Pre Medical Students and cheating/unfair advantages

[mmmcdowe]

I disagree, just because this nebulous "output to resource ratio" is higher doesn't translate to more success. If someone cheats and gets a 50% I think it's pretty clear they aren't successful no matter how little time they put in.

True, which is why monkeys who don't cheat well (meaning in this case get a good grade vis cheating) "die off". They either get desperate and get caught, shape up, become better cheaters, or flunk out.

The whole output to resource ratio was just to show how a cheating monkey who gets the same grade is more successful, its not some psych theory or anything. Essentially, if someone studies for five hours and gets an A on, and someone who doesn't study at all and cheats gets an A, then the cheater has those 5 hours back, which he or she can do whatever they want.

Eventually, however, most cheating monkeys get caught, or only cheat a little here and there. Big cheaters reach a limit, especially when we are talking about testing, can only cheat for so long before they reach their limit or they move on to practical applications. The money equivalent would be to suppose that you have a group of monkeys, who climb a tree and pass down fruit so that the first monkey to eat fruit is the one at the very in. If the cheating monkey climbs up so he is second in line and eats as much as he wants before passing the food down, that's good for a while. Eventually, however, he'll get so fat that he can't climb up anymore, and he'll have to be the last one in line. He can't cheat if he is at the end.

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[Loon]

Gentlemen, WE are monkeys.

No. We are apes. Don't make me fling poo at you.

 

[gujuDoc]

Wow this thread got ugly pretty quickly but rather interesting arguments.

If you want to report cheating, do it anonymously if you don't want people to know it was you who reported it. Someone did that last year against some guys in our class and they changed the seating around so no one could cheat off each other. haha.

A friend fo mine has a trick to prevent people cheating off of him on multiple choice exams. he purposely cirlces a different answer from the one he is going to actually bubble.

One time this guy tried to cheat off the friend described above and he started to notice and told the professor but the prof. didn't believe him. So he purposely circled one answer above each correct answer the rest of the test and bubbled the right answer on his answer sheet. Then he told the professor to compare. Sure enough the cheater failed and my friend got an A and the professor believed him. It was kinda funny.

 

[gujuDoc]

Does anyone else feel that the time it takes to figure out cheating is better spent studying?

 

[koojo]

I love the monkey analogy! Well put

 

[stooges287]

Does anyone else feel that the time it takes to figure out cheating is better spent studying?

In your previously cited friends case, I personally don't think it was worth the effort. I mean, I'd be pretty angry if I had to interrupt my own test taking time to circle wrong answers just to show up a cheater. That being said, I think the time it takes to figure out cheating is pretty negligible. If you see someone blatantly looking at someone else's exam repeatedly (which to me is a pretty good indication of cheating) or if you see them looking at a cheat sheet during an exam, it doesn't take more than 5 mins to explain this to a professor.

 

[chessknt]

Natural selection only selects for a trait if more offspring are produced, which is why your analogy fails. Successful people dont have abnormally large numbers of offspring compared to nonsuccessful people due to the advent of birth control.

 

[gujuDoc]

In your previously cited friends case, I personally don't think it was worth the effort. I mean, I'd be pretty angry if I had to interrupt my own test taking time to circle wrong answers just to show up a cheater. That being said, I think the time it takes to figure out cheating is pretty negligible. If you see someone blatantly looking at someone else's exam repeatedly (which to me is a pretty good indication of cheating) or if you see them looking at a cheat sheet during an exam, it doesn't take more than 5 mins to explain this to a professor.

The guy didn't care. He got an A. He was a nontrad who was very gunnerish. lol but a good guy and helpful when he wanted to be.

The guy he ousted got an F. haha

 

[DrYoda]

Does anyone else feel that the time it takes to figure out cheating is better spent studying?

Generally, most classes don' trequire much effort in the first place.

A friend fo mine has a trick to prevent people cheating off of him on multiple choice exams. he purposely cirlces a different answer from the one he is going to actually bubble.

One time this guy tried to cheat off the friend described above and he started to notice and told the professor but the prof. didn't believe him. So he purposely circled one answer above each correct answer the rest of the test and bubbled the right answer on his answer sheet. Then he told the professor to compare. Sure enough the cheater failed and my friend got an A and the professor believed him. It was kinda funny.

Well I would say to much effort, but perhaps natural selection is at work here as well. Clearly the cheating center of the cheater's brain is poorly developed since he is letting his destiny be determined by his neighbor. Perhaps this was for the greater good.

The cheating monkey saves time, which is a resource. Therefor the output to resource ratio is higher, and he is more successful.

I love it.

 

[gujuDoc]

Well I would say to much effort, but perhaps natural selection is at work here as well. Clearly the cheating center of the cheater's brain is poorly developed since he is letting his destiny be determined by his neighbor. Perhaps this was for the greater good.

 

[chessknt]

Well I would say to much effort, but perhaps natural selection is at work here as well. Clearly the cheating center of the cheater's brain is poorly developed since he is letting his destiny be determined by his neighbor. Perhaps this was for the greater good.

How is this NS? He could easily go out and father a dozen children and live off medicaid and welfare. Are you planning to have that many? I am going to guess no, therefore he would be more successful than you.

 

[DrYoda]

How is this NS?

ssshhhh... its a joke, because the manner of cheating was especially stupid.

Are you planning to have that many

I live to spread my seed.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Natural selection only selects for a trait if more offspring are produced, which is why your analogy fails. Successful people dont have abnormally large numbers of offspring compared to nonsuccessful people due to the advent of birth control.

My monkey arms are tiring, so I'm going to stop flinging poo with you, you waste my monkey energy. Suffice it to say that you are thinking that NS is a one generation thing, and its not. If I have 10 unfit kids and Bob has 3 fit kids, and in 200,000 years in the future Bob's progeny are the only one's who can survive, then NS favored Bob even though my progeny numbered in the trillions and Bob's numbered in the thousands. Furthermore, watch Idiocracy and try to understand the underlying meaning to it. The human race is still being selected. In a society where even those who are unfit reproduce, the overall fitness of our species continually declines. We are able to surivive this at the moment, because conditions favor sustained, uncontested growth. However, should conditions fall apart (such as us running out of food, or energy), the weakest will be the first to go. Should the human race become so unselective and such a weak genome (such as in Idiocracy), the potential for complete extinction exists. It's been fun, but I was bored at 3 in the morning and talking about Monkeys was something to do.

 

[Loon]

Natural selection only selects for a trait if more offspring are produced, which is why your analogy fails. Successful people dont have abnormally large numbers of offspring compared to nonsuccessful people due to the advent of birth control.

This is not the case. There are other issues to be considered, including viability of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them survive more than a day past birth) and reproductive success of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them have offspring).

Also, you're conflating social concepts of success with the biological concept of reproductive success. It's very easy to say that a male that sires no offspring is not reproductively successful, but the Pope is pretty clearly successful by any social definition.

Finally, selection doesn't act at just the level of a single generation, though it can act at that level. A very small selective advantage for a given allele can cause it to fix in a population in just a few generations. A minuscule advantage might take much longer or might not fix at all, particularly if it's only an advantage sometimes or if there are other alleles that offer advantages.

 

[arrugula2]

As a "reformed" cheater I think that you shouldn't worry about those people, except maybe to pity them. It really is only a matter of time before they get caught (even the smooth ones will slip up), and the farther along they are in life the greater consequences they will face. I was lucky enough to be caught in high school, before it was too big of a deal, and since then I haven't cheated and my grades have gone way up.

Also, my parents went to top ten med schools and told me that the schools had amazing tolerance and resources for people who couldn't pass classes or pay for their educations. When people got caught cheating, though, they got tossed right out without a warning or a second thought. Maybe it feels like your grades are hurting in the short term, but their lives will be hurting long term.

 

[gujuDoc]

As a "reformed" cheater I think that you shouldn't worry about those people, except maybe to pity them. It really is only a matter of time before they get caught (even the smooth ones will slip up), and the farther along they are in life the greater consequences they will face. I was lucky enough to be caught in high school, before it was too big of a deal, and since then I haven't cheated and my grades have gone way up.

Also, my parents went to top ten med schools and told me that the schools had amazing tolerance and resources for people who couldn't pass classes or pay for their educations. When people got caught cheating, though, they got tossed right out without a warning or a second thought. Maybe it feels like your grades are hurting in the short term, but their lives will be hurting long term.

I agree.

 

[mmmcdowe]

This is not the case. There are other issues to be considered, including viability of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them survive more than a day past birth) and reproductive success of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them have offspring).

Also, you're conflating social concepts of success with the biological concept of reproductive success. It's very easy to say that a male that sires no offspring is not reproductively successful, but the Pope is pretty clearly successful by any social definition.

Finally, selection doesn't act at just the level of a single generation, though it can act at that level. A very small selective advantage for a given allele can cause it to fix in a population in just a few generations. A minuscule advantage might take much longer or might not fix at all, particularly if it's only an advantage sometimes or if there are other alleles that offer advantages.

 

[chessknt]

This is not the case. There are other issues to be considered, including viability of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them survive more than a day past birth) and reproductive success of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them have offspring).

Also, you're conflating social concepts of success with the biological concept of reproductive success. It's very easy to say that a male that sires no offspring is not reproductively successful, but the Pope is pretty clearly successful by any social definition.

Finally, selection doesn't act at just the level of a single generation, though it can act at that level. A very small selective advantage for a given allele can cause it to fix in a population in just a few generations. A minuscule advantage might take much longer or might not fix at all, particularly if it's only an advantage sometimes or if there are other alleles that offer advantages.

 

[Loon]

this is not the case. There are other issues to be considered, including viability of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them survive more than a day past birth) and reproductive success of offspring (no good having 50 offspring if none of them have offspring).

Also, you're conflating social concepts of success with the biological concept of reproductive success. It's very easy to say that a male that sires no offspring is not reproductively successful, but the pope is pretty clearly successful by any social definition.

Finally, selection doesn't act at just the level of a single generation, though it can act at that level. A very small selective advantage for a given allele can cause it to fix in a population in just a few generations. A minuscule advantage might take much longer or might not fix at all, particularly if it's only an advantage sometimes or if there are other alleles that offer advantages.

 

[jumpingjax]

Two Words: M- Cat.

Let the bastards cheat all they want. Their 17 on the MCAT isn't going to get them anywhere. (Unless they cheated on the MCAT, but I don't think that's really possible)

And if they make it through the MCAT, then they'll cheat their way through med school. And then they'll suck it up on their Boards.

You see, you win eventually anyway. So, keep your chin up. And bust them out with the teacher if you want too. That would just be fun.

Right on.

A bunch of people cheated in undergrad premed classes. Sorry to be stereotypical, but they were mostly the frat boys and sorority gals. These kids were serious about cheating. Their houses had archives of old tests, they had TA's who were alumni working the inside, and devised outlandish schemes to cheat in class. It was hilarious and entertaining to hear their bragging at parties.

Side note - the business kids were the worse. One joker somehow got every exam to the finance and business law tests the week before the tests - it's unbelievable.

Anyway, I never let it get to me b/c...

The MCAT destroyed them.

It was hilarious seeing all of these d-bags with 3.5+ GPA's getting 16's and 17's on the MCAT!!

Some ended up squirming into DO school, some went into dentistry, and a fair amount switched into business/finance. And the best - most of the chicks became drug reps. This one sorority princess used to tell everyone she hid bio notes in her bra b/c she would cry sexual harassment if any professor looked there. I saw her on my fp rotation 5 yrs later wheeling in Panera to go- classic!, kissing my 90 y/o attendings a s s.

BTW, I never called anyone out on cheating, but if you're gonna do it, do it anonymously.

 

[Reagan2012]

Here's what my basketball coach used to tell us:

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying. If you get caught cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

 

[chessknt]

Clearly reporting people for doing something illegal and immoral is immature.

 

[gujuDoc]

There's a lot of cheating at my med school. However I don't like to taddle-tale. We're not 10 year old kids playing barbie dolls. It's not a very smart idea to alieniate your peers because they will make your school life miserable.

In fact, it's a well-known fact that there's an exam piracy mafia in my university. If you're buddies with a cheater, you get unlimited access to exams. Everyone knows it and nobody cares. Heck, the dean of my school of medicine told me that he thinks the act of stealing an exam is wrong, but the act of cheating is okay with him. If the Dean says that's okay, well, I guess there's no hurt feelings in my conscience if I don't taddle tale. Plus, many of the students that cheat the most are kids of very.. influential people. You'll learn in medicine that life isn't white nor black.

I'll admit that I've studied from a pirated exam here and there that I somehow got access to. However, I only used it as a study guide and still studied the real material religiously. Some classmates have asked me about my overly saintly approach and I tell them that I don't do things to pass a course, I do it because I really want to learn. Let's say people look at me with strange looks on their faces. To each their own.

I do have a great ability to retain information of courses past. Classmates that I know have cheated always ask me "x" or "y" thing knowing I probably know the answer. I do sacrifice GPA grades by being honest, but I prefer passing med school with a good knowledge and a mostly good conscience that I got my average on my own effort.

If I ever become a teacher, I have a great plan for cheaters in this digital age. I'm going to circulate false exams and let people cheat on partial exams on purpose. Than WHAM! A badass final exam that only people that actually studied for will be capable of passing. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Judging both from your location and the fact that you say your dean okays cheating, it tells me that your school is not a US school. In the Fl. schools and most US schools you can't really get the old exams because they don't let people keep exams at my school. They'll give scantrons back but not the exams. The exams are usually kept in the edu affairs office and only allowed to look at it over there and hand it back. And usually you only get to look at the key not your specific exam paper.

Most med schools in the state have an honor code which must be respected or could get you in deep trouble. By not reporting cheating if you know and it comes about that you knew you could be in as much trouble as the cheater.

 

[Japika]

The cheating monkey saves time, which is a resource. Therefor the output to resource ratio is higher, and he is more successful.

Successful until he/she commits malpratice and drives up everybody's insurance. Cheaters don't deserve seats in medical school. I offer that to any of you who has cheated.

As for "you would rein somebodies life for ......". Nothing would make me happier than watching somebody get punished for doing something wrong.

 

[Raryn]

Successful until he/she commits malpratice and drives up everybody's insurance. Cheaters don't deserve seats in medical school. I offer that to any of you who has cheated.

As for "you would rein somebodies life for ......". Nothing would make me happier than watching somebody get punished for doing something wrong.

Pleasure at someone elses misfortune? Schadenfreude!

 

[cbrons]

wow, well I guess I'm a cheater by some of the standards presented in this thread. I got all the old physics exams going back 2 years for my professor (he does change the questions but they are usually very similar).... so what? he hands the exams back to the students after the exam to keep... i was smart enough to seek out people who took the class in the past and get their old exams from them, is that cheating or just being smart?

 

[disarticulate]

I can't help but feel like, I am getting screwed because of these other kids. Generally I wouldn’t care, but for some reason, when I see these potential competitors for medical school seats, cheating, I get really mad.

Take a step back. It may be frustrating to watch other students cheat, but these guys will not be the reason you don't get into medical school. Just learn the material, make your A, and keep on truckin'!

 

[Japika]

Pleasure at someone elses misfortune? Schadenfreude!

lol, I have never seen that word used before. I like it.

But no, not in someone else's misfortune, pleasure in watching obnoxious, ignorant, inconsiderate Americans who wouldn't know what sacrifice was if it hit them on the head, getting what they deserve.

Theres so many people here at my university alone who don't deserve what they have. Then they cheat, acting like they can do whatever they want.

This country is struggling, and people like them have no place here, except for filling up the cell block.

 

[Algophiliac]

wow, well I guess I'm a cheater by some of the standards presented in this thread. I got all the old physics exams going back 2 years for my professor (he does change the questions but they are usually very similar).... so what? he hands the exams back to the students after the exam to keep... i was smart enough to seek out people who took the class in the past and get their old exams from them, is that cheating or just being smart?

In my opinion, that's cheating. Unless every student has access to these exams, there is a lack of equity and thus you would have an unfair advantage (in this case, the advantage of having a "network" of people who can provide you with past exams). Anything that enables you to learn less of the material than would otherwise be necessary to get a particular grade on a test is cheating.

Cheating natural selection is something people do all the time, so in my opinion an argument about biological cheating has little relevance to an argument on social cheating. Is wearing glasses to improve your vision (and prevent a car crash which could potentially kill you) cheating? Is wearing makeup? Fake perfumed pheremones?

Natural selection is not just about maintaining the human race, it's about maintaining the best possible human race, the most adequate humans being those that are most suited to survival. This is clearly those who are creative thinkers, inventors...anyone capable of SELF-PROPOGATED THOUGHT. I.E. NOT CHEATING! Cheaters cannot survive without the presence of someone else to cheat off of, so why is their existence (biologically speaking here, not advocating murder) necessary?

But then again, ratting out cheaters does vanquish social interaction (and social dependence) and induce competition, whether you like it or not. Just learn the material and get a good grade without worrying about the curve! Stop wasting that monkey energy on worrying about cheaters and use it to worry about those finals!

 

[cbrons]

In my opinion, that's cheating. Unless every student has access to these exams, there is a lack of equity and thus you would have an unfair advantage (in this case, the advantage of having a "network" of people who can provide you with past exams). Anything that enables you to learn less of the material than would otherwise be necessary to get a particular grade on a test is cheating.

I disagree. I relied on my social networking skills to obtain material that gives me a competitive edge. I am not the only one who has access to these, many others do as well. There is always a lack of equity. Not everyone in the class has the same level of intelligence and thats not something we would consider unfair. Read the book Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. Life isn't fair. You do what you can to get ahead as long as you're not being dishonest or hurting anyone else in the process. The professor knows his past exams are out there, hell he's even seen me with them so its not a big secret. Good for me for using my study time wisely. I'm not hiding it. I'm not sitting in the back of lecture hall copy answers from the kid next to me. In football you prepare your defense by mimicing the offensive formation and schemes of the opposing team so you go into the game knowing what to expect. How is what I'm doing any different than that? I'm scouting the opposition, not stealing the playbook (like I said, the questions are not the same but they are similar).

 

[gujuDoc]

I disagree. I relied on my social networking skills to obtain material that gives me a competitive edge. I am not the only one who has access to these, many others do as well. There is always a lack of equity. Not everyone in the class has the same level of intelligence and thats not something we would consider unfair. Read the book Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. Life isn't fair. You do what you can to get ahead as long as you're not being dishonest or hurting anyone else in the process. The professor knows his past exams are out there, hell he's even seen me with them so its not a big secret. Good for me for using my study time wisely. I'm not hiding it. I'm not sitting in the back of lecture hall copy answers from the kid next to me. In football you prepare your defense by mimicing the offensive formation and schemes of the opposing team so you go into the game knowing what to expect. How is what I'm doing any different than that? I'm scouting the opposition, not stealing the playbook (like I said, the questions are not the same but they are similar).

Like someone said earlier. Those who are the true cheaters and who don't know thier stuff in the basic prereqs well will ultimately fail the MCAT as has happened many ties at USF. So it evens out in the end. This is why we need the MCAT despite what all the naysayer out there feel.

 

[cbrons]

Like someone said earlier. Those who are the true cheaters and who don't know thier stuff in the basic prereqs well will ultimately fail the MCAT as has happened many ties at USF. So it evens out in the end. This is why we need the MCAT despite what all the naysayer out there feel.

I still have to study hard for the exams, and I'm definitely learning physics. I will be just fine on the PS portion of MCAT.

 

[Algophiliac]

I still have to study hard for the exams, and I'm definitely learning physics. I will be just fine on the PS portion of MCAT.

In that case, you're golden. It's just a gray area for me, because I know having access to the test would make me personally a lazier studier.

Will definitely check out Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. Intelligence level is potential. And if we're going to be that socialistic about it, studying qualifies as cheating your less hard-working peers.

So all in all, I don't support cheating, but I won't be the one to rat anyone out unless actual harm to others is involved. No, I'm not talking about losing two points on your curve (gasp!). If a drunk, incompetent surgeon is scheduled to operate on a patient, however, that's a different story. Luckily said surgeons/etc. are weeded out long before they can do any real damage.

 

[Crazyday]

I wouldn't rat it out in a crap class either, but when it comes to a class like orgo, physics or some of the more difficult math courses, I'd rat it out in an instant.

 

[gujuDoc]

I still have to study hard for the exams, and I'm definitely learning physics. I will be just fine on the PS portion of MCAT.

Difference is you didn't truly cheat in the real sense. I'm talking bout the kids that did so and the kids that only relied on the cheat sheets their profs allowed but never learned the concepts right i.e. students at USF that i know. I was not referring to you. I was referrin to all those kids I knew at USF. So don't take my post personally against you.

It is a fact that a lot of people I knew who used old tests and nevr learne dmaterial and who used cheat sheets or even true pure cheating to get through college got 18s, 19s and mid 20s on the MCAT and no acceptances to MD schools in the states.

 

[mmmcdowe]

So, regardless of your opinion of cheaters, you will love this. Perhaps the most brilliant cheating strategy I've ever seen. So this guy took a soda bottle, removed the wrapper, wrote his cheating notes on it, and put the wrapper back on. He just drank enough of the bottle during the exam so that he could see the notes.

 

[135892]

wow, well I guess I'm a cheater by some of the standards presented in this thread. I got all the old physics exams going back 2 years for my professor (he does change the questions but they are usually very similar).... so what? he hands the exams back to the students after the exam to keep... i was smart enough to seek out people who took the class in the past and get their old exams from them, is that cheating or just being smart?

Yeah, I really don't understand why anyone would consider this cheating. I mean if the professor has a specific policy forbidding people from looking at old exams, then its one thing, but if he's handing back the exams, he most likely doesn't care...

 

[rom3o]

I've never witnessed any cheating during class, that's not to say it doesn't happen though.

I am usually entirely focused on my exam, once I'm done I get up and hand the professor my exam. How are you witnessing people cheating? Are your eyes wondering during the exam too?

 

[katarina90]

I disagree. I relied on my social networking skills to obtain material that gives me a competitive edge. I am not the only one who has access to these, many others do as well. There is always a lack of equity. Not everyone in the class has the same level of intelligence and thats not something we would consider unfair. Read the book Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. Life isn't fair. You do what you can to get ahead as long as you're not being dishonest or hurting anyone else in the process. The professor knows his past exams are out there, hell he's even seen me with them so its not a big secret. Good for me for using my study time wisely. I'm not hiding it. I'm not sitting in the back of lecture hall copy answers from the kid next to me. In football you prepare your defense by mimicing the offensive formation and schemes of the opposing team so you go into the game knowing what to expect. How is what I'm doing any different than that? I'm scouting the opposition, not stealing the playbook (like I said, the questions are not the same but they are similar).

Yes, I propose we appoint a premed handicapper general...just to make sure things are fair...masks and sandbags for everyone!

Haha thanks for the unexpected but well-used Vonnegut reference...: )

 

[chessknt]

I've never witnessed any cheating during class, that's not to say it doesn't happen though.

I am usually entirely focused on my exam, once I'm done I get up and hand the professor my exam. How are you witnessing people cheating? Are your eyes wondering during the exam too?

A girl sitting next to me fidgeted the entire exam so naturally when it looks like her hand is in her pants and she is moving a lot I am going to wonder wtf she is doing. Low and behold I see an equation sheet (which was strictly prohibited) on the back of her calculator, which she was intentionally leaving in her crotch area whenever a TA walked by.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Is that a reference to one of the best science fiction short stories ever written?

 

[Loon]

I've never witnessed any cheating during class, that's not to say it doesn't happen though.

I am usually entirely focused on my exam, once I'm done I get up and hand the professor my exam. How are you witnessing people cheating? Are your eyes wondering during the exam too?

Being the TA is a good way to be aware.


As a student, even if you are totally focused on the test, you might just notice that the person next to you only makes a mark after you do....

And of course, people can be caught preparing to cheat, or bragging about it (some people are really stupid).

 

[gujuDoc]

So, regardless of your opinion of cheaters, you will love this. Perhaps the most brilliant cheating strategy I've ever seen. So this guy took a soda bottle, removed the wrapper, wrote his cheating notes on it, and put the wrapper back on. He just drank enough of the bottle during the exam so that he could see the notes.

It seems like it took more work to do this then to just learn the material.