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Pre-med advisor said I should consider Caribbean
Started by the_fella
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If you can't do MD or DO, you should look into PA, nurse practitioner, or podiatry: all of these health fields offer the potential for big $ and are much better options than Carribbean medical schools.
Consider it if you really want to be a doctor and aren't competitive anywhere in the U.S.
It's inadvisable. And therefore something your adviser should not have advised on. Go DO, and if you can't, consider PA before you consider Carrib.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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If most so-called advisors actually knew what it took to get into med school, they'd be physicians and not premed advisors.
Are you a multiple reapplicant? If not, he's so wrong that I'd recommend dumping him and finding a new advisor. Seriously, going to the Caribbean is terrible advice for the vast majority of applicants. Unless you've gone through a minimum of two U.S. app cycles, including DO schools, and you are a stellar standardized test taker, you have no business even considering offshore schools. Attending any of them is going to make your path to becoming a licensed US physician much harder than will attending any accredited US school.
Dentistry as well.
Competition for dental schools is pretty fierce, as I'm given to understand by my dental friends.
Is it? I never would have thought.
"If most so-called teachers actually knew what it took to have a real career, they'd be in that career."
Sorry Q, that logic is pretty ridiculous. I agree with the rest of your post, i.e. there are lots of people that don't know much at their respective job. You don't have to put them down for it.
Based upon some of the posts I've seen here in SDN, my opinion of most pre-med advisors is pretty jaded.
OP, what's your GPA? MCAT?
OP, what's your GPA? MCAT?
Sure, and I've had some pretty crummy teachers, but they're not all of them, no?
Might be just a nice way of saying odds of getting a US spot from your starting point are lousy. Doesn't mean he's right or even that he considers offshore a "good" option. But it might be a non-zero percent chance if your credentials are such that that might be an improvement. Without giving us more detail on your stats it's hard to comment. Just know the Caribbean is a bad option and if that's your best shot you might want to seriously entertain other healthcare/career choices.
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Basically, it's doable for me, but will be very difficult. I got a 21 on the MCAT. I'm not sure what my sGPA is b/c every source I've seen calculates it differently. He told me I need to get my MCAT score up, get some shadowing and volunteering experience, and then I'll probably have a good shot at some DO schools in the south or Appalachia, as they tend to have lower GPA and MCAT requirements. He specifically mentioned Pikeville and a few others. He said I basically have slightly less than a year to do what most people take three years to do.
This is horrible advice, if what he means is that you have only a year, or that one year is enough.
You need to spend multiple years solving your academic problems before applying to med school. A 21 on the MCAT means you are just not ready for med school. Don't go to a med school that will let you in at this point.
Search SDN for "low GPA" and spend many many hours studying your story, as told by others who have been in exactly your shoes and recovered. I'm assuming you have low grades to go with that 21, but strategies for building up academics are the same.
Best of luck to you.
I think a big part of the reason why I got a 21 was b/c I started studying way too late. I was finishing up my MA and took a bit longer doing that than I thought I would, giving me less time to study than I had originally anticipated. I'll admit, I also 3/4 assed (which is slightly more than half assing) the preparation. And I think he was referring specifically to I have that time frame to do this stuff if I want to apply in the upcoming application cycle. If I don't make it in time, that's okay. I can always finish it up and apply in the next cycle.
It is good that you are open to the possibility of taking an extra year to make everything work out. I know, personally, how much it hurts to add an extra year onto your timeline, so may I humbly suggest that you go ahead and make that your plan. Applying to a cycle when you are not really ready is just a recipe for a lot of unnecessary heartache and wasted time and money. If you instead spent that extra year with sustained effort and unwavering focus on getting your stats up and your application in perfect order, you can roll into the next cycle like a freaking boss. You will have a better app, better choices of schools, more likelihood of being accepted to the schools you like best, and generally a lot less stress.
I wish that someone had given me this advice, and that I wouldn't have been too pig-stubborn to take it. I wasted a lot of money and worry putting in applications (late) that weren't going to go anywhere, and then I still had to put that extra year in to get everything done right. I think the reason so many people have to reapply is that they try too soon. If you just want to experience the horrors of the application process as some kind of painful dress rehearsal, go ahead you weirdo masochist. But if your goal is to get into medical school and become a physician, show some restraint and good judgement and don't apply until you are really ready to be taken seriously.
Most premed advisors are useless... I don't know why students keep taking advice from them. There is no better premed advisor than SDN.
Retake classes that you had C+ or lower so you can take advantage of DO grade replacement policy... Ideally, you want you s/cGPA to be 3.3+, then bring up that MCAT score to 25+. If you do that, you will have a decent shot at low tier DO assuming your ECs and LOR are average. Don't go to the caribbean if you want to become a physician... Podiatry can be a good choice if you are ok with the surgical aspect of it...
Well the MCAT scoring system is changing. I'm hoping for a score of 510, which is in the 89th percentile. 500 is the 50th percentile (and the top of AAMC's bell curve). Retaking those classes is an issue of money. My university charges $459/credit hour for part-time students. I believe one of the courses I need to retake is 3 credit hours and the other is 4. I honestly have no interest whatsoever in podiatry. I'm really hoping to apply to a lower tier DO school. I'm going to try to start volunteering at my local boys and girls' club, helping the kiddies with homework and/or tutoring.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Couldn't disagree more regarding your assertion that my logic is ridiculous. I don't mean to suggest that teaching or advising isn't a learned skill like any other; it is. We all have had the painful experience of being "taught" by people who know a lot about their field of expertise while knowing nothing about how to teach it to others. But thinking you can teach someone else how to do something if you've never done it yourself is equally ludicrous. The best teachers have both practical and theoretical experience. So yeah, I say, if you want to know how to get into med school, you need to talk to someone who's actually gotten into med school, or who at least has adcom experience with vetting and selecting candidates. Not someone who just reads about it on a list serve.
OP, you definitely need to retake that MCAT. Who cares if it's the new one? It's not like you have an amazing good score on the old test; you have nothing to lose by retaking. Also, given that you are not a stellar test taker, going to the Caribbean is definitely a bad plan in your case. The minority of Carib grads who make it back Stateside are generally the ones who manage to smoke the boards, and most of those are people who are good at taking standardized tests with minimal school support. You will have a much better chance of success coming from an American school that can give you whatever academic support you may need to pass your Steps on the first try. My advice is to retake and apply to DO schools as you are already planning.
Fair enough
Out of sheer curiosity, do you know what happens to these people that go the caribbean route and don't get a U.S. residency?
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Good question. You don't read much about these folks in the glossy brochures, do you? Perhaps those of you who are considering the Caribbean route would do well to ask this question of their recruiters.
I've been interrogating the IMG residents at my school to see how reality matches the SDN consensus on Carib outcomes. Here's my understanding of what happens to a class at a "good" Carib school:
"scramble or match later" means a residency in an undesirable location/specialty, or a job outside medicine. Folks who don't do well in the match are not exactly open & celebratory about it, and there are lots of folks in this situation, so their classmates don't hear exactly what happens. Carib schools are absolutely not going to tell you whether these are the real numbers; Carib schools are only going to tell you about their successful grads. Even if my numbers are off by half (which they aren't), this should scare you badly.
tl;dr: US MD schools graduate about 95% of matriculants; nearly all get residencies. US DO schools are about the same, a little lower. US IMGs at Carib schools fail out at a 50% rate and those remaining struggle to match. US residency spots are not increasing as US MD and US DO school enrollments increase dramatically.
"scramble or match later" means a residency in an undesirable location/specialty, or a job outside medicine. Folks who don't do well in the match are not exactly open & celebratory about it, and there are lots of folks in this situation, so their classmates don't hear exactly what happens. Carib schools are absolutely not going to tell you whether these are the real numbers; Carib schools are only going to tell you about their successful grads. Even if my numbers are off by half (which they aren't), this should scare you badly.
tl;dr: US MD schools graduate about 95% of matriculants; nearly all get residencies. US DO schools are about the same, a little lower. US IMGs at Carib schools fail out at a 50% rate and those remaining struggle to match. US residency spots are not increasing as US MD and US DO school enrollments increase dramatically.
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I've been interrogating the IMG residents at my school to see how reality matches the SDN consensus on Carib outcomes. Here's my understanding of what happens to a class at a "good" Carib school:
"scramble or match later" means a residency in an undesirable location/specialty, or a job outside medicine. Folks who don't do well in the match are not exactly open & celebratory about it, and there are lots of folks in this situation, so their classmates don't hear exactly what happens. Carib schools are absolutely not going to tell you whether these are the real numbers; Carib schools are only going to tell you about their successful grads. Even if my numbers are off by half (which they aren't), this should scare you badly.
tl;dr: US MD schools graduate about 95% of matriculants; nearly all get residencies. US DO schools are about the same, a little lower. US IMGs at Carib schools fail out at a 50% rate and those remaining struggle to match. US residency spots are not increasing as US MD and US DO school enrollments increase dramatically.
😱
That's depressing. I really hope the couple of friends I have in Carib schools make it. They're very hard workers and genuinely good people.
Yes, I have a friend who has been trying to get into dental school for the past 6 years.
Living with their parents the rest of their life because bankruptcy does not forgive your students loans.
That's mostly true, but there are exceptions.
Seriously? You had to come up with an argument?
Huh, it may be possible they get residency in another foreign country and go from there? I've met a "caribbean doc" or two. They just don't seem to talk about it and change the subject.
I've found some frightening stats about these schools and the good one seem to kill off students.
Ex: Ross University
http://www.goingtomedschool.com/2013/03/24/why-i-wont-apply-to-caribbean-medical-schools/
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Many of them end up with six figure loans and no degree, no residency (or both), and no prospect of paying back those loans. And you can't get rid of student loans even by going bankrupt. So while the Carib schools may be a reasonable Hail Mary option for a select group of students, most would do well to steer very clear.
Ironically, the person whose blog link you posted is one of the select few who might do ok in the Caribbean: good MCAT and very low GPA that will make getting admitted to a U.S. school difficult without doing massive GPA repair.
Ironically, the person whose blog link you posted is one of the select few who might do ok in the Caribbean: good MCAT and very low GPA that will make getting admitted to a U.S. school difficult without doing massive GPA repair.
My back-of-the-envelope estimate graph (below) has now been supported in conversations with Ross, SGU, SABA and AUC grads doing residencies at my school.
400 is an average starting class size - sometimes less, sometimes more.
A Ross grad I talked to today, who needed 2 cycles to match, said "about 1/3 get off the island with a residency". And "they really need to do something with all these Carib grads who don't match" - he was surprised when I told him Missouri grants PA-level privileges to MD grads before residency. He got over his mixed feelings about doing Carib about 18 months into residency, and described having to do multiple match cycles as "completely demoralizing and excruciating". Note he's a success story.
400 is an average starting class size - sometimes less, sometimes more.
A Ross grad I talked to today, who needed 2 cycles to match, said "about 1/3 get off the island with a residency". And "they really need to do something with all these Carib grads who don't match" - he was surprised when I told him Missouri grants PA-level privileges to MD grads before residency. He got over his mixed feelings about doing Carib about 18 months into residency, and described having to do multiple match cycles as "completely demoralizing and excruciating". Note he's a success story.
