Potential CPJE California Board of Pharmacy Hearing

[Johndachen]

Hello fellow students and pharmacists. I’m starting a thread here to collect interest around a “project” I’m working on with a local CA congressman and his staff to hopefully bring forth a pontenial house committee hearing on the California State Board of Pharmacy and wrongful/unjust practices involving the CPJE exam process. Currently this involves a adjunct professor and several pre/post students from two local universities who are leading the charge. We are just in the preliminary stages of conversation which involves collecting data and providing impact statements to the congressman’s staff for a meeting in early Jan 2019. Our main focus is wait times, national vs state pass rates and the hardships this exam has created due to its revamp of it’s content in the last couple years. If you would like to contribute a statement of your personal expiernce related to extended wait periods, exam content, or any other hardships the CPJE has caused you please contact me directly at johndachen@protonmail or send me a private DM. All statements will be de-identified and keep confidential unless you give us permission to use your name otherwise. Thank you for your time!

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[Corytrade]

Difficulty of the test doesn't bother me, but the wait times are ridiculous.

 

[zelman]

Making the test easier to pass will increase the number of people passing and lower salaries. You are doing those of us who are licensed in CA a disservice.

 

[Johndachen]

Making the test easier to pass will increase the number of people passing and lower salaries. You are doing those of us who are licensed in CA a disservice.

I agree with that statement. With that said our biggest focus will be on the more recent delays in processing times as it is creating hardships for many people. Overall our intent is only to bring factual info to the meeting and hopefully be more inline with other states in the end. What we don’t want is for this to be one of the hardest and most time consuming tests in the country which many claim it to be now.

 

[BMBiology]

It wasn’t that long time ago when:

- you have to complete 1500 internship hours before you can take the CPJE. California pharmacy schools got together and got rid of it because it was creating “hardships” (aka so we can keep on increasing class size)

- before the CPJE, the exam was a written exam and it was only given twice a year. The pass rate was less than 50%. Of course that also created “hardships”.

It is harder to get licensed in California because it is already saturated with pharmacists. Everyone and their mom want to live here. No wonder salaries have gone down.

The real world doesn’t care about your “hardships”. CVS treats their pharmacists like crap. Why don’t you do something about that?

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[steveysmith54]

I had hardships getting a job and due to short staffing, I had hardship meeting metrics and providing good customer care, such as counseling to help the pts. Can you help me or schedule a meeting for me?

 

[steveysmith54]

I also hope that you recognize that there is an large amount of students who take CPJE who attended schools outside of California and they historically have had lower passing rates bc out of state schools and rotations tend to have different pharmacy laws.

From what I’ve been told, CA BOP has a policy to conduct quality assurance that allows them to grade a sufficient amount of exams before they release test results. This has been going on for a long time.

Sounds like the schools that you speak of can’t train their students at an adequate level to pass the exam and also also don’t know to instruct their students to sign up for the exam in a timely manner to decrease the time that it may take to get the results

 

[MatCauthon]

It's too hard to pass the test! Waiting for the next 5 years when the watered-down pharmacy classes start saying the NAPLEX is a hardship too.

 

[youRCC]

Other states have figured out how to register, grade and post exam results ONLINE in a timely manner (1 week or less), why can't CA?

 

[PharmtoCS]

If you don’t like the difficulty of the CPJE then you’re welcome to get licensed in other states. It’s not like there are enough jobs anyway. In fact, many are being forced to move out or stay out due to the lack of jobs in the state.

 

[steveysmith54]

Other states have figured out how to register, grade and post exam results ONLINE in a timely manner (1 week or less), why can't CA?

Every state is different. Take for example, New York, has a Compounding Exam. Should they eliminate the compounding exam? Does that create hardship or delay licensing? Some states require intern hours outside of rotations. From my understanding, CA BOP wants to frequently write new questions in order to preserve the integrity of the exam and needs certain amount of people to take the exam before they release the exam scores. Don't like it, move for couple of months somewhere else before you get licensed in CA.

 

[BMBiology]

Other states have figured out how to register, grade and post exam results ONLINE in a timely manner (1 week or less), why can't CA?

Let’s be real here. People discuss exam questions and answers after they have taken the exam and therefore, they make the exam less reliable. Look at this fool who got caught selling pirated materials and actual exam questions:

The board probably had to get rid of these contaminated questions. This is why the board needs a certain number of test takers before they release the results, just to make sure the questions they count are still reliable but of course if you ended up failing this exam in July and retaking it in October then you would have to wait longer since there are not as many exam takers in October. If you had passed it in July, you should find out your result that same month. Study your butt off, pass it in July and move on with your life.

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[youRCC]

Every state is different. Take for example, New York, has a Compounding Exam. Should they eliminate the compounding exam? Does that create hardship or delay licensing? Some states require intern hours outside of rotations. From my understanding, CA BOP wants to frequently write new questions in order to preserve the integrity of the exam and needs certain amount of people to take the exam before they release the exam scores. Don't like it, move for couple of months somewhere else before you get licensed in CA.

Let’s be real here. People discuss exam questions and answers after they have taken the exam and therefore, they make the exam less reliable. Look at this fool who got caught selling pirated materials and actual exam questions:

View attachment 244094

The board probably had to get rid of these contaminated questions. This is why the board needs a certain number of test takers before they release the results, just to make sure the questions they count are still reliable but of course if you ended up failing this exam in July and retaking it in October then you would have to wait longer since there are not as many exam takers in October. If you had passed it in July, you should find out your result that same month. Study your butt off, pass it in July and move on with your life.

Not sure why both of you quoted me but we're talking about 2 totally different things. My main 2 points: ONLINE (streamlined) and QUICK. I get that @BMBiology explains 'the why' it takes so long for CA BOP to release and post CPJE results but that's one instance in the whole slew of this mess at CA BOP.

'Showerthought': many other states' MPJEs don't have the problems with rampant cheating or the need to go through 'quality assurance' like the CPJE, and still test what other states need to test and spew out results in a timely and efficient manner. Maybe that tells us something something about the CPJE...

Oh and @BMBiology the whole July vs. October thing is off. If you ever follow predate threads, it's pretty much ~6 weeks per batch no matter what season it is.

 

[BMBiology]

Oh and @BMBiology the whole July vs. October thing is off. If you ever follow predate threads, it's pretty much ~6 weeks per batch no matter what season it is.

Oh big deal...take the CPJE in July and get licensed in August. Start working in Sept. What is the problem here?

 

[Johndachen]

Thank you for all the feedback. I wasn’t expecting to receive over 50 public and private messages! I’ll reach out to some of you that expressed interest next week to share next steps. All your feedback will be carried forward.

 

[youRCC]

Oh big deal...take the CPJE in July and get licensed in August. Start working in Sept. What is the problem here?

If other states can compress this process (register -> exam -> license) into 1 month or less, why can't CA?

You're completely skipping the whole process from pre-CPJE exam day. Yeah, July CPJE -> August results -> September license, is not the biggest deal, but the summation of the entire process in CA is the problem here. And God-forbid you bomb 1 or both of the exams...then you're waiting even more months for the retake app. I've had classmates from other states that were already licensed before I even got my approval for CA NAPLEX and CPJE.

'If you don't like it, don't come/move out of CA' - sure, but the question here is 'why'? Why can't CA be just as efficient, timely, and online? In other states, the BOP is a well oiled machine or at least a part of it (e.g., CO DORA). Why can't CA be the same? Why are they so hesitant/what is preventing them from moving into the 21st century...today?

It's not even the problem with fresh grads either. I've talked to veteran pharmacists who have sent in their renewals ASAP, and have admitted to working on expired licenses at one point in their careers since CA BOP haven't updated their info yet. They just tell me 'that's how it is - CA BOP is just slow'. Seriously...

 

[zelman]

If other states can compress this process (register -> exam -> license) into 1 month or less, why can't CA?

You're completely skipping the whole process from pre-CPJE exam day. Yeah, July CPJE -> August results -> September license, is not the biggest deal, but the summation of the entire process in CA is the problem here. And God-forbid you bomb 1 or both of the exams...then you're waiting even more months for the retake app. I've had classmates from other states that were already licensed before I even got my approval for CA NAPLEX and CPJE.

'If you don't like it, don't come/move out of CA' - sure, but the question here is 'why'? Why can't CA be just as efficient, timely, and online? In other states, the BOP is a well oiled machine or at least a part of it (e.g., CO DORA). Why can't CA be the same? Why are they so hesitant/what is preventing them from moving into the 21st century...today?

It's not even the problem with fresh grads either. I've talked to veteran pharmacists who have sent in their renewals ASAP, and have admitted to working on expired licenses at one point in their careers since CA BOP haven't updated their info yet. They just tell me 'that's how it is - CA BOP is just slow'. Seriously...

California has this crazy idea that pharmacists should be good at what they do. NAPLEX is a minimum competently exam. Passing it means you won’t be found to be grossly negligent/incompetent at a trial if you kill someone. The CPJE is designed to keep you from practicing if you’re going to kill someone.

 

[youRCC]

California has this crazy idea that pharmacists should be good at what they do. NAPLEX is a minimum competently exam. Passing it means you won’t be found to be grossly negligent/incompetent at a trial if you kill someone. The CPJE is designed to keep you from practicing if you’re going to kill someone.

We're talking about 2 totally different things. My main 2 points: ONLINE (streamlined) and QUICK.

 

[zelman]

We're talking about 2 totally different things. My main 2 points: ONLINE (streamlined) and QUICK.

California licensure is delayed primarily due to the quality assurance process of the CPJE. Anecdotally, I’ve gotten licensed in 4 states this decade and none of them did any significant part of it online. There are states that do, but it is far from the standard. I don’t see this situation as “unjust”

 

[prepharmacist]

There are states that do, but it is far from the standard. I don’t see this situation as “unjust”

Is the standard to be slow and remain outdated? How does it make sense to you that the process to grade an exam and get licensed can take up almost 2 months??

The NAPLEX exam is graded and updated in the system in few days, while CPJE exam takes a lifetime to get graded. I doubt the quality of grading the CPJE exam is any better than the NAPLEX exam. It should be all computerized now. In regards to waiting for 400 people to take these exams, why do we even have 15 untestable questions if they don't matter in the end?!!!

Another thing about the NAPLEX exam, I had to wait 2 weeks to know my specific score but I knew I passed after 3 days of taking the NAPLEX exam under CPE monitor. Why aren't our exam scores posted online? It is like the people working in the CA BOP are incapable of adapting to any changes and they are doing things in a very old fashioned way.

 

[zelman]

Is the standard to be slow and remain outdated? How does it make sense to you that the process to grade an exam and get licensed can take up almost 2 months??

The NAPLEX exam is graded and updated in the system in few days, while CPJE exam takes a lifetime to get graded. I doubt the quality of grading the CPJE exam is any better than the NAPLEX exam. It should be all computerized now. In regards to waiting for 400 people to take these exams, why do we even have 15 untestable questions if they don't matter in the end?!!!

Another thing about the NAPLEX exam, I had to wait 2 weeks to know my specific score but I knew I passed after 3 days of taking the NAPLEX exam under CPE monitor. Why aren't our exam scores posted online? It is like the people working in the CA BOP are incapable of adapting to any changes and they are doing things in a very old fashioned way.

You know this industry is built around a system of illegible chicken scratch on scraps of paper, right? Do you really think process modernization is a high priority? Just because it can be done better doesn’t mean one can reasonably expect it to happen. You need to take the reality of the situation into account.

 

[lord999]

California licensure is delayed primarily due to the quality assurance process of the CPJE. Anecdotally, I’ve gotten licensed in 4 states this decade and none of them did any significant part of it online. There are states that do, but it is far from the standard. I don’t see this situation as “unjust”

Being licensed there, that's what they tell the public. The reality is that the office is far too understaffed to deal with even regular business, so customer service suffers. I would be ok with them quadrupling license fees (to the tune of $800 to $1200 a year, in fact) if it funded the office to strength. While the amount seems high, the hours of effort are in-line with some of the other occupations.

 

[owlegrad]

In regards to waiting for 400 people to take these exams, why do we even have 15 untestable questions if they don't matter in the end?!!!

Don’t all standardized tests do that to validate new exam questions?



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[Sine Cura]

Anecdotally at least in regard to complaints

California Board of Dentistry responds to complaints very fast (less than 2 months)

Board of Pharmacy is glacial in comparison (> 1 year for a legitimate fake Rx complaint from a prescriber)

 

[prepharmacist]

Don’t all standardized tests do that to validate new exam questions?

I get why they add 15 extra questions for future exam questions. But after these questions are validated, why do we have to wait for at least 400 other students to take these exam questions? Basically, I am questioning their validation and quality assurance process. There is no way it should take this long and I don't know how they came up with waiting for 400 test takers to do whatever assessments they do.
The NAPLEX and MPJE exam results are posted in less than 7 business days.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Every state is different. Take for example, New York, has a Compounding Exam. Should they eliminate the compounding exam? Does that create hardship or delay licensing? Some states require intern hours outside of rotations. From my understanding, CA BOP wants to frequently write new questions in order to preserve the integrity of the exam and needs certain amount of people to take the exam before they release the exam scores. Don't like it, move for couple of months somewhere else before you get licensed in CA.

Yeah but the compounding exam in NY and GA is different. You can work a year in a diff state that doesn't require it and then reciprocate into NY without taking the C. test (as long as you haven't taken and failed it first). There is no way around Cali's "clinical" law test.

 

[Sine Cura]

Again the BOP is slow. Think how long it takes to deal with real issues.

The last time my pharmacy was investigated for a complaint early 2016 it took until August 2017 to hear from the BOP and Oct 2017 for the BOP to render a decision.

Attached is an example of a complaint I have no idea about (and the staff before my time don't know what it might be about). I didn't know anything about any BOP investigation for all of 2018 then this pops out of the blue for something that was initiated in 2017.

 

[steveysmith54]

Yeah but the compounding exam in NY and GA is different. You can work a year in a diff state that doesn't require it and then reciprocate into NY without taking the C. test (as long as you haven't taken and failed it first). There is no way around Cali's "clinical" law test.

Didn't know that. So would you recommend new grads who want to work in NY to move to a different state and wait it out for 1 year instead of taking that exam?

Not too sure what the issue with CPJE is, I took mine in August, got my results abt 4 weeks later, and got licensed in the first week of October. I heard people who took it later had to wait 3-4 months to get licensed, but why shoot yourself in the foot? Just take it when everyone else does.

Also, don't get what part of the exam is paper format? Took mine in the early 2010's, and it was electronic. If the BOP believes that there should be higher standards and a longer QA process, so be it. They already got rid of 900 outside work hrs requirement to appease the deans of new schools. Enjoy that.

If anything, I'd be more pissed abt NY, why a compounding exam? Most pharmacists just count by fives and don't need to compound.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Didn't know that. So would you recommend new grads who want to work in NY to move to a different state and wait it out for 1 year instead of taking that exam?

Not too sure what the issue with CPJE is, I took mine in August, got my results abt 4 weeks later, and got licensed in the first week of October. I heard people who took it later had to wait 3-4 months to get licensed, but why shoot yourself in the foot? Just take it when everyone else does.

Also, don't get what part of the exam is paper format? Took mine in the early 2010's, and it was electronic. If the BOP believes that there should be higher standards and a longer QA process, so be it. They already got rid of 900 outside work hrs requirement to appease the deans of new schools. Enjoy that.

If anything, I'd be more pissed abt NY, why a compounding exam? Most pharmacists just count by fives and don't need to compound.

the NY C. Exam is in Albany, NY and it's a two day test. So you have to travel all the way there then pay for a hotel and pay for the exam. It's a lot of money and a lot of time.

 

[njac]

While my CA ATT took eons to come through, once I took the exam I believe I was licensed within a Month. I happened to hit the sweet spot between QAs.

I have/had 4 pharmacist licenses. I would rather take the CPJE than an MPJE any day, and I didn’t go to school or do either residency in CA.


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[WorthlessOxygen]

the NY C. Exam is in Albany, NY and it's a two day test. So you have to travel all the way there then pay for a hotel and pay for the exam. It's a lot of money and a lot of time.

There are three testing sites in NYC and one each in Buffalo and Rochester, you don't necessarily need to go to Albany

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[Modest_anteater]

There are three testing sites in NYC and one each in Buffalo and Rochester, you don't necessarily need to go to Albany

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Thank you for this.

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

While my CA ATT took eons to come through, once I took the exam I believe I was licensed within a Month. I happened to hit the sweet spot between QAs.

I have/had 4 pharmacist licenses. I would rather take the CPJE than an MPJE any day, and I didn’t go to school or do either residency in CA.


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I'm interested in getting a CA license. Would you mind explaining why you would rather take CPJE over MPJE?
Or is this just a sarcasm... lol

 

[UGAZ]

Can you make the exam extremely hard? I will give you an idea: Make an exam with 500 questions to be done in 4 hours. Throw in at least 200 case-scenario wise...Then make only 20% of CPJE applicants are allow to pass. Thanks.

 

[zelman]

the NY C. Exam is in Albany, NY and it's a two day test. So you have to travel all the way there then pay for a hotel and pay for the exam. It's a lot of money and a lot of time.

It’s offered at multiple schools of pharmacy. I took it at LIU.

 

[zelman]

Didn't know that. So would you recommend new grads who want to work in NY to move to a different state and wait it out for 1 year instead of taking that exam?

Not too sure what the issue with CPJE is, I took mine in August, got my results abt 4 weeks later, and got licensed in the first week of October. I heard people who took it later had to wait 3-4 months to get licensed, but why shoot yourself in the foot? Just take it when everyone else does.

Also, don't get what part of the exam is paper format? Took mine in the early 2010's, and it was electronic. If the BOP believes that there should be higher standards and a longer QA process, so be it. They already got rid of 900 outside work hrs requirement to appease the deans of new schools. Enjoy that.

If anything, I'd be more pissed abt NY, why a compounding exam? Most pharmacists just count by fives and don't need to compound.

New grads should contact the board in their final year and find out how to qualify to take the exam in January before they graduate.

 

[Modest_anteater]

I'm interested in getting a CA license. Would you mind explaining why you would rather take CPJE over MPJE?
Or is this just a sarcasm... lol

I think in 2018 the CPJE had a lower pass rate than the NAPLX.... so that would be telling...

 

[njac]

I'm interested in getting a CA license. Would you mind explaining why you would rather take CPJE over MPJE?
Or is this just a sarcasm... lol

MPJE is usually 100 questions of only law.

Cpje is only like 30% law. I know brand/generic, what is stable in what diluent - if you’ve actually worked as a pharmacist the CPJE is ridiculously easy. Or was, when I took it in 2011.

I’ve taken 3 MPJEs and 1 CPJE - and my CPJE score was >10% higher than my next highest MPJE.

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[GrandTheftAutumn]

MPJE is usually 100 questions of only law.

Cpje is only like 30% law. I know brand/generic, what is stable in what diluent - if you’ve actually worked as a pharmacist the CPJE is ridiculously easy. Or was, when I took it in 2011.

I’ve taken 3 MPJEs and 1 CPJE - and my CPJE score was >10% higher than my next highest MPJE.

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Sweet, maybe I have a good shot at CPJE.

I actually kind of started on the application process.
I sent the board of pharmacy in my state to verify my license (since California BOP requires that).
I mailed it with a detailed message almost a month ago but nothing from them thus far.
I'll call my state BOP soon but thus far, the biggest hurdle seems to be my state BOP to do their part.

 

[MrBonita]

There use to be 3 pharmacy schools when I was a student. Now there are 15. It explains why the Board of Pharmacy is so busy. Give it some time. A bunch of new schools is impacting the amount of exam takers. In about 4 to 5 years after they collect all those fees, they will begin to hire more staff. Remember, 2018 is the first year for about 10 new schools to have students in California. About 1000 extra test takers.

 

[MindGeek]

There are three testing sites in NYC and one each in Buffalo and Rochester, you don't necessarily need to go to Albany

it's a two day test

It’s offered at multiple schools of pharmacy. I took it at LIU.

There are multiple sites for the New York State Compounding (Part III) Exam, but do those intending to take the compounding day in Rochester still have to go to Buffalo for the first day? The challenge sessions (for those within 10 points of passing) are only held in Albany and Manhattan, on two different days, with a preference asked for morning or afternoon seating).

retaking it in October then you would have to wait longer since there are not as many exam takers in October. If you had passed it in July, you should find out your result that same month

In regards to the speed of processing state written exams, results for the hand-graded Part III typically arrive in the mail 30 to 37 days after the 2nd exam day: June 2016 - 33 days; January 2016 - 33 days; June 2015 - 37 days; January 2015 - 36 days; June 2014 - 33 days; January 2013 - 33 days; June 2012 - 30 days. Challenge session results were issued 20 days after the session for the January 2015 exam and 16 days after for the June 2014 exam.

Is the standard to be slow and remain outdated? How does it make sense to you that the process to grade an exam and get licensed can take up almost 2 months??

In regards to different states' speed of processing applications, with everything else out of the way except for each respective state's MPJE results posting, my 2nd state took 6 days between the MPJE results posting on NABP's site and when my initial registration was issued. 3rd state was 13 days. 4th state was 52 days but part of that could be that they may batch all new registrations together on the last business day of the month. With the MPJE and Part III out of the way, my NY registration was issued 8 days after my NAPLEX results were posted on NABP's site.

Is the standard to be slow and remain outdated?

In regards to being outdated, out-of-state applicants for a license in NJ cannot use their contracted (nationwide) digital fingerprinting vendor. I had to have my fingerprints inked at my local precinct and then mailed out to be scanned off of the card, when I could have easily just gone to my nearest Identogo, or even driven to an Identogo within NJ state limits if it was allowed. Not surprisingly the whole process of getting licensed in NJ took 120 days for me, from when I submitted the application to when my initial registration online was granted.

I would be ok with them quadrupling license fees (to the tune of $800 to $1200 a year, in fact) if it funded the office to strength.

In regards to licensing fees, my grand total for getting licensed in NY was $2,034 (including the NAPLEX), with $675 of that just on Part III registrations, Part III challenge session fees, and Part III prep. My 2nd state (app. + first reg. + NAPLEX score transfer + MPJE test) cost me $385. 3rd state cost me $609. 4th state cost me $807.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

There are multiple sites for the New York State Compounding (Part III) Exam, but do those intending to take the compounding day in Rochester still have to go to Buffalo for the first day? The challenge sessions (for those within 10 points of passing) are only held in Albany and Manhattan, on two different days, with a preference asked for morning or afternoon seating).

Yeah, Tuoro and St John Fisher are both only testing centers for day 2. All I was really trying to say was that you don't really need to get a hotel in Albany.