Postdoc confusion & burnout

[Hope4Grad]

As usual, I am going to give it all up on this thread. I am so sick of school. We go through so much training in psych programs, and it seems like the hoops are endless. Unfortunately, my energy is not. I am halfway through Internship, applying to Fellowships, and all of this feels like slogging through mud. Do I actually want to go on postdoc? No. It seems like a necessary means to an end, another formal experience where people can watch you and evaluate you while you grovel like a student for no money hoping to meet with their approval. Look, we are going to bust our butts anyway - whether we start a private practice or go into a job or do a postdoc. The problem is, I just don't have the energy or desire to have someone continuously evaluate me. I do think I have a lot more learning to do - I'm not conceited or unrealistic about that. But the constant evaluation is annoying. On the other hand, doing an informal postdoc and working on starting a practice is not a better option because it's so much work and you haven't built any kind of reputation and everyone says the days of hanging a shingle and hoping your practice gets filled (much less getting filled with people who will pay full fee) are over. Therefore, I feel forced into taking the postdoc route which I really don't want to do. And what does a formal postdoc get me, aside from the pain of being evaluated and watched over - and maybe some didactic training that I've done for what feels like a million years already? I'm right where I was after Internship, busting my guts for patients or a job. So, great, I put that off another year - another year of lost income and time and health. Feels like a death march either way. Does anyone else feel this stuck about postdoc and how to get started in their career?

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[MiniLop]

Oh god, I'm a third year and I already feel like this.

 

[WisNeuro]

I loved my postdoc. Sure, the pay could have been better (50k), but I still have great contacts and friends from that experience that I speak to on a weekly basis. Depends on what you want to get out of the experience. I was focused on rigorous training and things that would make me much more marketable in the field when I applied. The expectation you carry into it will flavor much of what you get out of it.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Sounds like you seriously need to find a postdoc where you'll be treated as a valued junior colleague.

 

[Pragma]

Not really sure being evaluated should be considered such a dramatic pain. It is a good thing. Plus they usually give you tons of independence on postdoc (which is largely the point).

As a neuro person, I learned the most on postdoc. I didn't know what I didn't know before then. It is a very important year (or in my case, 2 years).

I will say it is pretty normal to have some frustrated feelings at this stage. I did and others have told me that too. But the pros definitely outweigh the cons, in most specialties.

 

[erg923]

I can empathize with the OP, although for slightly different reasons. I was tired of the status of "trainee" and really wanted to finally buy a house and have children with my wife. And both of those seemed way too daunting on formal postdoc salary and still having to take the EPPP.

Fortunately, I had the CV by the time I left internship to gain a faculty position at a SLAC in my hometown (one of the advantages of a Ph.D. quite frankly) which allowed me to build connections and obtain a VA position the very next year- where I could actually make what I consider to be a doctoral level salary.

I would suggest that this process be viewed less as jumping from one unrelated experience/milestone to another and more so one that has some type of strategic plan/path and uses "connections" and networking in the areas or area where you want to be.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Your relationship w staff and your supervisors should be different; in a good way.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

I stayed on as postdoc at my internship site. The difference was like night and day when I started postdoc, and I was treated like a junior staff member. Yes, there's supervision, but even that's more peer like. Internship was a big source of burn out for me, so hang in there, it gets easier as you advance.

 

[NeuroTrope]

It's a grind but once you are out and functioning as an independent professional, you can reflect on the good (and bad) of your training with more perspective. Big picture, you will spend the majority of your life as a non-trainee so try to embrace these last few years you have where someone is actively evaluating and providing feedback for your work. Most supervisors have good intentions and even if a few are a bit rough in delivering feedback, nearly all having something valuable to offer.

It does get better once you are out on your own, but it is also challenging in its own way...nobody is checking up on you anymore!

 

[mlwg1]

Just here to say that I'm on postdoc and I can empathize with the burnout related to being supervised. I have four clinical supervisors that I work with directly and two training directors. I am treated as a junior colleague and I am grateful for the things I've learned, but between all these folks there's a lot of meetings, emailing, and checking in.

For me part of my burnout also stems another issue- I'm in a clinical VA postdoc and I really miss doing research. I don't see myself being a clinician after the postdoctoral year. At the same time, I can acknowledge that my postdoc gave me the perspective I needed to learn what a staff position at my hospital entails and make an informed decision about my career moving forward.

 

[deleted343839]

On internship the heavy workload and constant supervision can be draining. It's normal to feel tired and ready to move on. But I also perceive a note of resentment in your post. Have you talked with any of your supervisors about what's going on? With another half-year of internship ahead of you, it might be helpful to [tactfully] talk this through with someone you can trust. As others have said, though, things do change for the better on postdoc. The workload becomes more manageable, and you get to focus more on your own training goals.

On the other hand, doing an informal postdoc and working on starting a practice is not a better option because it's so much work and you haven't built any kind of reputation and everyone says the days of hanging a shingle and hoping your practice gets filled (much less getting filled with people who will pay full fee) are over. Therefore, I feel forced into taking the postdoc route which I really don't want to do.

What are your training goals between now and when you're out on your own? While I think most people can benefit from a formal postdoc, certainly no one's forcing you to do that. I've known people who did informal postdocs and went on to be happy as private practitioners. It seems you're feeling sort of passive in all of this. I can sympathize because even as a postdoc I had some difficulty differentiating my own goals from those of my mentors. But it is really to your benefit to shift your mindset and think hard about what you want to be doing when you launch your career and what you need to learn to feel ready (within reason) to manage it all. Intensive training of this sort will never be as affordable, and feasible, as it is for you right now.

 

[aly cat]

I was on internship last year and can relate to your feelings exactly. There were a number of factors that contributed to my feeling like I learned very little my intern year and the idea of doing that for crap pay for another year literally made me cry on several occasions. I understand that the odds of this are low and that I'm incredibly fortunate, but I managed to snag a tenure-track faculty job in the same geographical region as my husband's job (also a PhD in psychology though his is not clinical). I had long deliberations about whether I should take the job or one of the fellowships I'd interviewed for and the consensus was that I'd be silly to turn down a TT job for a fellowship. I'm now half way through my first year and think I made by far the best decision for me. Anecdotally, my friends from internship and grad school who took fellowships report often that they are miserable and question their decisions on a daily basis. Some of them are applying for jobs in an attempt to get out. A couple say its tough and annoying but they are glad they did it.. for what it is worth, those happiest seem to have taken fellowships that are not 100% clinical. I guess that is one potential comfort-- if you take one and you hate it, you could always leave. I know that may be frowned upon, but the stakes are not the same as internship and it is worth some thought.

Obtaining licensure was a serious concern that I had. In my current state, post-doc hours are not required and I'm in the process of getting licensed now. My back up plan if I move to another state AND cannot secure employment in academia is to hopefully use my connections to return to the VA-- my license in my current state will be sufficient. Another consideration that helped me feel solid in my decision was that there were a handful of people at my internship site who were getting supervision even though they were fully licensed... they took jobs straight out of internship (at that VA) and negotiated this so that should they move states in the future and need post-doc hours for supervision, they would technically have completed them without doing a formal post-doc. So it seems an arrangement such as that or (in some states) paying for supervision is possible if needed.

Best of luck to you!

 

[EPPP123]

I feel your pain. I'd hit my limit after internship...I had an infant, my husband and I were both in grad school and both working full time, and it was just too much to try to search for postdocs and complete my dissertation (I didn't think I'd ever get it done). I chose to continue to live a life with limited financial means and I stayed home with my child while working on my dissertation as my husband worked full time and went to school evenings and weekends. My husband has now long-since completed his MBA. I'm now 10 years post-graduation from the 2 psych PhD. programs that I completed and starting the search for an informal postdoc for next fall. I had 2 more kids and some significant health issues along the way, so for me it made sense to try to arrange my goals sequentially rather than simultaneously.

As I now prepare to re-enter the working world, I am so EXCITED to be getting back to work in psychology. I welcome supervision as I refresh my skills, and I feel ready to do this for me rather than totally spent and exhausted (which I was after internship). I also think that I will be a much better practitioner as a result of the deep, experiential learning that I have had in the past 10 years...sometimes it's right to push yourself through the challenges, and sometimes it's right to take a break to regroup and do the hoop-jumping when you're better able to.

I wish you luck as you continue to wade through the muck and mire. The end is out there.

 

[cara susanna]

I felt the same way during internship but now I'm really glad I did a post doc. I got specialized training in an area that I ended up absolutely loving and it seemed to give me a huge advantage in the job market. That being said, by the time I applied for jobs I was sick to death of being a trainee. However, that to me was a good thing because I feel more than ready to be independent.

 

[RejectClinical]

As usual, I am going to give it all up on this thread. I am so sick of school. We go through so much training in psych programs, and it seems like the hoops are endless. Unfortunately, my energy is not. I am halfway through Internship, applying to Fellowships, and all of this feels like slogging through mud. Do I actually want to go on postdoc? No. It seems like a necessary means to an end, another formal experience where people can watch you and evaluate you while you grovel like a student for no money hoping to meet with their approval. Look, we are going to bust our butts anyway - whether we start a private practice or go into a job or do a postdoc. The problem is, I just don't have the energy or desire to have someone continuously evaluate me. I do think I have a lot more learning to do - I'm not conceited or unrealistic about that. But the constant evaluation is annoying. On the other hand, doing an informal postdoc and working on starting a practice is not a better option because it's so much work and you haven't built any kind of reputation and everyone says the days of hanging a shingle and hoping your practice gets filled (much less getting filled with people who will pay full fee) are over. Therefore, I feel forced into taking the postdoc route which I really don't want to do. And what does a formal postdoc get me, aside from the pain of being evaluated and watched over - and maybe some didactic training that I've done for what feels like a million years already? I'm right where I was after Internship, busting my guts for patients or a job. So, great, I put that off another year - another year of lost income and time and health. Feels like a death march either way. Does anyone else feel this stuck about postdoc and how to get started in their career?

I SO hear you......I do think the degree to which you feel this way depends a lot on the people you work for. I've been with supervisors that are so incredible that the evaluative component was barely noticeable. It was actually enjoyable. At the same time, I've been supervised by people to the point that I felt suffocated and like I was on an endless interview every day of the week. Unless $ is the primary issue, I think finding a post doc where they treat you like a colleague, as others have said, sounds like the thing you need to be looking for. You might also ask about how supervision is done, including how many hours you're directly and indirectly supervised. I purposefully picked a post doc where I could be left alone 50% of the time to do research. I also picked a post doc where the previous post doc emphasized how much she was treated like a colleague. I enjoy improving and generally enjoy supervision, but can't stand the feeling of being treated like an undergrad (and there are definitely supervisors who do this).

If $ is the problem, then there is always the option of trying to find a job in a state that doesn't require a post doc. I have a friend going through the process now. You'll have to be flexible and you'll be somewhat limited geographically (although there is always the VA where they don't care which state you got your license from). This route will be somewhat tough because you'll be competing with people who completed a post doc (as well as people with experience after post doc). With that said, it isn't impossible (hard yes....but not impossible).

 

[GoPokes]

I'm so, so, so, so, SO with you on this.

I'm halfway through internship, and I'm enjoying it. But looking for post-docs/jobs on top of my daily duties/meetings/supervisions/training/etc is beyond daunting. They offer a post-doc here, and I'd be happy to stay here, but the pay is incredibly low (~30k) and I can't help but cringe at the thought of another year of sub-par pay (sub-par even compared to other post-docs) along with the constant evaluation. I can't leave the mid-sized city that I'm in due to family, and this city evidently doesn't have a lot in the way of jobs. I've resorted to cold-emailing group practices/mental health facilities in hopes they'd be willing to give me a job + supervision for my hours next year.

So yes, I feel totally burned out and stuck.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My feelings were much the same as yours, but once I finally secured the postdoc position, that was when I finally began seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.