Preceptors- need some advice!

[Elle928]

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To all my fellow preceptors-
how do you deal with requests for recommendation letters and references from former "difficult" students?

I work at a competitive site, so all of my former APPE students have asked if they can list me as a reference or if I would be willing to write a letter of recommendation, and I don't mind at all. Most of our students have been great. However one student in particular was VERY difficult the first 2 weeks or so. Things like, going home halfway through the day thinking no one would notice ( and then lying about it), asking to end the rotation a few days early ( not joking), arguing about why he couldn't do certain things, etc. After the last incident, we sat him down and and had a serious talk abt what the next steps would be if this behavior continued. He straightened out after that. He's applying for fellowships soon and is asking if he can list me as a reference or if I would be willing to write a LOR.

I feel like those first couple of weeks really left a sour taste in my mouth. The ridiculous, unprofessional behavior stopped after the talk, but is it petty of me to still not want to do anything for this kid? I've never said no to being listed a reference, so I'm totally clueless on how to handle this.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I would tell him that while you appreciate the improvement he demonstrated, you don't feel like you'd do him any favors by writing LOR. It's 100% ok to say that.

 

[Wickett]

It really isn't that difficult. Just be straight forward and tell him that due to his performance and issues especially at the start of his rotation at your site, you wouldn't be able to provide a strong reference, and he would be better served finding a reference from someone else. It is a little awkward, but you just have to be honest. Doing it by email also makes it easier for you to be blunt without feeling nervous about an in person confrontation. It would be worse to damage your reputation by lying about someone or worse for the student to be honest and not give him a good reference.

I had a similar situation with a former technician that I had issues with (multiple write ups, bad attitude, being late or missing shifts, etc). She was applying for some physical therapy assistant program and she wanted me to be a reference as her most recent employer. I told her straight up I wouldn't be able to write her a good reference due to her performance at the store and she would be better off finding someone else. She got upset, but found a floater pharmacist to write one for her instead. It is what it is.

 

[owlegrad]

Yeah I have had this issue twice recently. One was a former tech who listed me as a reference without telling me and the other was a former student who applied for a job with a pharmacist who knew me and that pharmacist reached out to ask me about her.

In the first case I just gave an honest reference in an online survey. Surprisingly the survey didn’t ask anything about any of the issues I had with her and I was able to give her a shockingly good appraisal just by honestly answering the questions - the only one that was tricky was “Would you rehire this person” and I just put N/A with a note that I am not in charge of hiring so it didn’t apply. Even though I didn’t really like her I was glad I could be honest in the reference without screwing her.

For the second it was a lot harder. I just gave a bluntly honest opinion of her strengths and weaknesses. In the end she got the job so I guess I wasn’t too harsh on her or my friend didn’t care if I was.

 

[KidPharmD]

I say, "I am sure others would write a better recommendation letter than me, and I encourage you to think about who that would be."

As a side note, I am impressed by your patience. If I had found out a student left halfway through the day and then lied (as opposed to the usual "I thought I was done for the day") I would have been on the phone with a dean the next day asking about the process for failing a student.

 

[lord999]

I use @KidPharmD 's trick, but even for those who I write one for, I ALWAYS have them read it in my presence before I seal it, sign over the envelope, and hand it to the person to send it (I won't take responsibility to the post, that's their problem). The person I am writing for gets the call on whether to send it or not (and if I have grammar issues or some issues with how they want certain aspects emphasized, we can change it).

In my early career, I was accused of gaslighting a student that I had recommended for graduate school elsewhere by writing an insincere letter. I was fortunately able to sort it out with the student (because a copy of that letter was scanned into the school's graduate school SAP database when I had angrily called them about both the breach of privacy revealing a letter and that I wrote a sincerely good one). Turned out that it was mistaken for another applicant and quickly offered a funded place (which the student wisely declined in favor of Pardee), but I still hold it against them for the breach. I make it a point to bash that particular university and departrment every single time they go recruiting our students or going for a T-series grant.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

To all my fellow preceptors-
how do you deal with requests for recommendation letters and references from former "difficult" students?

I work at a competitive site, so all of my former APPE students have asked if they can list me as a reference or if I would be willing to write a letter of recommendation, and I don't mind at all. Most of our students have been great. However one student in particular was VERY difficult the first 2 weeks or so. Things like, going home halfway through the day thinking no one would notice ( and then lying about it), asking to end the rotation a few days early ( not joking), arguing about why he couldn't do certain things, etc. After the last incident, we sat him down and and had a serious talk abt what the next steps would be if this behavior continued. He straightened out after that. He's applying for fellowships soon and is asking if he can list me as a reference or if I would be willing to write a LOR.

I feel like those first couple of weeks really left a sour taste in my mouth. The ridiculous, unprofessional behavior stopped after the talk, but is it petty of me to still not want to do anything for this kid? I've never said no to being listed a reference, so I'm totally clueless on how to handle this.

Help right the wrong done by the adcom.

Agree to write him a letter and roast him to a crisp

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

To all my fellow preceptors-
how do you deal with requests for recommendation letters and references from former "difficult" students?

I work at a competitive site, so all of my former APPE students have asked if they can list me as a reference or if I would be willing to write a letter of recommendation, and I don't mind at all. Most of our students have been great. However one student in particular was VERY difficult the first 2 weeks or so. Things like, going home halfway through the day thinking no one would notice ( and then lying about it), asking to end the rotation a few days early ( not joking), arguing about why he couldn't do certain things, etc. After the last incident, we sat him down and and had a serious talk abt what the next steps would be if this behavior continued. He straightened out after that. He's applying for fellowships soon and is asking if he can list me as a reference or if I would be willing to write a LOR.

I feel like those first couple of weeks really left a sour taste in my mouth. The ridiculous, unprofessional behavior stopped after the talk, but is it petty of me to still not want to do anything for this kid? I've never said no to being listed a reference, so I'm totally clueless on how to handle this.

Help right the wrong done by the adcom.

Agree to write him a letter and roast him to a crisp

I’ve personally seen this play out three ways:

1) Agree and roast him because he didn’t specify if you were willing to write him a good letter

2) Agree and write him a generic letter

3) Do not agree and be up front that you only write rec letters for strong candidates, or make it clear to him that you’re willing but can not write a strong letter

 

[Sine Cura]

I wouldn't waste a nanosecond.

Every day is an interview. The lack of introspection of a ****ty employee or student actually asking me for help is a red flag in itself

 

[297point1]

I tell the marginal students I will write a "Letter of Evaluation" (which is pointedly not the same as a letter of recommendation), and that the letter will be a fair and candid assessment of their strengths AND weaknesses.

I then ask them if they still want the letter; 75% say thanks but no thanks, and the other 25% still say they want it (out of either desperation or ignorance).

 

[BenJammin]

I'm honestly shocked at how many of you would try to get out of writing one. If any of your students asks you for a LOR you need to do it. No doubt about it. The whole purpose of an employer or a school program requesting LORs is to weed out the dummies who ask employers who weren't impressed with them to recommend them somewhere else. If every LOR is positive then they have zero value. I have NEVER refused to write one, good or bad.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

I'm honestly shocked at how many of you would try to get out of writing one. If any of your students asks you for a LOR you need to do it. No doubt about it. The whole purpose of an employer or a school program requesting LORs is to weed out the dummies who ask employers who weren't impressed with them to recommend them somewhere else. If every LOR is positive then they have zero value. I have NEVER refused to write one, good or bad.

I like to do a scary laugh when I get called out of the blue from people to ask about people

"THEY WHAT!?"

 

[lord999]

I'm honestly shocked at how many of you would try to get out of writing one. If any of your students asks you for a LOR you need to do it. No doubt about it. The whole purpose of an employer or a school program requesting LORs is to weed out the dummies who ask employers who weren't impressed with them to recommend them somewhere else. If every LOR is positive then they have zero value. I have NEVER refused to write one, good or bad.

Aren't you a director? Did you forget your HR lessons in terms of employer liability? Same problem with LoRs, refusing to provide one IS the answer as writing something unproveably negative (and I mean something like stealing from the vault or something) opens you up for libel and slander. No, thank you.

Only exception is the non-solicited evaluations, so if the FBI or OPM send you a note asking you to fill this out for an employee, you should do so even if negative, especially if negative. But for LoRs, there is no reason to accept doing one if you can't give a recommendation.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Aren't you a director? Did you forget your HR lessons in terms of employer liability? Same problem with LoRs, refusing to provide one IS the answer as writing something unproveably negative (and I mean something like stealing from the vault or something) opens you up for libel and slander. No, thank you.

Only exception is the non-solicited evaluations, so if the FBI or OPM send you a note asking you to fill this out for an employee, you should do so even if negative, especially if negative. But for LoRs, there is no reason to accept doing one if you can't give a recommendation.

Hahaha, owners of independent pharmacies calling themselves "director" is a stretch

 

[spacecowgirl]

I wouldn't waste a nanosecond.

Every day is an interview. The lack of introspection of a ****ty employee or student actually asking me for help is a red flag in itself

This. And it is a learning opportunity to point that out to the asker, diplomatically. It's hard to teach introspection but this would be one of the few times you can. And those skills are 100x more important than a clinical point that anyone can teach, IMO. I mean if you give someone the wrong dose of TPA, that would be an important clinical point but you know what I mean.

 

[bacillus1]

I had a situation like this once. I told the student that I could write him a letter, but it would not be a strong one. He still wanted me to. I wrote him one and checked "recommend with reservations". He did not match.

 

[KidPharmD]

Aren't you a director? Did you forget your HR lessons in terms of employer liability? Same problem with LoRs, refusing to provide one IS the answer as writing something unproveably negative (and I mean something like stealing from the vault or something) opens you up for libel and slander. No, thank you.

Only exception is the non-solicited evaluations, so if the FBI or OPM send you a note asking you to fill this out for an employee, you should do so even if negative, especially if negative. But for LoRs, there is no reason to accept doing one if you can't give a recommendation.

It would be libel since it would be written. Additionally, Defamation (slander or libel) has to be a proven false statement of fact that (in most cases) the speaker/writer had to be aware of the inaccuracy of. I can't imagine anything that I would write about students to fit these conditions. Additionally, any shortcomings would be referenced in my final evaluation of that student. Lack of a dispute of that eval should easily be proof that the student did not find those facts false at the time I wrote them.

 

[pharmBear]

I feel your pain. Writing a letter also reflects on yourself.

This is what I tell my students:
For the weak ones where I cant see myself recommending them I say " I apologize I am not the best candidate to write you a strong recommendation, I do wish you the best in your professional endevors/goals."

Or a simple "I am sorry I cant" would suffice. Feel free to insert a reason as desire .
1) if I write a good one then it is not a true reflection of my evaluation of the student.
2) if i write a generic one or a non-positive one, I am hurting their chance in a competitive field.

Again, up to your specific scenario..

 

[BenJammin]

Writing something negative that you cannot prove does not necessarily open you up for libel and slander. The burden would be on the student, not me. I don't have to prove that the claims in my LOR are true, even though I would never knowingly write something down that was false.

 

[Elle928]

Thanks everyone for all of your tips and suggestions! I didn’t realize how common this situation was. It shocks me that students think it’s okay to behave like this. I remember my school having a few days of “boot camp” before rotations started that went over common clinical topics, rules about professionalism, etc. I guess schools just don’t do this anymore or maybe there are students that just don’t care?

I wouldn't waste a nanosecond.

Every day is an interview. The lack of introspection of a ****ty employee or student actually asking me for help is a red flag in itself

I was shocked!! I don’t know if the kid is desperate, just doesn’t remember or really just doesn’t think he did anything wrong?

I tell the marginal students I will write a "Letter of Evaluation" (which is pointedly not the same as a letter of recommendation), and that the letter will be a fair and candid assessment of their strengths AND weaknesses.

I then ask them if they still want the letter; 75% say thanks but no thanks, and the other 25% still say they want it (out of either desperation or ignorance).

Thanks, Will be using this line!

 

[Elle928]

It would be libel since it would be written. Additionally, Defamation (slander or libel) has to be a proven false statement of fact that (in most cases) the speaker/writer had to be aware of the inaccuracy of. I can't imagine anything that I would write about students to fit these conditions. Additionally, any shortcomings would be referenced in my final evaluation of that student. Lack of a dispute of that eval should easily be proof that the student did not find those facts false at the time I wrote them.

This is exactly what I was worried about. To be honest, I don’t know all the rules/laws about this, but have always been told that it’s safer to refuse being listed as a reference and that a bad LOR can lead to you being more vulnerable to lawsuits.

 

[Sine Cura]

I don't see how a not-very-bright person misguidedly asking for a letter of reference would be able to claim damages in a defamation case if the letter contents are unknown.

I won't write a letter because I don't waste my time for bad students

 

[HandsomeVampire]

What if it's not a great LOR or a bad LOR.
To whom it may concern,
"Yeah the kid is decent, he's okay. Not bad at all. Gets the job done. You guys hiring?"
- Preceptor