Ridiculous expectations from preceptors

[BC_89]

I have read hundreds of resumes so far, from both applicants' and hiring perspectives. I omitted my entire APPE stuff when I applied for my first job out of school, and it was all fine. My interns never included the prior managers or their whole panel of committee members they had, and I don't expect them either. In addition, software engineers' resumes generally follow a strict one-page limit rule. Anything non-essential is seen as redundant.

I'm talking about PharmD applicants coming right out of school.

The reason I'm making this notion is your statement of not seeing a PharmD applicant put preceptors on their CV's from their rotations. Since this is a topic about preceptors and APPE students, it seems a bit surprising to me that you find it odd that a graduate would indeed, label his/her preceptors when first trying to get into the work force.

And yes, any other profession out there that is not academia/research/professional healthcare driven are going to use a 1 (no more than 2), page resume. Matter of fact, I can't think of many other types of professions (at least starting out) that even use a CV.

I guess what Im trying to straighten out is, "your experience" in CS vs "your experience" in PharmD graduates. This is a preceptor/PharmD/expectations thread and albeit you may have looked at applications, they seem (for the most part) to have nothing to do with this profession or format (CV vs resume). With that dialogue, I can at least understand why some preceptors think twice (if at all, who knows..I'm not one) about their name being mentioned on a CV from current APPE students based on how they operate on rotations.

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[KidPharmD]

Most new grad pharmacists have their APPEs listed until they land their first licensed job. Why do you keep trying to compare to other fields?

Because he has never actually been a pharmacist. He said he went straight to industry and then is going into CS.

 

[KidPharmD]

And yes, any other profession out there that is not academia/research/professional healthcare driven are going to use a 1 (no more than 2), page resume. Matter of fact, I can't think of many other types of professions (at least starting out) that even use a CV.

In other English speaking locations, CV=resume (US). So a Short CV is what we think of as a resume. In the US, a CV almost always refers to the complete career summary that almost never removes anything. This is almost entirely an academia thing. Medicine was so associated with academia for so long that they adopted CV's over resume's as did clinical pharmacy for the same reasons. That practice in clinical pharmacy has expanded to all of hospital pharmacy for the most part (especially as the division between operational and clinical pharmacy blurs). I think you will find that outside of Academia (and academic research) and medical professions a long form CV is rare.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Most new grad pharmacists have their APPEs listed until they land their first licensed job. Why do you keep trying to compare to other fields?

I am not saying new grads shouldn't list APPEs, but no need to spell out preceptor names. Okay, I reached out and asked my pharmacist friends for their resumes used for 1st job postgrad. None of them listed their preceptors' names for APPEs so 🤷

 

[letsquitpharm]

I guess what Im trying to straighten out is, "your experience" in CS vs "your experience" in PharmD graduates. This is a preceptor/PharmD/expectations thread and albeit you may have looked at applications, they seem (for the most part) to have nothing to do with this profession or format (CV vs resume). With that dialogue, I can at least understand why some preceptors think twice (if at all, who knows..I'm not one) about their name being mentioned on a CV from current APPE students based on how they operate on rotations.

My pharmacist friends, mostly in retail, didn't list their APPE preceptors at all. Their resumes follow one-page limit as well. I am not sure about "clinical pharmacists" resumes or cv, but again, hospital employs less than 1/3 of all pharmacist workforce, and I would expect that figure to be much smaller among new grads according to 2021 stats.

Why would hospital preceptors be so seemingly concerned with their names potentially put on their students resume after all, if there's less than 1/3 chance of a new grad ever getting a residency or a hospital job as 1st job postgrad? Doesn't a typical hospital job hiring process have reference check? If a hiring manager knows the person listed, the manager can request the candidate to provide reference contact info or reach out directly. If the hiring manager doesn't know the preceptor, it becomes a hit-and-miss thing and never affects the preceptor's reputation whatsoever. Either way, there's no chance "bad" candidates can fool their way into a hospital job by mentioning APPE preceptors on resumes...even PGY-1/2s are struggling to fool their way into hospital jobs. The impact of a APPE preceptor on a job application is pretty small as I can imagine. That's also why I suggested letting the market forces be the gatekeeper for this profession, and stop letting individual preceptors, who can be invariably biased, do the QC work.

The chance of a "bad" student you encountered in APPE unappropriately listing you as a preceptor, or a reference, on the resume is quite low, considering the chance of the student ever landing a hospital residency/job and risking being asked to use you as a reference in a job interview process. Retail pharmacy doesn't care what a hospital preceptor has to say about the newly licensed candidate. Why making a big deal out of a low probability event and trying to justify being rough on students due to fear for such an unlikely scenario happening? I can't wrap my head around your logic behind all this.

 

[letsquitpharm]

Because he has never actually been a pharmacist. He said he went straight to industry and then is going into CS.

I have been referred to by the terms like "industrial pharmacist", "IT pharmacist" and even "informatics pharmacist" on numerous occasions somehow, I guess pharmacy schools, students, and graduates need to stop categorizing me as such since I have never actually been a pharmacist

 

[projektreverb]

I see them on new grads (resident applications) - but once you have a job, I think they should be dropped (ie. you are applying for your second job post graduation)

This is exactly what I did. Once I cleared my first pharmacist job all the rotations dropped off my resume.

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

Either way, there's no chance "bad" candidates can fool their way into a hospital job by mentioning APPE preceptors on resumes...even PGY-1/2s are struggling to fool their way into hospital jobs. The impact of a APPE preceptor on a job application is pretty small as I can imagine. That's also why I suggested letting the market forces be the gatekeeper for this profession, and stop letting individual preceptors, who can be invariably biased, do the QC work.

You've clearly never worked in a hospital. While one cannot use unwitting preceptors as the sole method of fooling their way into a job, being personable for an hour or two, along with a few resume tweaks, is really all it takes. I for one use the Don Draper method for picking up work.

 

[BC_89]

My pharmacist friends, mostly in retail, didn't list their APPE preceptors at all. Their resumes follow one-page limit as well. I am not sure about "clinical pharmacists" resumes or cv, but again, hospital employs less than 1/3 of all pharmacist workforce, and I would expect that figure to be much smaller among new grads according to 2021 stats.

This is why it's a dangerous assumption to place your limited experience in comparing two completely different occupations, and then turn-around and state how baffling it is that someone mentions preceptors on an application.

Why would hospital preceptors be so seemingly concerned with their names potentially put on their students resume after all, if there's less than 1/3 chance of a new grad ever getting a residency or a hospital job as 1st job postgrad? Doesn't a typical hospital job hiring process have reference check? If a hiring manager knows the person listed, the manager can request the candidate to provide reference contact info or reach out directly. If the hiring manager doesn't know the preceptor, it becomes a hit-and-miss thing and never affects the preceptor's reputation whatsoever.

Pharmacy can be a small world for applicants that are applying locally from there APPE sites. If a student didn't perform as they should in the eyes of a preceptor, then I can imagine (not that I would care myself) that a hiring committee constantly getting sub-par students that seem to be associated to a specific preceptor and their specific rotation (pediatric pharmacy rotation encompassed in the NICU for example) might have the hiring committee second guess the applicants. Again, I do not believe that this type of an impact would exist in many circumstances (and certainly not in a 4–6-week single rotation), but at least I can try and understand where someone might start thinking that way.

Either way, there's no chance "bad" candidates can fool their way into a hospital job by mentioning APPE preceptors on resumes...even PGY-1/2s are struggling to fool their way into hospital jobs. The impact of a APPE preceptor on a job application is pretty small as I can imagine. That's also why I suggested letting the market forces be the gatekeeper for this profession, and stop letting individual preceptors, who can be invariably biased, do the QC work.

Many agree with this - however, my point with you was your resume comparison between two completely different professions and slipping the unnoticed-hyperbole notion that you have looked at hundreds of applicants and that somehow it just seems so far-fetched and complexing that PharmD graduates are actually listing the names of preceptors. I get it, based on experiences of bad preceptors, it can rub off the wrong way when a preceptor stands on the pedestal to have the gatekeeper mindset. You need to come up with other arguments besides your listed experiences because...well... you don't have any working as a pharmacist + reading plenty of PharmD resumes.

Retail pharmacy doesn't care what a hospital preceptor has to say about the newly licensed candidate.

I agree

Why making a big deal out of a low probability event and trying to justify being rough on students due to fear for such an unlikely scenario happening?

I agree not to make a big deal out of a low probability. I certainly believe that the majority would agree that there should be no reason to be rough on students due to fear of "anything" other than patient harm.

I can't wrap my head around your logic behind all this.

Because you assumed my stance. You equated me of trying to "understand" others as me "agreeing" with others.

Point out anywhere on here that I agree and believe that preceptors should be gatekeepers and hard on students whenever their name is even slightly mentioned on a resume.

 

[letsquitpharm]

This is why it's a dangerous assumption to place your limited experience in comparing two completely different occupations, and then turn-around and state how baffling it is that someone mentions preceptors on an application.

Community pharmacy and hospital pharmacy are completely different professions now? WHAT?!

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Community pharmacy and hospital pharmacy are completely different professions now? WHAT?!

I'm going to guess that was referring to you continually trying to compare to your CS experiences

 

[letsquitpharm]

I'm going to guess that was referring to you continually trying to compare to your CS experiences

And I was using fresh grad retail pharmacists resume as comparator

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

And I was using fresh grad retail pharmacists resume as comparator

I don't want to speak for BC but I see two separate issues
1) limited experience with pharmacist resumes
2) experience with CS resumes that you want to compare to

For what it's worth, I worked retail as my first licensed job and used a longer CV with preceptors listed. I took them off as soon as I got that first job though.

 

[KidPharmD]

Why would hospital preceptors be so seemingly concerned with their names potentially put on their students resume after all, if there's less than 1/3 chance of a new grad ever getting a residency or a hospital job as 1st job postgrad?

I went back and looked. I keep pretty good records of the students I have had. Right around 84% of my students across my entire career have graduated to either take a residency/fellowship or a hospital based job. Two of the students that took retail jobs were hired by a classmate of mine who called me (she is the local recruiter for one of the chains). In my experience, the retail bound students are much less likely to sign up for my rotation so my odds are much higher.

Point out anywhere on here that I agree and believe that preceptors should be gatekeepers and hard on students whenever their name is even slightly mentioned on a resume

I just want to say that since this line of conversation started with me, that I do not believe that I should be harder on students because they will have my name on their CV. I do believe that I should CARE how they perform and there is a level of performance that should result in failing my rotation. If that means I am some sort of "gatekeeper" because there is a chance that failing my rotation will prevent them from graduating (at least on time) then so be it.

 

[Pharmadork]

Having to be there at a certain time and not willing to change the hours. This preceptor knew damn well that I drive and that around this hospital there is no parking/street cleaning every day between 730AM-9AM but she wanted me there at 8AM (almost impossible to find parking) instead of changing the time to 905AM.

She had the audacity to tell me to take the subway and that cars are bad for the environment.

Ummm you are CRAZY if you think a preceptor should change the schedule to accommodate YOUR schedule. If everyone else can get there at 8am then so can you. Figure it out. It’s called get there early.

 

[Pharmadork]

all preceptors should read this article

The Myth of the Tough Preceptor — The Overrun

I had a reputation as a tough preceptor. I was the one that people either sought out because they wanted the challenge; or the one that they avoided. I thought I held students to a high standard, thought I was tough but fair, and thought that any student of mine who passed through my finishing schoo

www.overrunproductions.com

Hey! Thanks for that! What a great article!

 

[BC_89]

I just want to say that since this line of conversation started with me, that I do not believe that I should be harder on students because they will have my name on their CV. I do believe that I should CARE how they perform and there is a level of performance that should result in failing my rotation. If that means I am some sort of "gatekeeper" because there is a chance that failing my rotation will prevent them from graduating (at least on time) then so be it.

Then really this just comes down to semantics and I'd say I agree more than not. I won't correlate gatekeeper with a student who fails to meet minimum requirements discussed at the beginning of a rotation (that is truly on them, and they did it to themselves). As for the level of performance and what exactly the requirements are, I do agree that something needs to be measured objectively: Topic Discussions, Journal Clubs, Patient Case Presentations, participating on rounds by week { }, answering follow up questions when given a task to look up information, so on and so forth.

Now, if part of the objective measurement is to regurgitate a hot-spot question in front of a group, or decide that even though a student has progressed, but has done so at a slower rate than most, well that becomes a bit more of a subjective analysis and it becomes a bit tricky when doing the overall evaluation in terms of finding an "A" student vs a "B" student. For that reason, I don't agree that APPE rotations need to be a letter grade (Either they pass or fail, no in-between).

So, unless its unprofessionalism, failure to meet objective requirements (projects and due dates), or truly could cause patient harm (student roles the dice on a recommendation because they just don't want to ask someone when they know they should and its recorded multiple times), then I say it's a pass and nothing more should be done (purely coming off of my own N=1 experience).

I was using fresh grad retail pharmacists resume as comparator

Don't compare resumes of two different career fields as if you had experience in both fields is what I am saying (the cliff note version).

 

[Sparda29]

Ummm you are CRAZY if you think a preceptor should change the schedule to accommodate YOUR schedule. If everyone else can get there at 8am then so can you. Figure it out. It’s called get there early.

Not my schedule, it's the city's schedule. Almost everyone who was morning shift who drove in would start their day after 9AM. Even if I got there early, the car would have to be moved at 730AM. The whole point of this was so that I could park close to the hospital instead of having to park far away in an area with a different street cleaning schedule.

Just extend my day by an hour and 5 minutes. The preceptor doesn't need to be there while I'm there.

 

[nampa]

I went back and looked. I keep pretty good records of the students I have had. Right around 84% of my students across my entire career have graduated to either take a residency/fellowship or a hospital based job. Two of the students that took retail jobs were hired by a classmate of mine who called me (she is the local recruiter for one of the chains). In my experience, the retail bound students are much less likely to sign up for my rotation so my odds are much higher.


I just want to say that since this line of conversation started with me, that I do not believe that I should be harder on students because they will have my name on their CV. I do believe that I should CARE how they perform and there is a level of performance that should result in failing my rotation. If that means I am some sort of "gatekeeper" because there is a chance that failing my rotation will prevent them from graduating (at least on time) then so be it.

How do you handle student expectations and compliants? It seems, even weak students who are not interested in inpatient, will be flustered by the material. I have tried operating the clinical components in the privacy of a non-used room, reviewing pts., going over staffing work, such as vanc or heparin dosing and following patients. we don't really go on the floors, however. I do all this in a very low-stakes environment, grading-wise, which I make known to the students.

 

[JustFillIt]

How do you handle student expectations and compliants? It seems, even weak students who are not interested in inpatient, will be flustered by the material. I have tried operating the clinical components in the privacy of a non-used room, reviewing pts., going over staffing work, such as vanc or heparin dosing and following patients. we don't really go on the floors, however. I do all this in a very low-stakes environment, grading-wise, which I make known to the students.

Stop taking students..

 

[lord999]

I went back and looked. I keep pretty good records of the students I have had. Right around 84% of my students across my entire career have graduated to either take a residency/fellowship or a hospital based job. Two of the students that took retail jobs were hired by a classmate of mine who called me (she is the local recruiter for one of the chains). In my experience, the retail bound students are much less likely to sign up for my rotation so my odds are much higher.


I just want to say that since this line of conversation started with me, that I do not believe that I should be harder on students because they will have my name on their CV. I do believe that I should CARE how they perform and there is a level of performance that should result in failing my rotation. If that means I am some sort of "gatekeeper" because there is a chance that failing my rotation will prevent them from graduating (at least on time) then so be it.

I hate gatekeeping behavior. This business is hard enough without gratuitous abuse. I agree with standards based. For nuclear, I had technical standards that I gave to a clerkship student beforehand in terms of technique and procedural expectations above and beyond the usual matters (being on time). I've written up and voted for termination (and succeeded) faculty who are excessive in this respect as there's a clear boundary between strict standards and sadistic abuse of their charges. Creating a hostile environment is not ok on the preceptor side.

But this is at the undergraduate level for mere professionalism and competency. Those going for the MS or in advanced training, the expectation is set that competence is a minimum but not passable on its own without perception and situational awareness with exception recovery skills.

I expect an undergraduate to recognize a problem and get the resources involved to solve a problem even if it is not them. I expect a graduate to solve the problem without recourse to assistance unless the solution is truly out of their scope.

 

[RXDOC1986]

I went to a cheap public school, so my total debt was manageable and minimal, ~60k.

I went straight into industry. I made 120k 1st yr, 200k+ 2nd yr, and will be making 400k+/yr starting Jan 2023. I am <3y out of pharmacy school and have double masters, one in Chem and one in CS, for which I pursued shortly after pharmacy school.

Yeah, let me contradict myself, and the whole cs career thing is merely a myth and utter bust. PLEASE DO NOT CODE FOR A LIVING. IT ABSOLUTELY SUCKS, SATISFIED?......can't wait to see my bank account balloon to 1M+ cash in a couple of yrs lol. I don't wanna see another competitor with a similar background as mine when I interview for a VP position ten yrs down the road. So don't code, stay in pharmacy. pharmacy is awesome 👏

letsquitpharm;
I like the way you always seem to interject yourself into every topic! This thread was about Preceptors, I think.
Did ANYBODY ask you how much you made, your incredible 500% raises, or the fact that you will have $1 million in CASH within TWO years. We are all extremely happy for your success. Maybe when you are VP, you will hopefully be too busy to interact with this board. Isn't there a board for extremely gifted, multi-millionaire coders you can go to, where you can all compare the size of your bank account?
This is a PHARMACY board, for pharmacists. It took me a good 37 years to have a couple of million $ in the bank and a million $ home. Working hard as a Pharmacist! AND NO, never wanted to be in CS or a programmer.
That is why I now have you on ignore, you are like a broken record.
Over and out!

 

[letsquitpharm]

letsquitpharm;
I like the way you always seem to interject yourself into every topic! This thread was about Preceptors, I think.
Did ANYBODY ask you how much you made, your incredible 500% raises, or the fact that you will have $1 million in CASH within TWO years. We are all extremely happy for your success. Maybe when you are VP, you will hopefully be too busy to interact with this board. Isn't there a board for extremely gifted, multi-millionaire coders you can go to, where you can all compare the size of your bank account?
This is a PHARMACY board, for pharmacists. It took me a good 37 years to have a couple of million $ in the bank and a million $ home. Working hard as a Pharmacist! AND NO, never wanted to be in CS or a programmer.
That is why I now have you on ignore, you are like a broken record.
Over and out!

You don't have to like me, just like I never liked a lot of my former pharmacy colleagues. I think you need to understand the fact that the world doesn't revolve around you, and your opinions don't matter a bit to me, just like your opinions never matter to your boss.

I am here to bring a unique perspective to the discussion, and it's not a hypothetical one. As long as I am not violating the forum rules, I can say whatever I want. The last time I checked you are not a mod yet. So don't pretend you are someone special and make others follow your order. You are just a pharmacist, period. Maybe you should try ranting to your boss or your customers and see how they respond.

Now make me!

 

[Rockinacoustic]

You don't have to like me, just like I never liked a lot of my former pharmacy colleagues. I think you need to understand the fact that the world doesn't revolve around you, and your opinions don't matter a bit to me, just like your opinions never matter to your boss.

I am here to bring a unique perspective to the discussion, and it's not a hypothetical one. As long as I am not violating the forum rules, I can say whatever I want. The last time I checked you are not a mod yet. So don't pretend you are someone special and make others follow your order. You are just a pharmacist, period. Maybe you should try ranting to your boss or your customers and see how they respond.

Now make me!

Pot... meet kettle

 

[projektreverb]

Pot... meet kettle

Nailed it.

 

[DagS132]

You don't have to like me, just like I never liked a lot of my former pharmacy colleagues. I think you need to understand the fact that the world doesn't revolve around you, and your opinions don't matter a bit to me, just like your opinions never matter to your boss.

I am here to bring a unique perspective to the discussion, and it's not a hypothetical one. As long as I am not violating the forum rules, I can say whatever I want. The last time I checked you are not a mod yet. So don't pretend you are someone special and make others follow your order. You are just a pharmacist, period. Maybe you should try ranting to your boss or your customers and see how they respond.

Now make me!

I don't think you even code. Every time you talk about the tech industry, its the complete opposite of what I see in my company and the company of my friends. And no, you cannot cite some article that only talks about Google to talk about the entire country

 

[letsquitpharm]

I don't think you even code. Every time you talk about the tech industry, its the complete opposite of what I see in my company and the company of my friends. And no, you cannot cite some article that only talks about Google to talk about the entire country

I just finished my MSCS commencement in Atlanta last Friday and got official degree verification today. I have been bombarded with recruiter messages since I started my vacation in Florida since last week (I even answered a headhunter call while I was in line to walk). Wanna see my national student clearinghouse and degree verification doc lol?

Not all developers are made equal, and my field is not slowing down hiring even in this time of the year it seems like.

 

[DagS132]

I just finished my MSCS commencement in Atlanta last Friday and got official degree verification today. I have been bombarded with recruiter messages since I started my vacation in Florida since last week (I even answered a headhunter call while I was in line to walk). Wanna see my national student clearinghouse and degree verification doc lol?

Not all developers are made equal, and my field is not slowing down hiring even in this time of the year it seems like.

I mean you just proved my point about not working in tech.... But good luck with your junior position

 

[letsquitpharm]

I mean you just proved my point about not working in tech.... But good luck with your junior position

Sorry to disappoint you, but every company I interviewed with gave me at least a senior title. I had to turn down a Meta offer recently (they are quietly hiring again, surprise, surprise lol! Check out their career page. Maybe Zuckerberg finally realized he laid off too many people and messed up badly) cuz their stock is so beaten down and isn't that much of a good deal anymore.

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

letsquitpharm;
I like the way you always seem to interject yourself into every topic! This thread was about Preceptors, I think.
Did ANYBODY ask you how much you made, your incredible 500% raises, or the fact that you will have $1 million in CASH within TWO years. We are all extremely happy for your success. Maybe when you are VP, you will hopefully be too busy to interact with this board. Isn't there a board for extremely gifted, multi-millionaire coders you can go to, where you can all compare the size of your bank account?
This is a PHARMACY board, for pharmacists. It took me a good 37 years to have a couple of million $ in the bank and a million $ home. Working hard as a Pharmacist! AND NO, never wanted to be in CS or a programmer.
That is why I now have you on ignore, you are like a broken record.
Over and out!

He (I'm assuming this person is a dude, based on the amount of testosterone that I smell across from the screen) probably didn't get the attention from his mommy and daddy when he needed it.
Hence getting off to one of the saddest anonymous forums on the internet.
Honestly, I feel bad for him that even with all that success (which he claims to have), I sense so much insecurity.
I sincerely hope he gets the attention he needs in real life one day.

Merry Christmas.

 

[projektreverb]

I’m sorry, I hate to interject but are we still talking about preceptor expectations? Or did this thread become a fight? Seems like every thread is getting derailed these days….

 

[DagS132]

I’m sorry, I hate to interject but are we still talking about preceptor expectations? Or did this thread become a fight? Seems like every thread is getting derailed these days….

Im trying to get the fake CS person out of here. Im sick of the 2 or 3 accounts here that just ramble about how great tech is even though none of them actually work in tech

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

I’m sorry, I hate to interject but are we still talking about preceptor expectations?

No

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

Fine, I'll contribute.
Fortunately, all my preceptors were more than reasonable, except I had one really tough one.
But I take full responsibility for my deficiencies.

 

[projektreverb]

Im trying to get the fake CS person out of here. Im sick of the 2 or 3 accounts here that just ramble about how great tech is even though none of them actually work in tech

No

That’s fine I guess but we’re detracting from the original topic. Maybe make a separate thread calling said person out as to not detract from OPs topic. Or just hit the ignore button.

 

[DagS132]

That’s fine I guess but we’re detracting from the original topic. Maybe make a separate thread calling said person out as to not detract from OPs topic. Or just hit the ignore button.

Im going to be honest, i enjoy laughing at these people's responses. Even some pharmacists have tried to tell me how the tech industry works which is even funnier. It sounds like a grade school child trying to guess how the world works.
But yes ignore all this, do not let me or any of the fake tech posters detract discussion

 

[RXDOC1986]

He (I'm assuming this person is a dude, based on the amount of testosterone that I smell across from the screen) probably didn't get the attention from his mommy and daddy when he needed it.
Hence getting off to one of the saddest anonymous forums on the internet.
Honestly, I feel bad for him that even with all that success (which he claims to have), I sense so much insecurity.
I sincerely hope he gets the attention he needs in real life one day.

Merry Christmas.

And that's why the Ignore button is pure gold! Try it, it works.
Merry Christmas to you, too.

 

[deleted727644]

I had one who was helll bent on trying to get me to not do hospital and gossip about me from day 1 all b/c I didn’t want to do residency (mainly b/c I couldn’t due to personal things). I was the topic discussion every week when I barely talked to my preceptor or anyone there since no one was helping me out and being discriminatory towards me. Pretty sure it was partially the preceptor ego feeling bruised since the preceptor was checking a married student out and I wasn’t kissing a*s. the preceptor didn’t even do residency either. It baffles me when you tell your preceptor what you wanna do post grad and instead of helping you, they try to rub salt in your wound and try to get the other students who had no plans of hospital to pursue it instead and open doors for those students. It doesn’t matter those students look up everything since they know how to kiss a*s and speak eloquently.

Welcome to world of hospital pharmacy where they love to throw you out in the wild with a presentation at the end and arrogantly ask you unfair questions and boast about the fact that you can’t achieve your future goals when in reality they did NOTHING to help you out or train you in your 6 long weeks with them. APPEs are becoming a waste of time. Preceptors are becoming more and more unfair.

 

[RxPreceptor]

He (I'm assuming this person is a dude, based on the amount of testosterone that I smell across from the screen) probably didn't get the attention from his mommy and daddy when he needed it.
Hence getting off to one of the saddest anonymous forums on the internet.
Honestly, I feel bad for him that even with all that success (which he claims to have), I sense so much insecurity.
I sincerely hope he gets the attention he needs in real life one day.

Merry Christmas.

🔥🔥🔥

 

[deleted727644]

Hospital pharmacists need to stop acting as if they are better and smarter than retail pharmacists. They’re not, they’re just arrogant and egotistical. The only reason they precept students is to get more $ and crush the dreams of students. They should be fired

 

[TheBlaah]

Hospital pharmacists need to stop acting as if they are better and smarter than retail pharmacists. They’re not, they’re just arrogant and egotistical. The only reason they precept students is to get more $ and crush the dreams of students. They should be fired

Woo wee. Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. I don't know what you went through, but it sounds like you need some therapy.

I used to precept students (P2 and P4). I'm not aware of any preceptor that gets paid money to do it. We might get a trip to midyear or a gift, but that's it. Usually it's the department that receives the money.

Quite frankly, having a student uses up more time than it saves even if you have the student do your med recs and educations (well, if you actually bother teaching that is). At my current institution, some pharmacists are basically forced to take on students which isn't ideal.

 

[deleted727644]

Woo wee. Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. I don't know what you went through, but it sounds like you need some therapy.

I used to precept students (P2 and P4). I'm not aware of any preceptor that gets paid money to do it. We might get a trip to midyear or a gift, but that's it. Usually it's the department that receives the money.

Quite frankly, having a student uses up more time than it saves even if you have the student do your med recs and educations (well, if you actually bother teaching that is). At my current institution, some pharmacists are basically forced to take on students which isn't ideal.

How do you precept your students?

The institutions we rotated at gave $ to preceptors. most times it was the schools that would give the $ to the department for taking in students

 

[RxPreceptor]

The “tough love” approach can be very polarizing. Some view it as the preceptor being an egotistical douche but I like to think of it as a form of negative feedback to ultimately make the student become more determined and self reliant (growth), learning from mistakes and learning to properly source evidence based information

I think we can all use some tough love (swift kick in the ass) in many aspects of life. Too many simply choose the path of least resistance

 

[Sparda29]

The “tough love” approach can be very polarizing. Some view it as the preceptor being an egotistical douche but I like to think of it as a form of negative feedback to ultimately make the student become more determined and self reliant (growth), learning from mistakes and learning to properly source evidence based information

I think we can all use some tough love (swift kick in the ass) in many aspects of life. Too many simply choose the path of least resistance

Depends on what the tough love is about.

The tough love about being early and dressing up fancy never worked on me.

The tough love on how to deliver recommendations to docs and how to interview for jobs worked on me. (Both were essentially, show confidence and dominance when you make recommendations or go on interviews. For recommendations, make it seem like you know exactly what you're talking about. Also, don't be afraid to bull**** a little during the interviews.)

 

[PikminOC]

Hospital pharmacists need to stop acting as if they are better and smarter than retail pharmacists. They’re not, they’re just arrogant and egotistical. The only reason they precept students is to get more $ and crush the dreams of students. They should be fired

All academics think they are better thank everyone else

 

[BidingMyTime]

Man, I had better preceptors than I deserved. I appreciated them, but I didn't appreciate them enough.

 

[BC_89]

Hospital pharmacists need to stop acting as if they are better and smarter than retail pharmacists. They’re not, they’re just arrogant and egotistical.

More knowledgeable in what way? Their clinical skills? It's part of the daily job & experience... I would say retail pharmacists are more knowledgeable and experienced with community-based procedures and the rules and regulations involved within their pharmacy and drug distribution. I would also say the oncology pharmacist is more knowledgeable and experienced in antineoplastic agents, and the ID pharmacist more knowledgeable and experienced in dealing with specific "bugs and drugs."

Being arrogant and egotistical is not uncommon and you'll encounter that in just about every profession. Intensivists may think they're better than the hospitalist when discharging a patient to the floor, and the hospitalist may think they're better than the primary care provider when discharging their patients to an amb-care clinic. Some MDs believe they're better than DO's. Specialty surgeons may think they're better than general surgeons. BC_89 thinks he's smarter and more knowledgeable than Bill Dance when fishing out on the lake, and more business savvy than Johnny Morris selling his collection of $150 fishing rods...

The only reason they precept students is to get more $ and crush the dreams of students. They should be fired

Paying money to the institute to take on pharmacy students is different than directly paying a preceptor. I have of course heard of certain bump in pay for having the title of preceptor with specific individuals (pennies on the dollar) or the school covering the cost of their state or ASHP membership +/- additional access to tertiary literature (micromedex, clinical pharmacology, UptoDate/Lexi).

That being said, you're correct - certain people should never be preceptors and it's important to evaluate your preceptor/site and send it off to your program (as I have done). That said, you're about to graduate and have just a few weeks left of your APPEs correct? I would urge you to focus more on graduation and NAPLEX at this time than wasting more energy on bad experiences.

***EDIT***

Since it seems you're trying to make the transition to go the DO route after you get your PharmD, I would remember your current complaints and see how it compares when you decide to become a medical student / resident...

 

[TheBlaah]

How do you precept your students?

The institutions we rotated at gave $ to preceptors. most times it was the schools that would give the $ to the department for taking in students

Personally, I'm pretty laid back. I ask them what their goals are and I adjust what I teach, to an extent, to their goals. However, there's obviously some basics that every student should learn. There's the school mandated projects (usually a SOAP or research journal or w/e).

I try to let them get them some "real practice" as a pharmacist and what kind of mindset they should have as one.

However, they are in a way, a representative of the hospital's pharmacy. Disrespect towards other departments or patients wouldn't be tolerated.

 

[deleted727644]

More knowledgeable in what way? Their clinical skills? It's part of the daily job & experience... I would say retail pharmacists are more knowledgeable and experienced with community-based procedures and the rules and regulations involved within their pharmacy and drug distribution. I would also say the oncology pharmacist is more knowledgeable and experienced in antineoplastic agents, and the ID pharmacist more knowledgeable and experienced in dealing with specific "bugs and drugs."

Being arrogant and egotistical is not uncommon and you'll encounter that in just about every profession. Intensivists may think they're better than the hospitalist when discharging a patient to the floor, and the hospitalist may think they're better than the primary care provider when discharging their patients to an amb-care clinic. Some MDs believe they're better than DO's. Specialty surgeons may think they're better than general surgeons. BC_89 thinks he's smarter and more knowledgeable than Bill Dance when fishing out on the lake, and more business savvy than Johnny Morris selling his collection of $150 fishing rods...



Paying money to the institute to take on pharmacy students is different than directly paying a preceptor. I have of course heard of certain bump in pay for having the title of preceptor with specific individuals (pennies on the dollar) or the school covering the cost of their state or ASHP membership +/- additional access to tertiary literature (micromedex, clinical pharmacology, UptoDate/Lexi).

That being said, you're correct - certain people should never be preceptors and it's important to evaluate your preceptor/site and send it off to your program (as I have done). That said, you're about to graduate and have just a few weeks left of your APPEs correct? I would urge you to focus more on graduation and NAPLEX at this time than wasting more energy on bad experiences.

***EDIT***

Since it seems you're trying to make the transition to go the DO route after you get your PharmD, I would remember your current complaints and see how it compares when you decide to become a medical student / resident...

Whoa stalker much?

Anyways my preceptor directly told me he gets paid to precept students so that’s why he takes on students . Not sure how much or if the department or the school pays but that is what he said.

it is pretty sad that there are even ID pharmacists specifically when
every pharmacist should be knowledgeable about ID and current guidelines for it. hospitals shouldn’t even have specialties for pharmacy

The community pharmacists I encountered knew the same things hospital Pharmacists knew and shared their knowledge more to their students. Maybe they forgot goal trough levels for vancomycin but everything else they remember

 

[deleted727644]

Personally, I'm pretty laid back. I ask them what their goals are and I adjust what I teach, to an extent, to their goals. However, there's obviously some basics that every student should learn. There's the school mandated projects (usually a SOAP or research journal or w/e).

I try to let them get them some "real practice" as a pharmacist and what kind of mindset they should have as one.

However, they are in a way, a representative of the hospital's pharmacy. Disrespect towards other departments or patients wouldn't be tolerated.

You seem fair