postdoc question

[parto123]

Can someone explain what exact purpose a postdoc fellowship serves? Is it for resume padding, is it only necessary for research and academia or is it necessary to obtain state licensure to practice a specific branch of psychology?

For example, I have heard that neuropsych is a very competitive post doc for clinical psychs. Is this because clinical psychologists aren’t authorized to practice neuropsych without the postdoc?

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[Cosmo75]

From a clinical psych perspective, the postdoc is required by all (are there any more that don't require it? NJ?) states for licensing. The number of hours required varies by state, but most are at least a year long. For other fields, I'm not sure why you'd need it. Probably to make you more competitive for academic or other jobs since you'd have more experience. But I'll leave that to those who are actually in that area of psych.

 

[cmuhooligan]

From a clinical psych perspective, the postdoc is required by all (are there any more that don't require it? NJ?) states for licensing. The number of hours required varies by state, but most are at least a year long. For other fields, I'm not sure why you'd need it. Probably to make you more competitive for academic or other jobs since you'd have more experience. But I'll leave that to those who are actually in that area of psych.

That's not entirely true. You do need to have supervised clinical hours post-grad, but it need not be a formal "post-doc" position.

 

[erg923]

"For example, I have heard that neuropsych is a very competitive post doc for clinical psychs. Is this because clinical psychologists aren't authorized to practice neuropsych without the postdoc?"

Well thats really opening up a huge can of worms there. "Can't" is the key word here,kinda depends on what you mean by "cant." According to the 2002 Ethics code, no one should practice outside their area of competence. I don't know how someone who is not formally trained in neuropsychology thinks that they have that competence, but apparently they do, because their are alot of folks doing neuropsych testing (I wouldn't call it assessment in the formal sense), calling themselves "neuropsychologists," and performing piss poor assessments that obviously lack integration, knowledge of neuroanatomy, and behavioral neurology. This results in naive and incorrect diagnosis, or missed diagnosis that harms patients. This is unethical practice, but since the ethics codes of psychologists are not formal laws in many states, these people are technically not doing anything illegal in most cases. Fortunately, I suppose, this is really only a rampant problem in the private practice world. The VA's, hospitals, rehab institutions, etc are generally not gonna be hiring those with out formal post docs in neuropsychology for neuropsychology positions.

 

[parto123]

"For example, I have heard that neuropsych is a very competitive post doc for clinical psychs. Is this because clinical psychologists aren’t authorized to practice neuropsych without the postdoc?"

Well thats really opening up a huge can of worms there. "Can't" is the key word here,kinda depends on what you mean by "cant." According to the 2002 Ethics code, no one should practice outside their area of competence. I don't know how someone who is not formally trained in neuropsychology thinks that they have that competence, but apparently they do, because their are alot of folks doing neuropsych testing (I wouldn't call it assessment in the formal sense), calling themselves "neuropsychologists," and performing piss poor assessments that obviously lack integration, knowledge of neuroanatomy, and behavioral neurology. This results in naive and incorrect diagnosis, or missed diagnosis that harms patients. This is unethical practice, but since the ethics codes of psychologists are not formal laws in many states, these people are technically not doing anything illegal in most cases.

Im not trying to start any battle here, im seriously asking because I don’t know who exactly needs to get a post doc, why they need it, what kinds are available etc.

 

[erg923]

lol..I didn't think you were. I was just saying the neuropsych training and scope of practice issue is a hotly debated topic. The overall goal of clinical post doc is to receive either or both of the following: 1.) appropriate supervision necessary to get independently licensed, or 2.) appropriate supervision and instruction in order to obtain competence and get boarded in a specialty areas such as neuropsychology or forensic. A research fellowship post-doc has the goal of further mentoring of research skills/abilities, usually with the goal of producing expertise in a very specific area of research. I remember reading a reading a recent report in JCP that almost 80 of clinical folks now do post docs, either in form of a formal position, or just being supervised.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A post-doc is a way to accrue hours towards licensure, so people then need to figure out if they want a 'formal' one through a hospital, university, etc). The nueropsych post-doc are competitive because of the requirements, but I think that is a good thing.

Post-doc hours have been debated as of late because some believe it is based on an outdated model and it is unfair to students to work another year for junk wages. It is even more hotly debated in regard to neuropsych. My opinion is that they should require boarding for specialties, but the old guard has a lot of push back around that idea.

Btw.....I believe Washington state doesn't require a post-doc. I wouldn't suggest skipping post-doc, but that is just me.

 

[elite1]

Three places do not require post-docs for garden variety clinical psychologists: Alabama, Utah, and Washington state. Thus, you can take the EPPP right after internship.

 

[parto123]

A post-doc is a way to accrue hours towards licensure, so people then need to figure out if they want a 'formal' one through a hospital, university, etc). The nueropsych post-doc are competitive because of the requirements, but I think that is a good thing.

Post-doc hours have been debated as of late because some believe it is based on an outdated model and it is unfair to students to work another year for junk wages. It is even more hotly debated in regard to neuropsych. My opinion is that they should require boarding for specialties, but the old guard has a lot of push back around that idea.

Btw.....I believe Washington state doesn't require a post-doc. I wouldn't suggest skipping post-doc, but that is just me.

Thanks. So would any "psychology job" post internship qualify as a "post doc" as long as it gives you a certain amount of hours/ supervision, or does it need to be certified by some institution (similar to APA and appic accreditation for internships).

Also, what does it take to "board" into a specialty? For example, in neuro, do you need to do a postdoc in an official neuro setting, or can you just do it by having enough neuro hours through your externship, internship and postdoc.

Last, as it currently stands, are you essentially locked out of a specialty of you don't board?

 

[erg923]

Thanks. So would any "psychology job" post internship qualify as a "post doc" as long as it gives you a certain amount of hours/ supervision, or does it need to be certified by some institution (similar to APA and appic accreditation for internships).

Also, what does it take to "board" into a specialty? For example, in neuro, do you need to do a postdoc in an official neuro setting, or can you just do it by having enough neuro hours through your externship, internship and postdoc.

Last, as it currently stands, are you essentially locked out of a specialty of you don't board?

I think your first question varies by state. In fact, thats the problems with all this stuff is that it often varies by state as you can see. I don't think they have to be accredited per say. But you do have to be supervised by a licensed person and document those hours.

To get boarded in neuropsych is also a long process, and many people feel a costly pain in the butt as well. You have to have already completed a post-doc that met Houston Conference guidelines (thats a whole other list of stuff), have a certain number of hours post post-doc, and then fill out applications and pay money to take an official test. It weird because some post-docs are accredited by APA, some are not, but even alot that meet Houston conference guidelines are still not accredited by APA or APPCN. Its all kind of messed up. As I said before, if you are in private practice, you can certainly "do neuropsych" without that post doc, but this is unethical (not necessarily illegal) practice and you really aren't doing true neuoropsychology. You would not qualify as a neuropsycholgist in the true sense, and you wouldn't be able to get hired as one in a hospital setting without formal training. That being said, there are many many neuropsycholgists with formal training from post docs who do not get officially "boarded" in neuropsych. Thats the big controversy with boards in neuropsych (and other specialty of psychology). They are not required per say, but highly encouraged

 

[BorntoRun]

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1008

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Piled Higher & Deeper is definitely a good source of info.

 

[Cosmo75]

That's not entirely true. You do need to have supervised clinical hours post-grad, but it need not be a formal "post-doc" position.

Yes, I wasn't clear. Post-doctoral clinical hours including supervision are required for license (except in the states listed). I just lumped that under the term postdoc. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ollie123]

Since this didn't get mentioned I will also say that many people do post-docs to respecialize as well. In other words, if say your primary specialty was substance use. You might do a post-doc in health psych, and take your career in the direction of using quitting substances as a time to inspire changing other health-related behaviors. (kind of a half-arsed example, but hopefully I made the point clear). I know a couple folks going into practice who did this since they focused their grad work on one population, and wanted to bring two areas together for their own practice so they did a post-doc in the second area for 1) Ethics and 2) More training that will hopefully help them be better down the road.

The wages are actually not THAT bad for post-docs either. I think 38k is the minimum if they pay by the NIH scale? I might be off, but its around there. It goes up at a reasonable rate too if you do a multi-year one. Obviously not great pay, but it sounds like a fortune compared to a typical grad stipend

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I talked to some friends who have done their post-docs in recent years and they were $30-$35k. There were some soft benefits too (teaching for extra $, etc) so it made it a bit better. Obviously YMMV and you will still need to work to find the better post-docs. Networking.....

 

[parto123]

Since this didn't get mentioned I will also say that many people do post-docs to respecialize as well. In other words, if say your primary specialty was substance use. You might do a post-doc in health psych, and take your career in the direction of using quitting substances as a time to inspire changing other health-related behaviors. (kind of a half-arsed example, but hopefully I made the point clear). I know a couple folks going into practice who did this since they focused their grad work on one population, and wanted to bring two areas together for their own practice so they did a post-doc in the second area for 1) Ethics and 2) More training that will hopefully help them be better down the road.

The wages are actually not THAT bad for post-docs either. I think 38k is the minimum if they pay by the NIH scale? I might be off, but its around there. It goes up at a reasonable rate too if you do a multi-year one. Obviously not great pay, but it sounds like a fortune compared to a typical grad stipend

So what does it mean when I read that people “chose” to do a post doc? If almost all states require it to be licensed, then everyone tries to get a post doc, correct?

 

[bookworm06]

yikes! all of this makes me terrified. I hope I will be able to live and not drown in my student loans.... (this fear is despite tuition remission and a stipend)...

 

[Ollie123]

So what does it mean when I read that people “chose” to do a post doc? If almost all states require it to be licensed, then everyone tries to get a post doc, correct?

Not necessarily since as was noted above, some do "unofficial" post-docs, and some states don't require post-docs.

I think most of the "choosing" might be academics - they don't always do them since the only real need for licensure is to supervise grad students - if you don't want to teach at the graduate level there is really no need to be licensed. Unless you plan on doing work on the side, which I think is the reason most folks do carry through with it. That being said the job market is competitive enough, it isn't much of a "choice" for anyone who wasn't a complete rockstar as a grad student.

That being said, at least for the combined research/clinical ones, there are TONS of opportunities for reasonably well qualified candidates, so they aren't hard to get. I can't really speak of clinical-only post-docs since I've only really paid attention to ones that provide opportunities for both.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

That being said, at least for the combined research/clinical ones, there are TONS of opportunities for reasonably well qualified candidates, so they aren't hard to get. I can't really speak of clinical-only post-docs since I've only really paid attention to ones that provide opportunities for both.

Agreed. "Choosing" involves going for formal post-docs (typically tied to a fellowship at Uni's and/or hospitals, for example), which are more competitive than getting someone to just supervise you and sign off on the hours. Depending on what you want to do as a career, some of the more competitive post-docs make sense for people. I know when I go through it I'll be going for a formal one, as I want to work in a setting (hospital) that values a more formal approach. Obviously people don't HAVE to have it, but if a job is competitive.....they will look for things to separate out the candidates.

 

[BamaPsych]

From a clinical psych perspective, the postdoc is required by all (are there any more that don't require it? NJ?) states for licensing.

I'm pretty sure Alabama still doesn't require postdoc experience for licensure

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I'm pretty sure Alabama still doesn't require postdoc experience for licensure

In Georgia, you can take the EPPP right after your PhD and when you accumulate enough post-doc hours, you are licensed.