Potential Earnings of Neurologist

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

igotmyswag

New Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
I am curious if anyone knows the potential earnings of a hard working neurologist. I know that this whole "universal healthcare" mumbo jumbo is definitely going to skew the outcome in a negative way; but with our current system, can neurologist really do well? If so, by what methods?

Members don't see this ad.
 
I am curious if anyone knows the potential earnings of a hard working neurologist. I know that this whole "universal healthcare" mumbo jumbo is definitely going to skew the outcome in a negative way; but with our current system, can neurologist really do well? If so, by what methods?

I too would be very interested in this information.
 
I am curious if anyone knows the potential earnings of a hard working neurologist. I know that this whole "universal healthcare" mumbo jumbo is definitely going to skew the outcome in a negative way; but with our current system, can neurologist really do well? If so, by what methods?

This question gets asked quite a bit on here. Check a few of the older threads as there were some good responses given. The answer to your questions is going to be highly dependent on many factors; private vs. academic, large group practice vs. hospital employed, general neurology vs. fellowship trained, how many procedures you do, and one of the largest factors being the region in which you practice. Time intensive and H&P driven stuff in neurology won't pay as well due to prolonged office visits when compared to procedure based. Below is a good response from an older thread.



The problem with this kind of question is that the mean variance of salary by region,city, and practice type makes the data essentially impossible to draw conclusions from. A neuromuscular specialist in an academic practice in Boston makes a salary far different from one in Topeka. As far as lifestyle, this also varies greatly, depending on the size of the practice, and the degree to which you can specialize within that practice. For instance, if you're joining a small practice that has admitting priveleges at multiple hospitals, then your calls are going to be frequent and busy. Junior members of a large neurology practice often don't get to see only the cases they choose to specialize in, but rather have to "share the load" of the patients that nobody wants to deal with, which can make for an annoying time-sink.

In my opinion, the best way to get useful answers to these questions is to ask around when you are on your interviews. Your candidate programs should be able to give you some ballpark answers to your questions, and/or put you in contact with some of the specialists so you can ask them directly.

The bottom line is that within any subspecialty, you can likely find a practice that will suit your lifestyle, unless you want to make $800 grand a year and work three days a week. Choose a specialty that you actually enjoy, and the rest will follow.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Here was one more response that I found helpful:

Look, here is the story:

1. You will not find any meaningful data on this, anywhere.

2. The "gold standard" for physician salary reporting in general is the annual MGMA Productivity and Compensation survey; you should be able to find it in your friendly neighborhood med school library. It gives pretty good data on neurology (and other specialist) salaries in general.

3. Fellowship training only gets you more money if the following three conditions are met:
a. during fellowship you pick up procedural skills that bill/reimburse at a high rate (for neurologists this means EMG, sleep, botox, +/-EEG), and
b. your job allows you to perform lots of these, and
c. your compensation is determined by how much you bill/collect, as opposed to flat salary.

Now, there are lots of interesting subspecialties in neuro, but many (neurobehavior, MS, movement, headache, to name a few) are really still just history-and-exam based, meaning you spend a lot of time talking to and examing the patient and writing some Rx's, all of which is very time consuming and on an hour-by-hour basis doesn't get you much financial return. In the time it takes to do one really good comprehensive neurobehavior/dementia exam, you can have done 3 EMGs or popped botox into about 10 patients.

You are correct that you don't "need" a fellowship to do/get paid for many neurology procedures. If you had a solid residency program, you can do lots of stuff reasonably competently. So you are correct that in many cases a fellowship is primarily an exercise in "skill sharpening"

That being said, the learning curve between residency and fellowship training for most "procedural" stuff in neurology is pretty steep. Having done fellowship training, I can tell you with confidence that I am, oh, about a million times better at neurophys test interpretation than I was prior to fellowship, and I had pretty good residency training. Now, you might say, "so what, you can pick that up on the job as you work." That may or may not be true, and is highly dependent on your work environment. If you're working at Big Sucker Academic Medical Mecca with dozens of subspecialists running around giving lectures and showing you how to do stuff to really esoteric patients, you may well pick up a lot. But the vast majority of practicing neurologists are in solo or small group practices where they don't have a lot of academic support and are doing a limited amount of mostly bread and butter cases: lots of carpal tunnel EMGs, lots of normal EEGs on patients with something other than epilepsy. You don't really get better that way. Who ultimately suffers for your relative lack of experience? That's right, it's the patient you end up misdiagnosing or sending out for a zillion other unnecessary tests.

So, if you plan to be an office based, low acuity general neurologist, and aren't gunning for big bucks, I'd say you can safely skip a fellowship. But if you a) have a burning desire to subspecialize, b) want to be really good at cranking out highly reimbursing procedures, or c) just want to "be all that you can be," then you should probably do a fellowship.
 
This question gets asked quite a bit on here. Check a few of the older threads as there were some good responses given. The answer to your questions is going to be highly dependent on many factors; private vs. academic, large group practice vs. hospital employed, general neurology vs. fellowship trained, how many procedures you do, and one of the largest factors being the region in which you practice. Time intensive and H&P driven stuff in neurology won't pay as well due to prolonged office visits when compared to procedure based. Below is a good response from an older thread.


How much do academic neurologists make?
 
Some actual numbers - as that was the original question - right?
Per the AAMC website:
And I would also add as the others above - yes of course regional variation, and cognitive vs procedural practice differences will affect the salary significantly.
But here's what you should expect - generally - and I agree with the numbers from what I've seen and have been offered in my practice search.

Salary information

The annual salary for neurologists ranges from $203,200 to $298,503.2
For more information


References
1 The American Board of Medical Specialties. Guide to Physician Specialties. Evanston, IL: American Board of Medical Specialties; February 2008.
2 2008 Physician Compensation Survey [special feature]. Modern Healthcare. July 14, 2008: 28-32.
 
Thanks for the great info on academic salaries. I was checking the University of California income database, and I pulled up these very attractive total pays for professors at UCLA Neurology. And I thought life as a academic neurology was like a pauper... Close to $500K is really nice!

First NameARTHUR WLast NameTOGASalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-GENCOMP-BDepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$219,975Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$267,856Total Pay$487,830

First NameJOHNLast NameMAZZIOTTASalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$235,856Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$197,628Total Pay$433,484
First NameROBERT WLast NameBALOHSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$250,704Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$114,296Total Pay$365,000
First NameJEFFREY LLast NameCUMMINGSSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$226,681Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$79,311Total Pay$305,992
First NameJOSEPH L,MDLast NameDEMERSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$189,275Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$113,374Total Pay$302,649
First NameJEROME,JRLast NameENGELSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$250,824Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$89,176Total Pay$340,000
First NameMARC RLast NameNUWERSalary Year2007Job TitlePROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$170,590Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$168,167Total Pay$338,758
First NameMICHAEL ALast NameROGAWSKISalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-GENCOMP-BDepartmentUC DAVISRegular Pay$216,590Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$115,910Total Pay$332,500
First NameSTEPHEN LLast NameHAUSERSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC SAN FRANCISCORegular Pay$170,272Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$180,071Total Pay$350,343
 
Thanks for the great info on academic salaries. I was checking the University of California income database, and I pulled up these very attractive total pays for professors at UCLA Neurology. And I thought life as a academic neurology was like a pauper... Close to $500K is really nice!

First NameARTHUR WLast NameTOGASalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-GENCOMP-BDepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$219,975Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$267,856Total Pay$487,830

First NameJOHNLast NameMAZZIOTTASalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$235,856Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$197,628Total Pay$433,484
First NameROBERT WLast NameBALOHSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$250,704Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$114,296Total Pay$365,000
First NameJEFFREY LLast NameCUMMINGSSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$226,681Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$79,311Total Pay$305,992
First NameJOSEPH L,MDLast NameDEMERSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$189,275Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$113,374Total Pay$302,649
First NameJEROME,JRLast NameENGELSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$250,824Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$89,176Total Pay$340,000
First NameMARC RLast NameNUWERSalary Year2007Job TitlePROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC LOS ANGELESRegular Pay$170,590Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$168,167Total Pay$338,758
First NameMICHAEL ALast NameROGAWSKISalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-GENCOMP-BDepartmentUC DAVISRegular Pay$216,590Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$115,910Total Pay$332,500
First NameSTEPHEN LLast NameHAUSERSalary Year2007Job TitlePROFESSOR-MEDCOMP-ADepartmentUC SAN FRANCISCORegular Pay$170,272Overtime Pay$0Other Pay$180,071Total Pay$350,343

I think all of those are full time professors, right? I looked at a few of the assistant professors and found out this info:


First Name YVETTE M
Last Name BORDELON
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASST PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $91,031
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $19,960
Total Pay $110,991

First Name KEVIN CHRISTOPHE
Last Name BRENNAN
Salary Year 2007
Job Title HS CLIN INSTRUCTOR-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $49,446
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $20,554
Total Pay $70,000

For associate professors:

First Name PAUL M
Last Name VESPA
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $153,426
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $123,406
Total Pay $276,832

First Name NANCY L
Last Name SICOTTE
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $104,052
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $60,944
Total Pay $164,996

First Name GAIL PATRICE
Last Name ISHIYAMA
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASST PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $101,383
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $33,612
Total Pay $134,995

First Name LEIF A.
Last Name HAVTON
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $109,241
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $137,985
Total Pay $247,226

First Name STANLEY THOMAS
Last Name CARMICHAEL
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $104,060
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $69,878
Total Pay $173,938



As you can see the salary varies quite a bit from one professor to another even within the same professorship category.
 
"Other pay" is probably coming from grants. If you do research, you will definitely have additional income.
For big name and senior professors, money may also come from special funds, like endowed professorships - those can pay a lot.
 
One Neurologist in my home town said he made 400,000 dollars last year and that most people could not work as hard as him. He said it was realistic to think that you could make 300,000 + in a good practice after five to ten years. Starting salary would be more like 175,000.
 
I think all of those are full time professors, right? I looked at a few of the assistant professors and found out this info:


First Name YVETTE M
Last Name BORDELON
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASST PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $91,031
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $19,960
Total Pay $110,991

First Name KEVIN CHRISTOPHE
Last Name BRENNAN
Salary Year 2007
Job Title HS CLIN INSTRUCTOR-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $49,446
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $20,554
Total Pay $70,000

For associate professors:

First Name PAUL M
Last Name VESPA
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $153,426
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $123,406
Total Pay $276,832

First Name NANCY L
Last Name SICOTTE
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $104,052
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $60,944
Total Pay $164,996

First Name GAIL PATRICE
Last Name ISHIYAMA
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASST PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $101,383
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $33,612
Total Pay $134,995

First Name LEIF A.
Last Name HAVTON
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $109,241
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $137,985
Total Pay $247,226

First Name STANLEY THOMAS
Last Name CARMICHAEL
Salary Year 2007
Job Title ASSOC PROF IN RES-MEDCOMP-A
Department UC LOS ANGELES
Regular Pay $104,060
Overtime Pay $0
Other Pay $69,878
Total Pay $173,938



As you can see the salary varies quite a bit from one professor to another even within the same professorship category.

This is misleading...I would suspect that the clinical instructor is probably a PhD and not an MD working in the neurology DEPARTMENT....be careful here!!!
 
This is misleading...I would suspect that the clinical instructor is probably a PhD and not an MD working in the neurology DEPARTMENT....be careful here!!!

Wrong, KEVIN BRENNAN is a MD.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Guys, these salaries are not representative of academic neurologists. You need to understand that several of the "high salary" professors are Chairs or have "endowed Chairs" after decades of work. In addition, you need to factor in the sub-specialty (procedures vs not), payer mix (lots of insured vs high % of indigents), administrative duties (chair, chief, director, etc.), type of activity (reseach, clinical, education), academic title (professor, associate, assistant, etc.), type and location of institution (Public vs Private; NE vs SE vs SW vs W), and track (tenure vs non-tenure track). My next post on this thread will have some AAMC data.

2007-8 Neurology Faculty - All Medical Schools

Instructor
Count: 105
25th: 66K
Median: 115K
75th: 142K
Mean: 111.4K

Assistant Professor
Count: 943
25th: 123K
Median: 139K
75th: 163K
Mean: 147.3K

Associate Professor
Count: 550
25th: 150K
Median: 172K
75th: 205K
Mean: 179.8K

Professor
Count: 603
25th: 182K
Median: 210K
75th: 242K
Mean: 219.7K

Chief
Count: 53
25th: 191K
Median: 213K
75th: 258K
Mean: 234.1K

Chair
Count: 93
25th: 285K
Median: 333K
75th: 389K
Mean: 348.8K

Source: AAMC
 
Last edited:
Guys, these salaries are not representative of academic neurologists. You need to understand that several of the "high salary" professors are Chairs or have "endowed Chairs" after decades of work. In addition, you need to factor in the sub-specialty (procedures vs not), payer mix (lots of insured vs high % of indigents), administrative duties (chair, chief, director, etc.), type of activity (reseach, clinical, education), academic title (professor, associate, assistant, etc.), type and location of institution (Public vs Private; NE vs SE vs SW vs W), and track (tenure vs non-tenure track). My next post on this thread will have some AAMC data.

2007-8 Neurology Faculty - All Medical Schools

Instructor
Count: 105
25th: 66K
Median: 115K
75th: 142K
Mean: 111.4K

Assistant Professor
Count: 943
25th: 123K
Median: 139K
75th: 163K
Mean: 147.3K

Associate Professor
Count: 550
25th: 150K
Median: 172K
75th: 205K
Mean: 179.8K

Professor
Count: 603
25th: 182K
Median: 210K
75th: 242K
Mean: 219.7K

Chief
Count: 53
25th: 191K
Median: 213K
75th: 258K
Mean: 234.1K

Chair
Count: 93
25th: 285K
Median: 333K
75th: 389K
Mean: 348.8K

Source: AAMC

What's the diff with Chair/Chief?
 
What's the diff with Chair/Chief?

Some medical schools have Departments of Neurology while some have Divisions of Neurology (within typically Departments of Medicine). A Department functions as a Cost Center with the administrative responsability of hiring/firing and balancing their budget. A Division has some administrative functions but typically balancing the financials occurs at the Dept. of Medicine. For a resident or a student, there is little impact as to whether Neurology is in a Department or Division. It makes a much bigger difference at faculty level. Department Chairs report to the Dean, Division chief only report to the Department Chair.
 
What's the diff with Chair/Chief?

Wow...as cool as neurology is, I dont like these numbers. I mean I dont plan on choosing a profession solely for money, but to work so hard as a student, and do well and then earn a salary of 120 to 150 as an assistant or associate(and who says I could ever become a full time professor?) and work 10 years is just ridiculous. I mean its just unfair. I could do just as well as a PhD researcher and not have to spend a dime on tuition. Why even bother?
 
Why even bother?

Because its fun. Seriously, that's the reason.

You don't become academic faculty for the money. You do it to teach, work in with amazing people in a collegial (hopefully) environment, play with the latest research toys, etc. You do it to spend more of your time worrying about patients and less time worrying about your practice's bottom line. You do it to have easy access to research subjects. You do it to think about how the nervous system works, and how to learn to fix it better.

If these benefits don't offset the lower salary in your mind, then you're welcome to explore private practice opportunities. You won't find many people who will argue that the earnings potential is higher in the private sector.
 
You do it to spend more of your time worrying about patients and less time worrying about your practice's bottom line.

I beg to differ. Even academic centers have to address the bottom line. I am in an academic center and believe me, we spend a lot of time talking about all things financial. If I want any of those new toys you mentioned (or even upgrades of the old ones) I have to justify it in terms of dollars and cents. If I want additional clinical or admin staff, I have to justify it in terms of dollars and cents. If I want time for research, I have demonstrate that either my clinical productivity will not suffer or that I have some kind of funding to offset my time. I will grant you that the department chief spends more of his time on these issues than I do, but it's a constant presence in your life -- you really can't hide your head in some academic cloud and be oblivious to it. In fact, it's probably better to keep in touch with these issues so that when word comes down from the powers that be that "everyone now has to see an additional 2 patients a day" you'll understand why.

I would actually argue that at least in private practice, while you will likely have more direct responsibility and concern for the bottom line, you also have more abilty to control your life and to change things in the practice to your liking. Hospitals are generally poorly run sinkholes of bureaucratic inefficiency because there are so many rules, regulations, and competing departmental or bureaucratic interests. You basically have to conform to the hospital's way of doing things and trying to change anything can be a long, painful process. Much easier to get things done quickly and efficiently in a private practice.
 
I didn't mean to suggest that academic neurology is some sort of magical fairy land where you can do whatever you want regardless of cost.

However, with a K23 or an R01, you buy yourself the right to be left alone to do your research, get 3T MRI-PET scans, etc. Conversely, when your department chair is paying most or all of your salary, then your primary purpose is making money and supporting the patient population subserved by the medical center. Want more independence? Want fewer clinic days? Get funded.

When I'm dropping in a subclavian line during normal hours, I'll ask the attending if he wants to observe the procedure so he can bill for it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. We don't ignore billing opportunities, but it's not like we're jumping at every opportunity to generate a billing unit. Compare that to long meetings trying to figure out how to squeeze a few more dollars out of each IVIG infusion. No thanks.
 
Few comments:

It is a lot of fun to be in academic neurology. If you don't feel like that, then go into private practice, administration, industry or other ventures.

A classic quote from one administrator is "Unfunded research is just a hobby". You might get at the start a salary in the lower range if you will be spending time unfunded doing research for a couple of years. If by the end of the second year, it does not look like you are going to make it, you might be transitioned into a clinical position, with a different set of expectations.

I essentially agree with the last two comments. Some days I am feel closer to typhoon's position, others very much as neurologist described. Circumstances vary. This is my 14th year as faculty member. I have 30% federal research funding, 20% for education/administration (fellowship director / satellite NDC lab director), the other 50% is clinical. I see the glass of water and the arguments from both sides. The practice of medicine is filled with red tape. Focus upon the things that you can change to improve patient care. Then, you saved yourself from the grief of practicing in imperfect health systems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I would actually argue that at least in private practice, while you will likely have more direct responsibility and concern for the bottom line, you also have more abilty to control your life and to change things in the practice to your liking. Hospitals are generally poorly run sinkholes of bureaucratic inefficiency because there are so many rules, regulations, and competing departmental or bureaucratic interests. You basically have to conform to the hospital's way of doing things and trying to change anything can be a long, painful process. Much easier to get things done quickly and efficiently in a private practice.

Some thoughts from the private practice side here...

I agree with neurologist's post about having both the responsibility for the bottom line and the control to go along with it in a private practice.

You are on one hand a physician and on the other a small business person. How much you make is dependent on how well you do both at the same time.

There is a wide range of how much folks in practice make; from something comparable to an academic salary to amounts that you would find hard to believe. In general, a person with a busy practice in a group that offers some economies of scale with respect to diagnostic equipment and staff would have total compensation that would compare favorably with the numbers cited above for senior academics.
 
How amusing - it takes a thread on $$$ to get all the attending-levels to come out of the woodwork and post on one thread!

:laugh:
 
How amusing - it takes a thread on $$$ to get all the attending-levels to come out of the woodwork and post on one thread!

:laugh:

Well, aside from having passed some dumb-ass board exams, that's what separates us from the students and residents.

You can (and probably should) ignore the financial stuff. We can't, so we're probably in a better position to talk about it. ;)
 
Well, aside from having passed some dumb-ass board exams, that's what separates us from the students and residents.

You can (and probably should) ignore the financial stuff. We can't, so we're probably in a better position to talk about it. ;)

I did not know you were an attending. Its good to know...unless of course you're making things up ;)

In any case, I like neurology. I dont like neurosurgery-worked under one for a year. He does research. Why he does research I dont know seeing as he's never in the lab and only shows up for lab meetings. In any case, I have always been fascinated by neurological research. I feel like its the next frontier. I just dont want to give up on a good income because of this passion. For example, if I do go into say surgery I can make 300k easily compared to say the 70-100 k that people are throwing around for assistant faculty members.

Also, I'm assuming that unless I work at a top tier research institute it would be difficult to do good research? Do you agree/disagree? Do you think doing your residency at a top program is critical to be a succesful neurology researcher? How about basic science(non clinical) neuroscience research as a neurologist? Do you need a PhD for that or can you say work on alzheimers and memory research and practice as a neurologist?
 
Also, I'm assuming that unless I work at a top tier research institute it would be difficult to do good research? Do you agree/disagree?

I don't have an answer to this for neurology specifically. But I think you can do some research on NIH funding $/faculty member. Sure Harvard and Hopkins have billions in NIH funding but they also have thousands of faculty members. You can definitely have highly productive research outside of top 10 research institutions and the funding/faculty is a good way to figure that out. I'm not sure if the NIH numbers are published for specific departments though.
 
Whats the average salary of Clinical neurophysiologist doing EMG/NCV studies?? or EEG??
 
Since we are talking about "potential" earnings, I would have to say that a neurologist could potentially earn any amount he or she wanted to. There are so many options: work more, work less. This could drastically change ones earnings.

Or, to expand your paradigm, a neurologist could study procedures and develop a new resource saving technology or method and patent or license it to leverage much greater earnings. If you look at residual income potentials the scope is endless. Write a best-selling book. Become a speaker. Market ideas or products. Not sure how else to answer this.

I always laugh at these types of questions. People look at being a doctor like it's getting a job at mcdonalds. They want to see a table of reimbursements that they can get good feelings about before they sign the dotted line on to a specialty. That doesn't happen until AFTER residency, and things change so rapidly in medicine it is difficult to predict exactly what the conditions will be like in a few years. Potential earnings of doctors can be as high as one sets for themselves if enough ingenuity and faith are applied. Be willing to use your expertise to develop something that many people can benefit from and develop a way to distribute it. This is the best way to increase earning potential. A few hundred thousand really isn't that much of a difference when you look at the potential earnings of tens of millions that are out there to be had by doing one of the above. Medicine necessarily has a very large business component to it. Business is the skeleton of the medical system in our society (and at least one-fifth of the most massive economy on earth). I believe that being a physician situates you better than anyone else to innovate the business as well as the art & science of medicine.

Imagine if Bill Gates based his decision to start a software company by looking at the earnings of software executives in the late 1970's... Don't limit yourself by some reported earnings which are often under-reported anyways now that physicians are under the microscope and it is not PC to be a high earning physician.
 
Since we are talking about "potential" earnings, I would have to say that a neurologist could potentially earn any amount he or she wanted to. There are so many options: work more, work less. This could drastically change ones earnings.

Or, to expand your paradigm, a neurologist could study procedures and develop a new resource saving technology or method and patent or license it to leverage much greater earnings. If you look at residual income potentials the scope is endless. Write a best-selling book. Become a speaker. Market ideas or products. Not sure how else to answer this.

I always laugh at these types of questions. People look at being a doctor like it's getting a job at mcdonalds. They want to see a table of reimbursements that they can get good feelings about before they sign the dotted line on to a specialty. That doesn't happen until AFTER residency, and things change so rapidly in medicine it is difficult to predict exactly what the conditions will be like in a few years. Potential earnings of doctors can be as high as one sets for themselves if enough ingenuity and faith are applied. Be willing to use your expertise to develop something that many people can benefit from and develop a way to distribute it. This is the best way to increase earning potential. A few hundred thousand really isn't that much of a difference when you look at the potential earnings of tens of millions that are out there to be had by doing one of the above. Medicine necessarily has a very large business component to it. Business is the skeleton of the medical system in our society (and at least one-fifth of the most massive economy on earth). I believe that being a physician situates you better than anyone else to innovate the business as well as the art & science of medicine.

Imagine if Bill Gates based his decision to start a software company by looking at the earnings of software executives in the late 1970's... Don't limit yourself by some reported earnings which are often under-reported anyways now that physicians are under the microscope and it is not PC to be a high earning physician.

I agree with you entirely. But, keep in mind your audience. Medicine is populated by a bunch of non-risk takers, who know very little about the world outside of medicine, and care even less. Most students I've talked to have no idea how the medical business works. These are mostly kids, who had a one track mind since undergrad and just memorized minutiae in medical school for 4 years. Then, residency is more of the same "fall in line or else" attitude that molds conformity. So, no. I'm not surprised that the vast majority of graduates simply want to sign on the dotted line and not worry about taking risks or managing the business aspect of medicine (or anything). They go around blindly asking which specialties make the most, because that type of upfront data requires no more thought on their part. They would just study some more and hope to get into whatever field is being well-reimbursed at the moment.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with their mindset. The less they know and are interested in business, the more wide open the market is for me. Medicine is the optimal career choice for entrepreneurship, because there's a relatively high barrier to entry, and your fall-back option (practicing clinical medicine) is nothing to scoff at.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I agree with you entirely. But, keep in mind your audience. Medicine is populated by a bunch of non-risk takers, who know very little about the world outside of medicine, and care even less. Most students I've talked to have no idea how the medical business works. These are mostly kids, who had a one track mind since undergrad and just memorized minutiae in medical school for 4 years. Then, residency is more of the same "fall in line or else" attitude that molds conformity. So, no. I'm not surprised that the vast majority of graduates simply want to sign on the dotted line and not worry about taking risks or managing the business aspect of medicine (or anything). They go around blindly asking which specialties make the most, because that type of upfront data requires no more thought on their part. They would just study some more and hope to get into whatever field is being well-reimbursed at the moment.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with their mindset. The less they know and are interested in business, the more wide open the market is for me. Medicine is the optimal career choice for entrepreneurship, because there's a relatively high barrier to entry, and your fall-back option (practicing clinical medicine) is nothing to scoff at.

Nice analysis. I would say neurology has a bright entrepreneurial future as well. I just cant decide on a specialty yet. So many options!
 
Nice analysis. I would say neurology has a bright entrepreneurial future as well. I just cant decide on a specialty yet. So many options!

If you're really looking at the entrepreneurial aspect of Neurology, and because a successful entrepreneur is on the cutting edge of new advances, then stroke would probably be the way to go. Bench research using modalities along with tPA should be ready for clinical trials in about 3 years, with hopeful implementation in practice in about 5-10 years. Lots of interesting research in other areas of Neurology, but will likely take longer for implementation IMHO.
 
I agree with you entirely. But, keep in mind your audience. Medicine is populated by a bunch of non-risk takers, who know very little about the world outside of medicine, and care even less. Most students I've talked to have no idea how the medical business works. These are mostly kids, who had a one track mind since undergrad and just memorized minutiae in medical school for 4 years. Then, residency is more of the same "fall in line or else" attitude that molds conformity. So, no. I'm not surprised that the vast majority of graduates simply want to sign on the dotted line and not worry about taking risks or managing the business aspect of medicine (or anything). They go around blindly asking which specialties make the most, because that type of upfront data requires no more thought on their part. They would just study some more and hope to get into whatever field is being well-reimbursed at the moment.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with their mindset. The less they know and are interested in business, the more wide open the market is for me. Medicine is the optimal career choice for entrepreneurship, because there's a relatively high barrier to entry, and your fall-back option (practicing clinical medicine) is nothing to scoff at.

Preach. The people I've met that make the most through medicine aren't doing an "I show up from x hour to y hour then go home" model, they're taking on extra stuff like you've mentioned or are handling business aspects of their practice instead of paying someone else to do it.

I'm also one of the people that believes at some point in the future reimbursements for procedures vs cognitive work in the US will level out and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, since all the research on salary done as a premed will be out the window.
 
The graphical data in this thread: 2011 Neurology compensation/salary (how much do neurologist earn?) looks comparable to what I saw in a year's worth of starting job interviews. Key word: starting.

If you are a partner in private practice, or if you are in a procedure-heavy specialty, or if you are talking to groups with a more dire need (re: you have more leverage in negotiating) then the rules change.

Do this for love of subject matter and you might be surprised at what comes across your bow.
 
Last edited:
I agree with you entirely. But, keep in mind your audience. Medicine is populated by a bunch of non-risk takers, who know very little about the world outside of medicine, and care even less. Most students I've talked to have no idea how the medical business works. These are mostly kids, who had a one track mind since undergrad and just memorized minutiae in medical school for 4 years. Then, residency is more of the same "fall in line or else" attitude that molds conformity. So, no. I'm not surprised that the vast majority of graduates simply want to sign on the dotted line and not worry about taking risks or managing the business aspect of medicine (or anything). They go around blindly asking which specialties make the most, because that type of upfront data requires no more thought on their part. They would just study some more and hope to get into whatever field is being well-reimbursed at the moment.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with their mindset. The less they know and are interested in business, the more wide open the market is for me. Medicine is the optimal career choice for entrepreneurship, because there's a relatively high barrier to entry, and your fall-back option (practicing clinical medicine) is nothing to scoff at.

Good post. Makes me want to take some more business classes.
 
Every sub-board on this forum, for every single specialty, has at least one of the following threads:

"So how much money yah make?"
"If I do this, but not that, can I make more money?"

At the end of the day, go into a specialty that you enjoy practicing. If you do neurology and you are drawn to a particular subspecialty, then pursue it as well. If your decision making abilities to say do a neurointervention fellowship (always threads asking how much they make) versus say a movement disorders fellowship relies upon a bunch of guys on a forum telling you that one makes more money than the other, well, this is the wrong profession to be in.

I agree with Neurologist, MGMA is the gold standard and often contracts for guaranteed salaries will be based upon this.

Nobody will starve as a neurologist. We have a national shortage!! I can tell you that where I located, the patients are beating down my damn door! Now, could I make more money if I did an epilepsy fellowship and could just bill every seizure-like patient for video monitoring? Probably! But I surely am not going to starve without this ability either.
 
I agree with you entirely. But, keep in mind your audience. Medicine is populated by a bunch of non-risk takers, who know very little about the world outside of medicine, and care even less. Most students I've talked to have no idea how the medical business works. These are mostly kids, who had a one track mind since undergrad and just memorized minutiae in medical school for 4 years. Then, residency is more of the same "fall in line or else" attitude that molds conformity. So, no. I'm not surprised that the vast majority of graduates simply want to sign on the dotted line and not worry about taking risks or managing the business aspect of medicine (or anything). They go around blindly asking which specialties make the most, because that type of upfront data requires no more thought on their part. They would just study some more and hope to get into whatever field is being well-reimbursed at the moment.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with their mindset. The less they know and are interested in business, the more wide open the market is for me. Medicine is the optimal career choice for entrepreneurship, because there's a relatively high barrier to entry, and your fall-back option (practicing clinical medicine) is nothing to scoff at.

Unfortunately, unless you were a business major in college, or pursued and MBA on the side, many docs just don't receive the proper education. This is something I just had to learn on my own and required a learing curve, but I sort of enjoyed it. Some don't enjoy it and want nothing to do with it. Myself, I was sort of your non-traditional medical student. I was not a pre-med in college and was never really part of that "club" As for your commentary, well, I might catch some flack for this, but it never ceases to amaze me how many "smart dumb" people there are in medicine. I smile at every missed diagnosis or mismanaged patient that I see by individuals who could easily score over 90% on a medical examination. I never could figure that out?
 
I agree with you entirely. But, keep in mind your audience. Medicine is populated by a bunch of non-risk takers, who know very little about the world outside of medicine, and care even less. Most students I've talked to have no idea how the medical business works. These are mostly kids, who had a one track mind since undergrad and just memorized minutiae in medical school for 4 years. Then, residency is more of the same "fall in line or else" attitude that molds conformity. So, no. I'm not surprised that the vast majority of graduates simply want to sign on the dotted line and not worry about taking risks or managing the business aspect of medicine (or anything). They go around blindly asking which specialties make the most, because that type of upfront data requires no more thought on their part. They would just study some more and hope to get into whatever field is being well-reimbursed at the moment.

I mean, I'm perfectly fine with their mindset. The less they know and are interested in business, the more wide open the market is for me. Medicine is the optimal career choice for entrepreneurship, because there's a relatively high barrier to entry, and your fall-back option (practicing clinical medicine) is nothing to scoff at.

Totally agree. Well said.
 
Questions for recent grads.

1) What kind of starting incomes were you offered?
2) Out of all the income/salary surveys (MGMA, medscape, salary.com, etc...), which one(s) do you think is the most accurate?
 
Questions for recent grads.

1) What kind of starting incomes were you offered?
2) Out of all the income/salary surveys (MGMA, medscape, salary.com, etc...), which one(s) do you think is the most accurate?

As stated above, I agree that the MGMA surveys offer the closest relative accuracy for salaries and is broken down nicely by percentiles.

Starting salary has been heavily discussed on this forum and is dependent upon multiple factors. I would broadly answer "between $180 and 350."

Note that with partner or shareholder status this number can climb. Also note the current political climate regarding health care, which may have a lasting salary impact resulting in deductions ranging from 20% to the majority of your practice earnings.
 
As stated above, I agree that the MGMA surveys offer the closest relative accuracy for salaries and is broken down nicely by percentiles.

Starting salary has been heavily discussed on this forum and is dependent upon multiple factors. I would broadly answer "between $180 and 350."

Note that with partner or shareholder status this number can climb. Also note the current political climate regarding health care, which may have a lasting salary impact resulting in deductions ranging from 20% to the majority of your practice earnings.

Starting income of 300K+? I've only heard of one such instance, and that graduating resident went to the middle of no where. For everyone else that wants to live with civilization (metropolitan or suburban), what range is realistic? I've read it's mostly in the mid-upper 100K range, but I want to confirm these values with people that actually applied for jobs in the recent years. I'll be graduating med school with 200K+ loan, so money is an important factor.

Thanks guys
 
Starting salary offers on my recent interview trail (note all in fairly large cities):
Private neurohospitalist positions: 300-350k
Academic neurohospitalist positions: 140-150k
 
Starting income of 300K+? I've only heard of one such instance, and that graduating resident went to the middle of no where. For everyone else that wants to live with civilization (metropolitan or suburban), what range is realistic? I've read it's mostly in the mid-upper 100K range, but I want to confirm these values with people that actually applied for jobs in the recent years. I'll be graduating med school with 200K+ loan, so money is an important factor.

Thanks guys


One resident on here had a neurohospitalist offer with a base of $315k + incentives working 10hr shifts, 7 on and 7 off. Sounds like a sweet gig if you ask me.
 
One resident on here had a neurohospitalist offer with a base of $315k + incentives working 10hr shifts, 7 on and 7 off. Sounds like a sweet gig if you ask me.

I always wondered about taking night calls for those who do 7 on/off. Are these calls assigned on the off days, because I think it would be a little hard to take cover night calls after a 12-hr shift, especially if one has another 12-hr shift the next day.

Also, are neurohospitalists fellowship trained? or are they general neurologists?

Thank you,
 
There are no work hour restrictions for attendings. So you cover when you cover. I cover nights when I am on both days surrounding it. In fact, ICU coverage is 24/7, and sometimes you work multiple days in a row. You're getting paid, c'est la vie.

10 hours a day 7 days a week is truly a sweet gig. Many people I know get paid half that to work far more. But that's academics for you.

Also, be careful about the concept of "7 off". Most places would not be pleased if that "7 off" consisted entirely of body-surfing. Off weeks can be filled with teaching requirements, administrative duties, research (if academic), or even call.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Starting salary offers on my recent interview trail (note all in fairly large cities):
Private neurohospitalist positions: 300-350k
Academic neurohospitalist positions: 140-150k

Wait until you are about the sign the contract. Those numbers are very far from actual numbers in the Private setting.
If you are planning to start neurohospitalist in a fairly large city, sure there is another at least 10 neurologists in that hospital territory who compete to get more patients from the same pool. So why they pay someone, as a fresh graduate, 300K to start his/her new job and take away their patients?
 
If you are planning to start neurohospitalist in a fairly large city, sure there is another at least 10 neurologists in that hospital territory who compete to get more patients from the same pool. So why they pay someone, as a fresh graduate, 300K to start his/her new job and take away their patients?[/QUOTE]

Is this a reason why the neurohospitalist model may not take off as well in neurology as it has for internal medicine?? What are your thoughts on the future of the neurohospitalist model in neurology?
 
Wait until you are about the sign the contract. Those numbers are very far from actual numbers in the Private setting.
If you are planning to start neurohospitalist in a fairly large city, sure there is another at least 10 neurologists in that hospital territory who compete to get more patients from the same pool. So why they pay someone, as a fresh graduate, 300K to start his/her new job and take away their patients?

Because you still get to see them as an outpatient which will still be >80% of their care for most neurology patients and you get to avoid coming in at 2am to do an admission, also all that time driving between what can sometimes be multiple hospitals is time you're not billing for.

And no, a neurohospitalist is not fellowship trained. A stroke fellowship could be helpful since that is the bulk of emergency neurologic issues that a neurologist will handle (neurosurgery handles quite a bit of the rest, give or take some based on your locak neuroscience culture). There's blood in the head/not enough blood in the head issues, status epilepticus, and some degrees of neuromuscular crisis however in places with closed ICUs once the patient is intubated you're consulting and medicine is primary.
 
So why they pay someone, as a fresh graduate, 300K to start his/her new job and take away their patients?

Think about it. Because outpatient neurology pays better and doesn't involve taking inpatient call. People will pay you a premium to do this service for a practice so *they* don't have to go in at 2AM and deal with the ED phone calls throughout their office day.
 
Top