Postdocs

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splendid

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Does every PhD student have to do a postdoc after graduation? Why would someone choose not to do one?

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splendid said:
Does every PhD student have to do a postdoc after graduation? Why would someone choose not to do one?

Postdocs are the norm, rather than the exception. Here's a brief rundown.

1) If you have no intention of ever providing clinical or supervisory services, and your CV is strong enough, you could apply directly from internship to an academic job. In this situaton, you would skip postdoc.

2) If you have no intention of ever doing research, and plan on a clinical career, you will need to complete a certain number of "postdoctoral" clinical hours prior to licensure. You can a) complete these hours during a formal, clinically-focused postdoc, or b) apply for a clinical job, work as an unlicensed clinician, and receive on-the-job supervision. The one drawback of the latter situation is that you will probably get paid less than a postdoc.

3) If you want a research career, but also want to be able to sit for licensure, a research postdoc is ideal because it allows you to gain the hours you need for licensure, and to beef up your CV with publications and grants.

Remember - most people applying for academic jobs have done a postdoc, so you will need to be especially stellar right out of internship to be able to compete for these jobs.
 
I will add one:
If you want to be a neuropsychologist, you have to do a formal 2-year psotdoc.
 
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how difficult is it to attain a post-doc? Are there far more applicants than positions?
 
I think it depends. If you get external funding, like through the NRSA grant, then probably lots of people would be happy to have you. If you want to go on your own, then you'd probably be looking for people who generally have post-docs and can fund them. I think it depends on your connections and networking, as well as your interests.

Also, many internships have a post-doc component to them, obligating you to a two year committment (1 year internship, 1 post-doc).
 
joetro said:
I think it depends. If you get external funding, like through the NRSA grant, then probably lots of people would be happy to have you. If you want to go on your own, then you'd probably be looking for people who generally have post-docs and can fund them. I think it depends on your connections and networking, as well as your interests.

Also, many internships have a post-doc component to them, obligating you to a two year committment (1 year internship, 1 post-doc).

That last part is not entirely true - although lots of internship sites also sponsor postdocs, you have to apply separately. In other words, as an intern, you aren't obligated to stay for postdoc. And on the flip side, as an intern, you're not guaranteed a postdoc.

Applying for postdoc is just like applying for a job. Because people are becoming increasingly specialized at that level, you'll find that the competition isn't terribly fierce - there are only so many people who will be interested in the same kinds of postdocs you're interested in. One exception to this may be neuropsych postdocs, just because they are required for board certification.
 
Are post-docs in traditional psychology department settings more difficult to attain than those in medical centers? I did a google search for clinical psychology post-docs and it does seem like more of them are in medical centers. Is the nature of these med ctr post-docs similar to ones in psychology departments?
 
Hi everyone, I am new here. Before I ask my questions, I will briefly introduce myself. I recently earned a ph.d. from an APA approved program in clinical psychology. I am interested in the possibility of being a neuropsychologist. As I understand, according the Houston Guidelines for Neuropsychologists, one would need an APA accrediated internship as well as a formal APA accrediated 2 year postdoctoral position and the passing of the ABPP exam to call oneself a neuropsychologist. In looking at post-doctoral positions, most (obviously) require the submission of a couple of neuropsychological reports. Given the doctoral program I came from, with minial focus on neuro, I don't have neuropsychological reprots for one. It has become more clear to me that I would probably have to go back to school for a respecialization program in neuropsychology. That's another 2 years. I know for most respecilization programs, they have you complete an APA approved internship as well. My predoctoral internship was not APA approved as my school didn't support that, meaning, it wasn't a choice for anyone. Although, the ph.d. program itself was APA approved.
Folks, what I am saying here is that if I want to call myself a neuropsychologist, and practice neuropsychology, I would basically need to go back to school and respecialize for 2 years, then find a post doc for 2 years, and then pass the ABPP requirement. Is that correct? Big Ugh! Any comments are appreciated.
Best,
PSY330
 
Jon Snow said:
No, a long as you are a licensed psychologist, you can practice neuropsychology.


Yes, practice neuropsychology. But I think the title "neuropsychologist" is reserved for those who have satisified the Houston Guidelines. Is that incorrect?

I guess the larger picture is how to gain the experience needed to be competent in practicing neuropsychology. It seems to be a very specilized subfield within psychology requiring extra training. Post docs aren't easy to gain admittence when the clinical program that one comes from has little to do with neuropsychology. It seems being a general well rounded clinician isn't good enough and that specilizing in something starts immediately during doctoral training.
 
psy330 said:
Yes, practice neuropsychology. But I think the title "neuropsychologist" is reserved for those who have satisified the Houston Guidelines. Is that incorrect?.

The guidelines are recommendations thought to reflect adequate training. Basically any licensed clinical psychologist can call themselves a neuropsychologist or "practice" neuropsychology, but to prove they have the proper training they would want to be able to back it up by saying their training is consistent with the Houston Guidelines. The "highest level" of proof is the ABPP in clinical neuropsychology which follows the Houston Guidelines. Not having the proper training is particularly problematic in court where a lawyer will jump all over this issue, and if you are practicing neuropsych, you are bound to end up in court at some point. It is also ethically questionable since it may be a case of practicing outside your scope of expertise if you have no training in neuropsych.
 
Dr.JT said:
The guidelines are recommendations thought to reflect adequate training. Basically any licensed clinical psychologist can call themselves a neuropsychologist or "practice" neuropsychology, but to prove they have the proper training they would want to be able to back it up by saying their training is consistent with the Houston Guidelines. The "highest level" of proof is the ABPP in clinical neuropsychology which follows the Houston Guidelines. Not having the proper training is particularly problematic in court where a lawyer will jump all over this issue, and if you are practicing neuropsych, you are bound to end up in court at some point. It is also ethically questionable since it may be a case of practicing outside your scope of expertise if you have no training in neuropsych.

This clears up alot. I am going to assume the same with forenesic psychology with regard to "proper training" and court appearances.
 
Mell-Dogg said:
Are post-docs in traditional psychology department settings more difficult to attain than those in medical centers? I did a google search for clinical psychology post-docs and it does seem like more of them are in medical centers. Is the nature of these med ctr post-docs similar to ones in psychology departments?

No, they are not the same, and they serve different functions.

I think there may be some confusion stemming from different meanings of the words "post doc." For licensure you need a certain number of supervised clinical post-doctoral hours after you have completed your internship. Some get these hours through formal clinical post-doctoral fellowships which are typically affiliated with medical centers or other large treatment providers. Some get these post doc hours through an ad-hoc post-doc (in which you see your own paying clients while being supervised). Some get hired by treatment centers (i.e. college counseling centers, CMHCs) and are provided supervision until they have accumulated enough hours to get a license. In all of these cases the hours involve clinical contact.

Research post-doctoral fellowships are offered through universities and government institutions. These do not involve clinical hours and do not fulfill licensure requirements though they are a great way to make yourself more competitive for a faculty position. Confusingly enough, they are still called "post-docs." I suspect the post-doc’s you found associated with traditional psychology departments were mostly research post-docs. You can still get licensed if you take a research fellowship (or go directly into academia) but you need to get clinical post-doc hours using one of the methods above.
 
psychgeek said:
No, they are not the same, and they serve different functions.

I think there may be some confusion stemming from different meanings of the words "post doc." For licensure you need a certain number of supervised clinical post-doctoral hours after you have completed your internship. Some get these hours through formal clinical post-doctoral fellowships which are typically affiliated with medical centers or other large treatment providers. Some get these post doc hours through an ad-hoc post-doc (in which you see your own paying clients while being supervised). Some get hired by treatment centers (i.e. college counseling centers, CMHCs) and are provided supervision until they have accumulated enough hours to get a license. In all of these cases the hours involve clinical contact.

Research post-doctoral fellowships are offered through universities and government institutions. These do not involve clinical hours and do not fulfill licensure requirements though they are a great way to make yourself more competitive for a faculty position. Confusingly enough, they are still called "post-docs." I suspect the post-doc’s you found associated with traditional psychology departments were mostly research post-docs. You can still get licensed if you take a research fellowship (or go directly into academia) but you need to get clinical post-doc hours using one of the methods above.

Yes. But...

One can complete enough clinical hours on a research post-doc to get licensed. For example, you can provide treatment as part of a protocol, do assessments (e.g., SCIDs), moonlight, etc.
 
If one were to get lucky enough to attain an NIH F32 Postdoctoral research fellowship (or any other type of postdoc funding external to a specific educational institution), can you take this funding pretty much anywhere or are there only certiain fellowhip sites/psych departments to which NIH funded post-docs typically go to. I would think just about any University would be happy to have an F32-funded postdoc on campus since they're pretty much there free of charge!
 
Mell-Dogg said:
If one were to get lucky enough to attain an NIH F32 Postdoctoral research fellowship (or any other type of postdoc funding external to a specific educational institution), can you take this funding pretty much anywhere or are there only certiain fellowhip sites/psych departments to which NIH funded post-docs typically go to. I would think just about any University would be happy to have an F32-funded postdoc on campus since they're pretty much there free of charge!

Actually, half of the F32 application is focused on the environment and the sponsor (i.e., your advisor). So you need to provide a strong and elaborate justification in the grant as to why your advisor is the best person to mentor your proposed research, and why the institution is the best place to conduct the study. So the grant is written to stay at the place you wrote it for. Of course, there are some exceptions, and if your plans changed, you might be able to work out a deal where it will transfer... but you can't just write it generically for any institution.

Also, it's not actually "free" for the university to sponsor an F32. Grant budgets are typically split between "direct" and "indirect" costs. The indirect costs go to such things as office space, electricity, benefits, etc. For most large NIH grants, a rather high percentage of the proposed direct cost is added as indirect cost to the overall budget in order to support the research. Unfortunately, F32s carry almost no indirect costs, meaning that the institution has to "eat up" the overhead on you. As such, a lot of institutions don't want to sponsor these kinds of grants.

Just an FYI...
 
LM02 said:
Actually, half of the F32 application is focused on the environment and the sponsor (i.e., your advisor). So you need to provide a strong and elaborate justification in the grant as to why your advisor is the best person to mentor your proposed research, and why the institution is the best place to conduct the study. So the grant is written to stay at the place you wrote it for. Of course, there are some exceptions, and if your plans changed, you might be able to work out a deal where it will transfer... but you can't just write it generically for any institution.

Also, it's not actually "free" for the university to sponsor an F32. Grant budgets are typically split between "direct" and "indirect" costs. The indirect costs go to such things as office space, electricity, benefits, etc. For most large NIH grants, a rather high percentage of the proposed direct cost is added as indirect cost to the overall budget in order to support the research. Unfortunately, F32s carry almost no indirect costs, meaning that the institution has to "eat up" the overhead on you. As such, a lot of institutions don't want to sponsor these kinds of grants.

Just an FYI...

Oh, OK. Yeah, I (obviously) know very little about this stage of the game. I'm trying to learn early, though, so I'm not blindsided when it comes time to start thinking seriously about these things! There's so much to learn...
 
Mell-Dogg said:
If one were to get lucky enough to attain an NIH F32 Postdoctoral research fellowship (or any other type of postdoc funding external to a specific educational institution), can you take this funding pretty much anywhere or are there only certiain fellowhip sites/psych departments to which NIH funded post-docs typically go to. I would think just about any University would be happy to have an F32-funded postdoc on campus since they're pretty much there free of charge!

I agree that you can't take an F32 wherever, but I think you may be able to travel with a K-8 award. For the K award you have to specify a mentor, but you don't have to actually work at the mentor's institution.
 
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