.
The Harvard extension school is the same way but it schedules one 3 hr lecture a week and I was worried with hunting the professors to ask questions for the rest of the week.

 

[honestpredent]

As you already know you have a huge road ahead of you. Not only do you need to achieve at least 3.5 in your post bac but you need DAT scores above 20 to stand a good chance of getting into some dental school. I would just focus on your post bac for now. Once you handle that. Study for the DAT. Meanwhile, network with as many adcoms as you can so they get to know you on a first name basis.

 

[honestpredent]

Originally posted by Mackchops
I think it really comes down to a large number of factors. To say that a top Dental school is not going to be impressed by someone who can pull off two to three years of straight A work despite a rough start just does not make sense -- regardless of where it was acheived. Of course, on top of this you need to post impressive DATs, show committment to Dentistry through volunteer work, etc. Factored into the "whole picture" evaluation will certainly be your undergrad institution and where you went for post-bac. It goes without saying that if you have a 2.8 at a top school you're not getting into a top notch post-bac like goucher or BMC -- I've heard their averages are damn near 3.5 to begin with. So, you go to the best post-bac program you can, do the best you can do, prove that not only is dentistry something you want to pursue but you have the intelligence and (new-found) maturity to succeed (while explaining why it wasn't there before) and you stand a good chance at any decent school. Go to the Post-bac forum (nice to read but impossible to post in) and you'll read about folks who had 2.4s in undergrad but got into pretty decent MEDICAL schools -- generally a more difficult task than getting into dental school.

Any school you talk to will say they are impressed by trends. You just need to explain it.

Just curious Blankguy, but could you tell us more of your situation? I'm particularly interested in where you're going for post-bac?

I agree with most of this. I suppose the only thing I disagree with his your remark about a top dental school. Most top dental schools aren't so forgiving. Needless to say, blankguy would be fortunate to get into any dental school with his situation as I'm sure he knows. This isn't meant to put him down. Some of the best dental students were so so undergraduate students. So I don't think he needs to compare top dental schools with the others.

 

[predental03]

I wasnt sure where to stick this, but since ya'll are talking about postbacc maybe someone can help............

Does anyone know of a postbacc program for predent in Oklahoma? I've been doing some research but haven't found anything. Thanks!!

Britt

 

[blankguy]

Originally posted by honestpredent
As you already know you have a huge road ahead of you. Not only do you need to achieve at least 3.5 in your post bac but you need DAT scores above 20 to stand a good chance of getting into some dental school. I would just focus on your post bac for now. Once you handle that. Study for the DAT. Meanwhile, network with as many adcoms as you can so they get to know you on a first name basis.

How do I network with adcoms? Also I looked at the website for Tufts and they list a couple of people, who should I contact in those cases? Who is liable to have their opinions weighed more heavily in an admission committee? I did contact BU and Tufts couple of times when I was starting out last summer.

 

[Mackchops]

Blankguy, I don't know how many formal post-bac programs you've looked into, but your GPA does not automatically exclude you from every one -- especially if you graduated from a top school and you've been doing some work on your own at Umass-Boston. The general trend that I've seen from the responses I've been getting from contacting these programs is that they want to have a reason to admit you. Brandeis' post-bac program claims on its website that applicants must have a minimum 3.0 while the director there told me that 3.0 is just about average for accepted students. Portland State in Oregon only requires a 2.25 I think for out-of state-applicants to their second-bachelors program. So I agree that you should try networking with different adcoms -- for post-bac and dental programs and gather as much information as you can about how different programs might be able to cater to your situation. The way I did this was to just send a quick introductory email asking for some information and giving some quick stats about myself. Then I asked a question particular to my circumstances (whether they would recommend I take physics next semester at my undergrad) to try to entice a personal response. And, for the most part, it worked. I also asked them to let me know if they would prefer me to call to pose my question. PM me if you wanna chat.

 

[savvysearch]

Originally posted by mcataz

No, they don't calculate a separate GPA; don't we wish. They just don't have time to do that. And plus they don't really care about doing it.

Are you sure about that? On my white Aadsas file, there is a separate category for undergraduate and graduate and a third category for cumulative at the upper right hand corner. I though post-bac would be placed in the category that is the graduate GPA, if it is a formal post-bac program. There would be a separate gpa for graduate classes and that would be added to the undergrad gpa in the cumulative.

Doesn't post-bac mean graduate? Unless Masters mean graduate, then forget what I said.

 

[Mromar]

blankguy,

As others have commented, I think it would depend on the school itself. I know that UOP does not really care where you take the courses, as long as you get them done. And get good DAT scores and can come up with the $$$ if accepted. When I spoke with them, I specifically asked about the course at a 4-year school, JC, Post-Bac programs, and some of these newer accelerated programs.

Guess it would depend on the school and what they like or dislike. I do not see the importance in where the courses are completed, as all of my friends who went through dental school and are practicing dentists, completed their pre-req's at a JC and then went on to dental school.

Hey, these people have been out for some years now, so there is something to be said about JC/CC courses. Of course, I live in Cali, and the 4-year. CSU, Private schools are quite costly, so we are left to go to JC's anyhow. I have also learned form them that I should get to know the admissions people at the school(s) I am interested in, kind of like brown-nosing out, but also not like it at all.

 

[blankguy]

Thanks guys!
I realize that my odds at this point is like the odds of winning the lottery 🙁

Mromar,
Eventhough you have a point since on an interview anything goes(if I reach that point), I would have to give an answer to that. People mention that UOP is 3 yrs. What I'm wondering about is the education at that school might be rushed.


Markchops,
I did talk to Jennifer Lewis but given my history at Brandeis, I think they might be convinced if I passed Orgo somewhere else.
Also they require GRE score plus the cost $$$$$ its not cheap.

 

[Mromar]

blankguy,

It is true that UOP is only 3 years, though you get really good clinic work/experience there, and while many people are still doing their 4th year somewhere, you could be (a) working and making $$$, or (b) beginning your specialization program. Most of my friends who are dentists now went to UOP, and I have actually been to the campus/clinic itself. Very nice place, and in a good part of San Fran.

I am hoping to just get through these P/C/B classes, do well on my DAT, and then apply. Some of the people I have known that got into dental programs did not have stellar undergrad grades, nor were their DAT scores anything special. And they got into UOP. Each of them went to a small CSU school here in Cali, and also wrote good personal statements. To add to that, each of them took their P/C/B course at JC's. A friend of mine now is taking the courses at a JC, and they have been out of school for about 4 or 5 years now.

You seem like you have been in contact with admissions people already, and they are aware of your application and desire to attend their school. Though I feel you will get in somewhere and then look back at all of this and laugh.

Just my thoughts.

 

[blankguy]

I wouldn't call my contact with admissions people as something worth noting since it was more like:
Me: "I've been out of school for quite sometime and I've taken some of the requirements awhile ago"
Them: "Was it within the last 2 yrs?"
Me" uh, no something like 10 yrs ago"
Them: "Take it again you'll need it for the DAT"
(Hangs up phone)

Not the type of contact where you get to know them or they get to know you. Sort of like asking a yes or no question and ending it there.

You are right in that I don't have the time horizon that some of the younger members at SDN have.

It's just that after having the disastrous record(which includes probation and being asked to take time off) leaves a very heavy emotional burden on me(yea I know it was a while ago and I should get over it).

Oh well. I guess I have to pick my spots and really kick ass on the DAT. I've been reviewing chemistry(doing all the problem sets 4 months worth of classwork in 2 weeks ). I guess I am a bit weird sometimes coming across here on SDN as unsure but when I hit the books I put my gameface on. Sort of like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde(No! I don't have a psychological disorder😛 )

The school that interests me the most is Tufts but they require biochem which means I have to accelerate my timetable to get that done after orgo.(Seriously considering doing that in the summer.) Not to mention that this school is way of a reach for me, but then again so is any dental school at this point.

I want to add that at this point what I need more than anything else is advice on how to go about taking all the requirements? Admissions people are good at telling you what they like to see, i.e. result. I talked to the Tufts people and they told me "2 or 3 courses depending on the work schedule". The post-bacc director at Brandeis told me "our students generally cannot hold a full time job because they take the courses during the daytime with the undergrads". What scares me of SDN is that people here exceed this by a lot? If I do anything less I feel that I am defying them at my own risk.

 

[Mromar]

Hmm....Interesting situation. Similar to the one I am about to be in; I will be working full-time (or real close to it) and getting my requirements done. I am not sure how they view you taking 3 courses vs 2, though people I have know that were following this same plan, only took 2 classes at a time (work committments and one even had a family). Granted, these people were younger than probably both of us, though I have know people who did not begin dental school until they were between 30-36 (I remember meeting a person at UOP who was 40 and just started dental school).

I have heard good things about the program at Tufts, and I would not rush too much on the requirements. Would you rather do the requirements in a timely manner (and get good grades of course..), or would you cram too much in too fast, get a grade lower than what you want, and possibly not perform as well on the DAT because not enough time was given to fully absorb the information?. For me, I am planning on taking 2 courses at a time, with summer sessions and winter sessions if possible. I too am reading review books on chem, bio, and physics, and I am even considering enrolling in some intro/prep courses in chemistry (I have not touched it in awhile, and want to give myself the best chance possible in mastering the subject).

Guess I will have to find out once I get my hands dirty and get back into studying (a lot!) again.

 

[blankguy]

The problem with having Biochem as a requirement is that I have to take orgo first. I need to get them all out of the way first. If I take orgo next year (and Bio) then take the DAT, I still wouldn't be able to apply since I would be in the process of taking Biochem, wasting one year after the DAT to take it. I want it so that I can get 2 cracks(2 yrs) of applying right after taking the DAT otherwise I'll just have 1 yr of applying and then retake the DAT.

Currently I'm working part time and still turning out to be a pain in the neck, between work mode and study mode.😳

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by savvysearch
Are you sure about that? On my white Aadsas file, there is a separate category for undergraduate and graduate and a third category for cumulative at the upper right hand corner. I though post-bac would be placed in the category that is the graduate GPA, if it is a formal post-bac program. There would be a separate gpa for graduate classes and that would be added to the undergrad gpa in the cumulative.

Doesn't post-bac mean graduate? Unless Masters mean graduate, then forget what I said.

No, post-bac classes are still undergraduate classes and thus are averaged into your overall and science undergraduate GPA.

Masters means graduate

 

[blankguy]

I don't get it. Mcataz, are you saying that everything gets averaged out(undergrad) but they also get to look at your academic history.

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by blankguy
I don't get it. Mcataz, are you saying that everything gets averaged out(undergrad) but they also get to look at your academic history.

That's exactly what I'm saying. This is hard for you to comprehend because you haven't filled out an AADSAS form yet.

When you fill that form out, you list every class at every school you took in chronological order. Thus, your entire academic record wil be on display. However, at the top of the page will be listed your overall GPA, non-science GPA, and science GPA.

In addition, there will be a section on there that will list your GPA for each school attended. So if you attended 3 different colleges and you averaged

Harvard 60 hours 3.76
Ohio U 20 hours 3.12
Brown 120 hours 3.45

It will be listed like that in a separate section. So they will be able to see your trend in grades as well as you overall GPA/science GPA and your GPA at each individual college.

In short, a dental school will not miss your trend in grades. They may choose to ignore it or give it less weight. However, they won't fail to see your positive trend in grades toward the end. So in other words, you will have to apply to schools that favor a positive trend in grades. The schools that do this are UOP, Detroit Mercy, NYU, BU, Temple, Nova for sure. With other schools, it all depends. I think if your DAT is outstanding, maybe even Penn and Columbia will look at you too provided you apply in May, the earliest time possible.

 

[blankguy]

Yeah, I'm just dragging this out needlessly, but it does have a price if it doesn't show at the top. Admissions people may or may not want to bother skimming all the way to the most recent grades.🙄 Nothing I can do about that at this point other than kickass on the courses I take from now on.😡

 

[mcataz]

Originally posted by blankguy
Yeah, I'm just dragging this out needlessly, but it does have a price if it doesn't show at the top. Admissions people may or may not want to bother skimming all the way to the most recent grades.🙄 Nothing I can do about that at this point other than kickass on the courses I take from now on.😡

Blankguy

I can understand your concern. Many of us are in your situation. But really man, you are being way too pessimistic to the point that you are being irrational. You simply haven't thought about these issues with a clear head. It seems like you are pouting. If you have that attitude then why bother applying to dental school? What's the point of always asking what if? Why don't you just say you will do it and then accomplish your goal.

If an adcom is too lazy to simply turn 2 pages and look at your trend in grades, then the chances are he or she probably already threw your application in the trash based on your numbers long before that. Fine, that's going to happen to us. We can't change that. But there will be schools that will give us a chance and that's all that matters.

Sure, I think some schools are all about the numbers initally. I don't think any of us will have a prayer at Harvard and UCLA regardless of our trend in grades.

But the vast majority of schools read your application and they do consider your trend in grades. Yah-E got into several good schools with a low GPA. So you need to chill out and just worry about your grades and DAT's first.

Finally, I want to end this by saying it is up to you how much attention you bring to your new grades. If you write about it in your personal statement and have a profesor from this program write you a letter of rec, that's certainly going to cause many adcom's to check out your new grades.

 

[blankguy]

Yeah, I need to wake up. But I've gotten off to a promising start aceing general chem. The thing that's important than grades is to know what A type effort is, and feel comfortable with it. I think what we have going for us is that there is a gap between our mediocre undergrad grades and now. So far I'm just getting my feet wet. I intend to hit next semester with a vengeance.