Postbacc question, Sub 3.0 UG

[threemileisle]

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Hey all, I've browsed through hundreds of your posts on this forum and elsewhere and, amazingly, I still can't find a definitive answer. I'm not sure if this deserves its own thread as there are similar ones floating around, but I do feel that post-bacc programs could use clarification. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the synopsis: Resident of CA and screwed up as a bio undergrad before graduating 2 years ago. As it stands now, dental school admission is out of the question. With a terrible GPA, sci 2.5, overall 2.7, both a formal postbacc program and any sort of grad program are unlikely.

For the sake of precision, I'll list my questions numerically.

1) A. Specifically, when used by those in search of a GPA booster, what does an informal post-bacc entail?
B. Do most people re-take the courses that they performed poorly in before taking additional upper level science courses, or do they immediately dive into the most rigorous science classes that they can find?

2) Relatedly, I've found some schools that offer 2nd-bac programs. The advantage is that it keeps financial aid available while giving higher priority for class registration. The question: if both factor into GPA (do they? see question 4), what advantage is there to an open informal postbacc where one structures their own schedule, while losing financial aid and registration priority? Why wouldn't everybody pursue a second UG degree while also raising their GPA?

3) A. When one re-takes a course, is the former grade wiped away?
B. If not, there's no point in re-taking those courses/pre-reqs, correct?

4) On predents.com, I see postbacc GPA listed separately from UG GPA.
A. Does postbacc GPA have no effect on UG GPA, or is it averaged with the UG GPA?
B. For example, two years of a 4.0 postbacc GPA raises an overall undergrad GPA from a 2.5 to a 3.0. Would the application list a GPA of 2.5 or 3.0?
C. Also, would the 4.0 postbacc GPA be formally listed by itself, or is it something that Aadsas take into account by themselves?

5) A. Is postbacc an umbrella term that includes both graduate AND undergraduate work?
B. In general, when postbacc is referenced, are people referring to upper level undergrad work to raise undergrad GPA?

6) It seems that the general consensus is that it is preferable to raise the UG GPA, rather than engaging in graduate work. This is because, no matter how stellar one's graduate work is, a sub 3.0 UG GPA would most likely be screened out. Agree or disagree?

7) Are SMPs (special master's programs) relevant for pre-dent students, or are they geared towards pre-med?

8) In regards to formal postbaccs vs informal postbacs, next to the advantages listed in the FAQ, most formal postbaccs will award some type of certification after completion. Is this true?

9) Assuming the current GPA (2.5 - 2.7), with a score of 23-24 on the DAT in the 99th percentile, what are the chances of admission anywhere?

Conclusion:
From what I've gathered, and this is subject to change depending on the answers I receive for the questions above, this is what should be done:

- Enroll in informal postbacc coursework.
- Keep up with the ECs.

What's next?

10) One year of postbacc to bump the GPA up to get into a grad school, one year of informal postbacc followed by application to a formal postbacc (or an SMP..?), or go on with two years of informal undergrad postbacc?

I realize this has been a long and rambling message, and I feel like a leech for picking your brains without giving anything back, but I really could use some help.

Thanks in advance.

-Phil

 

[faranak]

Hey all, I've browsed through hundreds of your posts on this forum and elsewhere and, amazingly, I still can't find a definitive answer. I'm not sure if this deserves its own thread as there are similar ones floating around, but I do feel that post-bacc programs could use clarification. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the synopsis: Resident of CA and screwed up as a bio undergrad before graduating 2 years ago. As it stands now, dental school admission is out of the question. With a terrible GPA, sci 2.5, overall 2.7, both a formal postbacc program and any sort of grad program are unlikely.

For the sake of precision, I'll list my questions numerically.

1) A. Specifically, when used by those in search of a GPA booster, what does an informal post-bacc entail?
B. Do most people re-take the courses that they performed poorly in before taking additional upper level science courses, or do they immediately dive into the most rigorous science classes that they can find?

2) Relatedly, I've found some schools that offer 2nd-bac programs. The advantage is that it keeps financial aid available while giving higher priority for class registration. The question: if both factor into GPA (do they? see question 4), what advantage is there to an open informal postbacc where one structures their own schedule, while losing financial aid and registration priority? Why wouldn't everybody pursue a second UG degree while also raising their GPA?

3) A. When one re-takes a course, is the former grade wiped away?
B. If not, there's no point in re-taking those courses/pre-reqs, correct?

4) On predents.com, I see postbacc GPA listed separately from UG GPA.
A. Does postbacc GPA have no effect on UG GPA, or is it averaged with the UG GPA?
B. For example, two years of a 4.0 postbacc GPA raises an overall undergrad GPA from a 2.5 to a 3.0. Would the application list a GPA of 2.5 or 3.0?
C. Also, would the 4.0 postbacc GPA be formally listed by itself, or is it something that Aadsas take into account by themselves?

5) A. Is postbacc an umbrella term that includes both graduate AND undergraduate work?
B. In general, when postbacc is referenced, are people referring to upper level undergrad work to raise undergrad GPA?

6) It seems that the general consensus is that it is preferable to raise the UG GPA, rather than engaging in graduate work. This is because, no matter how stellar one's graduate work is, a sub 3.0 UG GPA would most likely be screened out. Agree or disagree?

7) Are SMPs (special master's programs) relevant for pre-dent students, or are they geared towards pre-med?

8) In regards to formal postbaccs vs informal postbacs, next to the advantages listed in the FAQ, most formal postbaccs will award some type of certification after completion. Is this true?

9) Assuming the current GPA (2.5 - 2.7), with a score of 23-24 on the DAT in the 99th percentile, what are the chances of admission anywhere?

Conclusion:
From what I've gathered, and this is subject to change depending on the answers I receive for the questions above, this is what should be done:

- Enroll in informal postbacc coursework.
- Keep up with the ECs.

What's next?

10) One year of postbacc to bump the GPA up to get into a grad school, one year of informal postbacc followed by application to a formal postbacc (or an SMP..?), or go on with two years of informal undergrad postbacc?

I realize this has been a long and rambling message, and I feel like a leech for picking your brains without giving anything back, but I really could use some help.

Thanks in advance.

-Phil

I have kinda the same question... post somethin here if you find out anything.. specailly about that question you about with a low GPA score and HIgh DAT score and your chance of acceptance anywere? have you planned to take some courses as post bach-- if you did what did you take and how ?

 

[vhh007]

Hello, I was reading your post and I truly understand how one can be whelmed with all of the information you have been reading. By no means can I answer all of your questions but I will try my best because I am in a similar situation. The under 3.0 club posts have a lot of great info but like you said there is a lot of reading and looking through the posts to get the information you are looking for. First I’ll tell you a little about my situation just so you see where I’m coming from. I graduated college 4 years with a terrible GPA (defn below 3) with a degree in biology and to be honest I never thought I was going to recover from this academically. Even though I have made progress those mistakes don’t go away and they will continue to hurt me as I try to somehow get into dental school.


About 2 years ago I decided that I wanted to be a dentist but I knew academically there was no way schools would even consider me. So to try to fix the GPA problem I did an informal postbacc at my local university. This means is that I enrolled as a non degree-seeking student (they allowed me after I had sent in my transcript showing I had graduated college). FYI tuition was cheap for me because it’s a state school, you just pay for the number of credit hours you are taking.


I retook a lot of the prerequisites (classes I had C’s) and a few more classes so for me it was physics I&II, orgo I&II, micro, anatomy I&II, genetics, cell biology, animal physiology, biochemistry plus some more ending up with 46 credits. After it was all said and done I got my GPA above a 3.0 What is easy? By no means! But I knew I could not make any more mistakes and this was pretty much my only shot. Besides helping my GPA, I slowly got some confidence back in myself academically. If nothing else that’s the most important I have taken from this whole experience and I have erased some of those self-doubts that have always bothered me. So now i'll try to answer some of the questions


1) A. Specifically, when used by those in search of a GPA booster, what does an informal post-bacc entail?
B. Do most people re-take the courses that they performed poorly in before taking additional upper level science courses, or do they immediately dive into the most rigorous science classes that they can find?

A - just taking the classes you would like (pick and choose), no degree awarded

B - if you have C's I'd retake them BUT make sure to get A's, you need a good basis to build upon so even if one were just to take upper level classes you might not do well. Plus it will help when studying for the DAT


2) Relatedly, I've found some schools that offer 2nd-bac programs. The advantage is that it keeps financial aid available while giving higher priority for class registration. The question: if both factor into GPA (do they? see question 4), what advantage is there to an open informal postbacc where one structures their own schedule, while losing financial aid and registration priority? Why wouldn't everybody pursue a second UG degree while also raising their GPA?


If you already have a bio degree then there isn't any way to get another one, you already have it. Also, if you have a BS it's harder to get a second science degree. Plus, why would you want another degree?

If the classes are taken as an informal program the GPA will not be seperate, all grades will be averaged in together. Also if you are getting another degree that is considered UG. However, if you will recieve a masters degree there will be a seperate GPA.


3) A. When one re-takes a course, is the former grade wiped away?
B. If not, there's no point in re-taking those courses/pre-reqs, correct?


A - No it is not wiped away, it is averaged into your GPA

B - Yes, if you have lots of bad grades (and I will admit I was one of them) it will be benificial to retake them. Like I said earlier, it will make things easier to understand later on.


4) On predents.com, I see postbacc GPA listed separately from UG GPA.
A. Does postbacc GPA have no effect on UG GPA, or is it averaged with the UG GPA?
B. For example, two years of a 4.0 postbacc GPA raises an overall undergrad GPA from a 2.5 to a 3.0. Would the application list a GPA of 2.5 or 3.0?
C. Also, would the 4.0 postbacc GPA be formally listed by itself, or is it something that Aadsas take into account by themselves?

A - People do strange things on predents, it's hard to tell which is which. Basically don't trust it

B - if the classes were taken at seperate schools they will see both the 2.5 and the 4.0 but the cum GPA will take everything into account

C - it will not be seperate (remembering if the classes you take don't result in a degree)


5) A. Is postbacc an umbrella term that includes both graduate AND undergraduate work?
B. In general, when postbacc is referenced, are people referring to upper level undergrad work to raise undergrad GPA?

A - again it depends on what the person did.

B - more then likely it's a combo of lower and upper level undergrad classes and maybe some grad classes

6) It seems that the general consensus is that it is preferable to raise the UG GPA, rather than engaging in graduate work. This is because, no matter how stellar one's graduate work is, a sub 3.0 UG GPA would most likely be screened out. Agree or disagree?

Raise your GPA to over a 3 but again some people might think differently

7) Are SMPs (special master's programs) relevant for pre-dent students, or are they geared towards pre-med?

Yes it's for both, they are mainly for people that have a science degree already though

8) In regards to formal postbaccs vs informal postbacs, next to the advantages listed in the FAQ, most formal postbaccs will award some type of certification after completion. Is this true?

Yes - someone correct me if i'm wrong

9) Assuming the current GPA (2.5 - 2.7), with a score of 23-24 on the DAT in the 99th percentile, what are the chances of admission anywhere?

I reallllllly don't think so, then again there are always the exception


10) One year of postbacc to bump the GPA up to get into a grad school, one year of informal postbacc followed by application to a formal postbacc (or an SMP..?), or go on with two years of informal undergrad postbacc?

People are going to suggest very different things, I went the informal undergad postbacc but then again i don't know what the end result is going to be yet. I have my fingers crossed

Don't forget after all of the classes you will still have to do well on the DAT, get plenty of dental experience, and continue doing EC.

I hope this is somewhat helpful, I know it was a struggle for me to decide what steps i needed to take. Again, SDN has lots of great info but take everything with a grain of salt, even the stuff I said. There will always be exceptions and differing opinions. Just let me know if I can be of any more help. Best of Luck

 

[PapaDeath]

I think your post brings some very good questions to the table. I would like to know more from experienced/former post-bacc students as well. Thanks to vhh007 so far, I'd agree with a lot of that from what I've seen/heard.

My gut feeling has always told me to go with the informal postbacc if it came down to it, because going into a graduate program simply to impress an adcom would be fairly obvious, I think. Formal postbaccs with a certification would be nice too, but my UG university does not offer one(and I won't switch universities just for a certification, I think that would also look odd on the application). I would start with your old prereqs that were deficient, master them, and then move on to as many higher level courses as you can for 1 or 2 years.

In addition, the reason I think a formal/informal post-bacc is a good choice is because undergraduate GPA is apparently a huge screening factor in deciding how well-equipped you are for a professional school. I would want to present my application with a single GPA that looks good and a strong DAT score(21 and up?).

Unfortunately, while researching post-bacc programs, I came across the following. I'm not sure of the validity of this following statement with relation to dental school(which is why I'd like some experienced post-baccers to help us out):

“For students graduating with a major in biology, bioengineering, etc…students probably should enter into a standard M.S. program in science.”
--Association of American Medical Colleges
Source: http://academic.scranton.edu/organization/hpo/postbacc.ppt

I'm wondering if the board of dental colleges thinks the same way...

Either way, I personally am leaning towards an informal postbacc and focusing on the DATs.

So...my main question: did anyone out there have a crappy UG gpa, do an informal post-bacc for a year or two, and get into dental school?

 

[deleted155778]

1) A. Specifically, when used by those in search of a GPA booster, what does an informal post-bacc entail?
B. Do most people re-take the courses that they performed poorly in before taking additional upper level science courses, or do they immediately dive into the most rigorous science classes that they can find?

A - just taking the classes you would like (pick and choose), no degree awarded

B - if you have C's I'd retake them BUT make sure to get A's, you need a good basis to build upon so even if one were just to take upper level classes you might not do well. Plus it will help when studying for the DAT

I'm in the exact same boat 🙁 so I am definitely looking for some answers as well.

I've heard that some schools look down upon retaking undergrad courses because it shows that it took the applicant more than one time to fully comprehend the material.

Any opinions on this?

 

[vhh007]

Just to give you some more information I actually applied last year (I had only completed about 22 credits worth of classes by then) with decent DAT scores (all 20 and above) but i was only granted one interview from my state school and ultimately I was not accepted. Plus it didn't help AADSAS lost some of my stuff and I submitted late so that defn didn't help either but i won't get into that.


Afterwards I talked to the director of admissions to see where I could improve my application and he told me I'm doing the exact right thing for my given situation and that I should be considered a competitive applicant this time around. My more recent GPA would be more heavily weighted compared to my earlier GPA. But to give you an idea my last 46 credits i ended up with a 4.0 (basically taking all the prerequites and then some). Also, I was told that I need as much clinical experience as possible so I have been observing in as many clinics as possible seeing as much as i can. Remember grades will not get people like us into school, it will have to be some other quaility we can offer that no other person can. The director told me they had several people who got admitted to the school in smiliar situations so it IS possible, it just takes some work.


On retaking classes, for me i HAD to because there was no way I was going to be able to get my GPA over a 3 plus how could i get into a master program with a sub 3 GPA? My first semester back was so stressful because I hadn't had a real science class in over 3 years and I knew I had to do well. After you get a few classes under your belt it gets easier and your confidence builds. To be honest after I took those classes I thought to myself, wtf was i doing in college! haha At this point I don't know how more classes could help me plus I have taken almost all of the science classes offered by my local university (it's really small). Man i wish it was like optometry school in which you can replace grades you when apply! If only 😳 As to whether this works? I'll let ya know

 

[threemileisle]

Thanks for the reply, VHH!

I have a couple of follow-up questions for you. If you could answer, that'd be great!

If you already have a bio degree then there isn't any way to get another one, you already have it. Also, if you have a BS it's harder to get a second science degree. Plus, why would you want another degree?

If the classes are taken as an informal program the GPA will not be seperate, all grades will be averaged in together. Also if you are getting another degree that is considered UG. However, if you will recieve a masters degree there will be a seperate GPA.

I guess what I meant to ask was this: Informal post-bac students are classified as non-degree students, hence their ineligibility for financial aid and early class registration, correct? What is to prevent one from re-enrolling and declaring a second bac in a different major (chem? microbio? music?) as a technicality, but then not taking any courses for that degree, instead focusing only on the upper div sci courses to boost GPA?

Similarly, are post-bac second degree programs considered FORMAL post-bac? Or are formal post-bac programs a different beast altogether, mostly intended for non-sci people who don't already have the pre-reqs?

Thanks again!

 

[vhh007]

Even though I was classified as a non-degree seeking student I was able to register for classes with "seniors" so I was able to have first pick which helps out a lot with the smaller classes (again this might just be at this school). Also, because of the classification I only paid for the credit hours i took, no extra fees (institutional, ect). I don't know how finicial aid might work though, you will have to do some more research on that. I met some older students who were going back to school to get a 2nd degree but their 1st degree was in something totally different like english. I became friends with some prepharm people that were just there to take the required classes.

I actually thought about getting a BS in Chemistry but I was told because I already had a BS I wasn't able to...i still don't quite get that one but i'll go along with it. I can see your comment about signing up for a 2nd degree but then just taking the classes you want (like the bios, chems) but I don't see how that would be any different from just enrolling as a non-degree seeking student. Get what I mean? Plus you might be charged more because you are degree seeking at that point.

To be honest I don't know how to answer that question requarding whether a 2nd degree is considered a formal postbacc or not. I'm guessing not? Because it's just another UG degree? Maybe someone else can help out on this one. I think the "formal ones" are for people without the science background. Check on the pre med/do forums too because there have people in similiar situations that have done those programs and then got accepted into school. Hope this helps.

 

[shawn_wac]

Great advice so far… I don't know if my story will help anyone, but I had a similar problem so I will post it here.

I have a liberal arts degree, was below 3.0, and wanted to go to d-school. After talking to the d-schools, d-school professors, dentists and d-students, here is what I decided to do: I first made an Excel file that calculated my overall and science GPA with all my current grades. Then I used that to see how many classes I would need to take to bring up my GPA to being competitive based on the ADEA stats for schools I want to apply to.

I looked at "formal post-bac" programs, but most wouldn't take me because of my GPA. Doing a second degree is fine, but I would have taken so many classes I didn't want to take, it seemed like a waste. I want to be a dentist, not a Chem major. So I just applied as non-degree seeking and have taken random courses based on what was suggested on all the dental school sites, the ADEA info and through my conversations with the d-schools.

I took business courses to improve my business skills (Acct, Biz Law, Into to Biz, etc&#8230😉, art courses to improve my hand eye (Drawing, Sculpture, etc&#8230😉 and I have a ton of advance science classes (Microbiol, Ant I/II, Genetics, etc..) in addition to my pre-req sciences. Because a lot of the science coursework I took before were non-science major classes, I retook a lot of the old science classes and even took some old under grad courses that I liked and knew were easy A's. It took a couple of yrs to bring up the GPA, and it has been a tough road, but the fruits of my labor are a 3.6 overall and 3.5 science GPA. I could have applied with a lower GPA, but figured the extra time with volunteering and science classes make me more competitive. I am applying this round with my old DAT score of 18, but will retake the DAT in Aug.

On the question of aid; I couldn't get aid because I already have one degree. (That is what I was told) I could have taken loans, but decided to just work in the restaurant biz and pay for everything myself. No sense in adding tons of $$$ to my school loans when I am going to take $100k to get through d-school.

I hope that helps you. If you know dentistry is your passion, and you can't imagine doing anything else, then work for it and you will get there. Best of luck to everyone!

 

[klilacdds]

This thread is exactly why I joined!!!
I am in the same situation with a sub 3.0 GPA and what seems like an endless road of questions and post bacc ahead. I just graduated in May with a 2.89 GPA and a B.S. in bio, but my GPA actually turned out to be lower due to grades from another school (I transfered, made terrible grades and mistakes at my old school, just keeps following me 😡). I stayed on the honor roll until I graduated, so I am keeping that trend by enrolling as a non degree student this fall at the local state-U. The great thing is that they have a nursing program and offer a lot of advanced upper level courses, such as patho-physiology, pharmacology, histology, biotechnology, biochem, etc. that my school did not. To me, this seemed better because I don't have to commit to a set path of study and I already have a bio degree and I've taken everything but these classes. It also keeps my time free for getting more experience.

 

[faranak]

This thread is exactly why I joined!!!
I am in the same situation with a sub 3.0 GPA and what seems like an endless road of questions and post bacc ahead. I just graduated in May with a 2.89 GPA and a B.S. in bio, but my GPA actually turned out to be lower due to grades from another school (I transfered, made terrible grades and mistakes at my old school, just keeps following me 😡). I stayed on the honor roll until I graduated, so I am keeping that trend by enrolling as a non degree student this fall at the local state-U. The great thing is that they have a nursing program and offer a lot of advanced upper level courses, such as patho-physiology, pharmacology, histology, biotechnology, biochem, etc. that my school did not. To me, this seemed better because I don't have to commit to a set path of study and I already have a bio degree and I've taken everything but these classes. It also keeps my time free for getting more experience.

heyyyyy I am doing the same thing. BUt one question.. when you did think about ur GPA calcualtion after taking these classes what conclusion did you get? I mean as a non-degree student does your grades are given credits for ( like the normal undergrad courses?? I have a GPA of 2.78 and want to take some courses .. maybe retake some courses but are u personally planning to retake your low grade courses or just take some science /bio upper level courses?? which way is better?? OH.. AND HOW HIGH YOUR GPA OR I WILL END UP after about a year?? BIG CHANGE? SMALL CHANGE?? does it worth it?? or just take a DAT hard and get decent scores??? 😕😕

 

[PapaDeath]

heyyyyy I am doing the same thing. BUt one question.. when you did think about ur GPA calcualtion after taking these classes what conclusion did you get? I mean as a non-degree student does your grades are given credits for ( like the normal undergrad courses?? I have a GPA of 2.78 and want to take some courses .. maybe retake some courses but are u personally planning to retake your low grade courses or just take some science /bio upper level courses?? which way is better?? OH.. AND HOW HIGH YOUR GPA OR I WILL END UP after about a year?? BIG CHANGE? SMALL CHANGE?? does it worth it?? or just take a DAT hard and get decent scores??? 😕😕

I would have to say that if you performed poorly on a good number of the pre-requisites(C or lower in 4 or more classes), I would go ahead and redo them first before moving on to higher level science classes. If you had one or two 'C or lower' grades in your pre-requisites and did okay from there...there probably isn't a need to retake them.

How your gpa will end up after a year depends on how you do. A year of all A's in your classes will do a ton more for someone with a sub 3.0 UG gpa than it would for someone with a 3.4 who is looking to get to a 3.5 GPA.

Do what your gut tells you to do...if you feel that to better yourself, you need to retake your prereqs, I would go ahead and do them. Then, move on to more difficult classes.