Pregnant during Residency??

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I am a ca-2. I had a baby in medical school and I had another on July of this year...starting my ca-2 year.

i am one of those people who thought I wouldn't be slowed down by pregancy - i am also 36yo. I had done it before and not needed to slow down. My plan was to just keep working until I went into labor and then take 3 weeks off (my sick days). I worked in the SICU the month of June, the first week of July I took call on Monday, stayed late until midnight on Tuesday, worked Wednesday, took call on Thursday and went into preterm labor Friday morning at 32w6d...with my preterm baby boy spending 3 weeks in the NICU and him coming home the Friday before I started back to work.

You have an obligation to your co-residents and your program to work your hardest and as you can tell from the previous posts there are not a lot of people in our profession that will cut you any slack. However, I wish that I had slowed down a little bit. I could have traded SICU months with someone, I could have not taken my late call (voluntary) that Tuesday. If I had admitted to myself that I needed to take it easy, I could have done things to make it happen without adversely affecting my coworkers. I was lucky that my son didn't have too many problems...but as i see NEC babies, IVH babies getting shunts, BPD babies in the hospital for 17 months...I am willing to take the heat for recommending that pregnant residents slow down a little bit ..because you will never forgive yourself if you work yourself into a perterm delivery and your child has any of those complications.

that being said, i think there is only one study that shows increased preterm deliveries for residents and that was in Israel - an american study looking at OB and peds residents found a statistically significant increase in preterm labor...but not deliveries.

there is never a good time to have a baby when you are a professional woman - period. No matter how hard you work while pregnant there are people who will think you are a jerk for being pregnant even if you don't slack at all.

If I were to have another baby, i would do it after residency while working a year of locums or a mommy track no call job.
 
Sugar72 said:
I am a ca-2. I had a baby in medical school and I had another on July of this year...starting my ca-2 year.

i am one of those people who thought I wouldn't be slowed down by pregancy - i am also 36yo. I had done it before and not needed to slow down. My plan was to just keep working until I went into labor and then take 3 weeks off (my sick days). I worked in the SICU the month of June, the first week of July I took call on Monday, stayed late until midnight on Tuesday, worked Wednesday, took call on Thursday and went into preterm labor Friday morning at 32w6d...

Umm... either you are exaggerating or that is a pretty solid work hour violation you got going on there? Which program are you at again?
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:corny:

...by the end of the movie I'll understand whether these two really like, or dislike one another. I'm 50/50 right now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coprolalia
Back-handed compliment aside, do you care to point out one instance where I ever "confabulated"(in reference to, I assume, the third definition)? In the meantime, if you're going to try to poison the well, at least make an attempt to back it up with irrefutable references to clear examples of the purported behavior.

Or, maybe a better example of how to denigrate someone could be just to say something like, "Planktonmd, you're a know-it-all, arrogant, self-righteous jerk and should be wholly and completely ignored." In that way, you don't actually have to back up something that is self-evident.

-copro
No, the confabulation part was in reference to your usual endless whining, not specific to this thread.
This thread is one of the exceptional ones that you sometimes surprise us with.
Hey, don't be so sensitive
 
jennyboo said:
This is a somewhat unpleasant discussion which is, I think, quite insightful. It's neither encouraging nor positive toward female residents or anesthesiologists interested in having families. Most of the "input" is -- sad to say -- from the guys and assumes that females have the same family responsibilities as males. Which is not true -- we all have the same responsibilities on the job but when it comes to family, we don't. We often have *more* obligations when we have families than men with otherwise similar family structures. And as you can see from the discussion above, many people at work won't be sympathetic.

I'm in a large residency (roughly 80 residents in all three years, plus some 150 attendings and a bunch of CRNAs as well). I think it's very telling that although our M/F ratio is roughly 50/50, in my year a good number of male residents have children; none of the female residents do. Last year we had a female resident put on probation for "underperforming" right after she had her first baby, and no, she didn't have an easy time figuring out when to pump either. I don't know whether she truly underperformed or not, but as far as I knew she was probably a perfectly decent clinician.We certainly do have female residents who have babies. They do take some time off (I don't know how long) and our department is large enough that we do not notice any difference in workload.

You've gotten a lot of advice on everything from how not to offend co-workers to how much time off you need. Some of it is even from men (!) who are in fact single and/or don't have children. Seriously, if I have no idea how much time is needed, having never had a baby myself, how the hell would a single guy in his late 20s know? And yet the advice pours forth.

It's clear there is no good time, although some times are apparently slightly better than others. I would suggest simply asking people how they managed it. For all that it's hard for female residents to have children, at my program we still have a large wealth of other residents and attendings who've been there and who, unlike what you see here, aren't that unsympathetic and can in fact offer some wisdom.
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(1) I'm not "a single guy in his late 20's". And, besides, that's irrelevant. My advice stands on its own merit.

(2) I've never argued (nor has anyone else) against the fact that women, even in this day and age, are probably expected to have and maintain greater child-rearing obligations. Don't start to introduce straw men into this "discussion".

(3) We've all had to make choices and sacrfices in life to get where we are today. To expect that, now that you're in your late 20's or early 30's, your clock is ticking and you now want to have children - and expect your colleagues to bear that burden as well - demonstrates, at the very least, poor planning on your part and, at worst, utter selfishness.

That's what this discussion is about: burdening your professional colleagues with your personal choices. Understand that. To see it any other way is not indicative of a lack of sensitivity on the part of those on my side of the discussion, but perhaps more indicative of the fact that some women labor under the impression that they can "do everything" well (i.e., be a good doctor, be a good mommy, and be their best at both... while inherently expecting everyone else to share their burden without asking them). It is also indicative of selfishness.

Sacrifices. You gotta make choices. Decide what's more important to you: being a doctor or being a mommy. Then, don't bitch when you don't get everything you want. You can't have everything you want in this world, just because you want it. Your decisions sometimes affect other people too.

-copro
 
coprolalia said:
That's what this discussion is about: burdening your professional colleagues with your personal choices. Understand that. To see it any other way is not indicative of a lack of sensitivity on the part of those on my side of the discussion, but perhaps more indicative of the fact that some women labor under the impression that they can "do everything" well (i.e., be a good doctor, be a good mommy, and be their best at both... while inherently expecting everyone else to share their burden without asking them). It is also indicative of selfishness.

Sacrifices. You gotta make choices. Decide what's more important to you: being a doctor or being a mommy.

-copro
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I think what's frustrating for a lot of professional women is that we don't hear the same thing being said to male residents. They are never told they can't be good dads and good doctors at the same time. They are never told that they are being selfish if they want to be good fathers and physicians at the same time. And they are never told that they have to make the choice between being a doctor or being a daddy.

To some extent, biology is destiny and it's incredibly unfair, but we can't do anything about it and it kind of sucks.

Obviously women have to actually carry and bear the child which will always make it harder for a female resident to become a parent than a male resident. And because the childbearing years of women are inherently much more limited than they are of men, it's going to be almost impossible for most women to avoid having children during their medical training or early attending years (unless they choose to forego childbearing altogether). It's very difficult for many women to swallow--that biology is destiny. That everything you've worked your whole life for up until now, that is, your career, suddenly has to be put on hold and your colleagues will lose all respect for you just because you want to have children like >90% of the population. Not an easy pill to swallow.
 
coprolalia said:
(1) I'm not "a single guy in his late 20's". And, besides, that's irrelevant. My advice stands on its own merit.

(2) I've never argued (nor has anyone else) against the fact that women, even in this day and age, are probably expected to have and maintain greater child-rearing obligations. Don't start to introduce straw men into this "discussion".

(3) We've all had to make choices and sacrfices in life to get where we are today. To expect that, now that you're in your late 20's or early 30's, your clock is ticking and you now want to have children - and expect your colleagues to bear that burden as well - demonstrates, at the very least, poor planning on your part and, at worst, utter selfishness.

That's what this discussion is about: burdening your professional colleagues with your personal choices. Understand that. To see it any other way is not indicative of a lack of sensitivity on the part of those on my side of the discussion, but perhaps more indicative of the fact that some women labor under the impression that they can "do everything" well (i.e., be a good doctor, be a good mommy, and be their best at both... while inherently expecting everyone else to share their burden without asking them). It is also indicative of selfishness.

Sacrifices. You gotta make choices. Decide what's more important to you: being a doctor or being a mommy. Then, don't bitch when you don't get everything you want. You can't have everything you want in this world, just because you want it. Your decisions sometimes affect other people too.

-copro
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🙄 If I wanted to have a kid I wouldn't care about what burden it will be, just like no one else will care how unhappy I would be years later with no kids. The world is a selfish place. You choose to go to residency that has male and females and you know there is possibility that one of the females will get pregnant. That how it is, it's legal, residencies allow it.
 
Noyac said:
If you don't think 1-2 extra calls a month are a burden then I need you in my group.
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You seem to be a reasonable guy, Noyac. I'm surprised that you don't think 1-2 extra calls a month are no big deal if you're helping out a respected colleague for a brief and finite period of time.


OP, as with all things in life, take what you want ... and pay for it.

Be one of Copro's "type 1s" and pay for it by working late into your pregnancy, doing your best to minimize the burden upon others, and repaying the favors others offer.

Or be one of Copro's "type 3s" and pay for it when your colleagues think less of you or partners-to-be decide you're not partner material after all.


pillowhead said:
I think what's frustrating for a lot of professional women is that we don't hear the same thing being said to male residents. They are never told they can't be good dads and good doctors at the same time. They are never told that they are being selfish if they want to be good fathers and physicians at the same time. And they are never told that they have to make the choice between being a doctor or being a daddy.
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That's 'cause we don't balloon up with a parasitic abdominal tumor that makes us nauseous and cranky and tired and suddenly hungry for peppermint ice cream at 2 AM ...

All three times my wife was pregnant & postpartum, I worked the same hours as everyone else at my level. As a med student, with my fist kid, I left L&D while my wife was in (early) labor to walk next door to take an exam. I took five whole days off after my 2nd was born; none after my 3rd. I'm not at all unique or special or different from most other male med students or residents whose wives are knocked up.

And while you're right, nobody told me I couldn't be a good father and physician at the same time, I'll be the first to acknowledge that I'm probably not as good a father as I could be if I had a normal job instead of this job where I spend 65+ hrs/week in the hospital and 10-20 hrs/week more locked up in my study at home.

We all give up a lot to become physicians. Pregnancy just happens to be one of those few choices you can make that requires others to give up even more.
 
This thread is a perfect representation of why I rarely come to this forum. It's the same old self-righteous, tough-man bullsh:t over and over again. You guys need to get a new game. Really. It's getting old.
Do you even know how breastfeeding works? Doubtful. Pumping is not ideal but in order to work and breastfeed it is the only way. If a woman does not pump frequently and completely she will no longer have a milk supply. Have you ever had to try and cover up your engorged and leaking breasts because you couldn't get out to pump? Have you ever had to spend EVERY break you get pumping rather than eating or chatting it up with your colleages? You just have no idea.
Have you ever had to deal with the massive hormone fluctuations, c-section pain, post-partum bleeding and anemia, chronic sleep deprivation from breast-feeding a newborn around the clock (who is most likely sleeping for maybe 3-4 hours stretches if you're lucky at 4 weeks).
"To expect that, now that you're in your late 20's or early 30's, your clock is ticking and you now want to have children - and expect your colleagues to bear that burden as well - demonstrates, at the very least, poor planning on your part and, at worst, utter selfishness."
When, then, copro in all of your infinite wisdom is one supposed to have a child? High school? College? Mid to late 40s?
I'm in a mid-sized program and people having kids does not seem to affect any of us, call-wise or otherwise. It's a non-issue. We all expect that others are going to have children, family-emergencies, etc. We all support eachother and it all balances out. If there are people with underlying animosity about I haven't heard about it. If there are, then those people can suck it. Because while your job is very important, it is not your life. Go forth and multiply! Go at like rabbits! It's your life. Don't listen to these whiners. They are just big babies themselves.
 
Queuebee said:
This thread is a perfect representation of why I rarely come to this forum. It's the same old self-righteous, tough-man bullsh:t over and over again. You guys need to get a new game. Really. It's getting old.
Do you even know how breastfeeding works? Doubtful. Pumping is not ideal but in order to work and breastfeed it is the only way. If a woman does not pump frequently and completely she will no longer have a milk supply. Have you ever had to try and cover up your engorged and leaking breasts because you couldn't get out to pump? Have you ever had to spend EVERY break you get pumping rather than eating or chatting it up with your colleages? You just have no idea.
Have you ever had to deal with the massive hormone fluctuations, c-section pain, post-partum bleeding and anemia, chronic sleep deprivation from breast-feeding a newborn around the clock (who is most likely sleeping for maybe 3-4 hours stretches if you're lucky at 4 weeks).
"To expect that, now that you're in your late 20's or early 30's, your clock is ticking and you now want to have children - and expect your colleagues to bear that burden as well - demonstrates, at the very least, poor planning on your part and, at worst, utter selfishness."
When, then, copro in all of your infinite wisdom is one supposed to have a child? High school? College? Mid to late 40s?
I'm in a mid-sized program and people having kids does not seem to affect any of us, call-wise or otherwise. It's a non-issue. We all expect that others are going to have children, family-emergencies, etc. We all support eachother and it all balances out. If there are people with underlying animosity about I haven't heard about it. If there are, then those people can suck it. Because while your job is very important, it is not your life. Go forth and multiply! Go at like rabbits! It's your life. Don't listen to these whiners. They are just big babies themselves.
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Clearly a Type 3. This is precisely what I was talking about. And, this post is full of straw men (I've bolded them for you) and those "counter arguments" (if you can call off-point rants that) are almost completely irrelevant to this discussion.

------------------------------------------
READ THIS AGAIN: You have to make choices in life. One of those choices was to become a doctor. You decide when and at what time you're going to get pregnant. It is within your control whether or not you hire a nanny, or have in-laws come over, or put your kid in daycare, or find someone else to share the burden with. Don't expect (your word) and assume your colleagues care as much about your personal life as you do.
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pgg is the only one who's made a relevant post in the last few on this thread. No one even usually cares what the dad goes through, and he's just expected to continue to pull his weight in the program even after having the kid. If there's not a more clear example of a double-standard, I don't know what is.

As far as the red bolded text, I can tell you that there are a lot of people likely pissed off who don't say anything. But, they remember. And, if you take advantage of people (which has happened at my program), see if those same people are going to get your back when it comes to recommendations and private practice time. Unfortunately, I've dealt with a lot of your type. Stay in academics. Please. They are more capable and willing to deal with you.

-copro
 
pillowhead said:
If I wanted to have a kid I wouldn't care about what burden it will be, just like no one else will care how unhappy I would be years later with no kids. The world is a selfish place. You choose to go to residency that has male and females and you know there is possibility that one of the females will get pregnant. That how it is, it's legal, residencies allow it.
Click to expand...

Did anyone actually read and understand my post? Go back and do it again. I never said you can't or shouldn't have a kid in residency. I laid out a clear way to do it. But, you do have to decide what is more important: your child or your career. Don't expect everyone to cater to you. And, many women don't, just as nearly all men who are parents don't. Why is that so hard for people to understand? You made a choice to become a doctor. You have those obligations, especially in residency, to not only your education but to your colleagues.

BUT...

The above is the stupidest argument I've ever seen for anything... "it's legal" so do it. So was offering mortgages to people who couldn't afford them, and see the financial mess this country is in now. (Yes, THAT was a straw man, but it still amply illustrates the stupidity of a "because it's legal you can do it" argument).

-copro
 
doctor712 said:
:corny:

...by the end of the movie I'll understand whether these two really like, or dislike one another. I'm 50/50 right now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coprolalia
Back-handed compliment aside, do you care to point out one instance where I ever "confabulated"(in reference to, I assume, the third definition)? In the meantime, if you're going to try to poison the well, at least make an attempt to back it up with irrefutable references to clear examples of the purported behavior.

Or, maybe a better example of how to denigrate someone could be just to say something like, "Planktonmd, you're a know-it-all, arrogant, self-righteous jerk and should be wholly and completely ignored." In that way, you don't actually have to back up something that is self-evident.

-copro
No, the confabulation part was in reference to your usual endless whining, not specific to this thread.
This thread is one of the exceptional ones that you sometimes surprise us with.
Hey, don't be so sensitive
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I like Copro but he annoys me to death too.
It's a love hate relationship.
 
I have one of those too. 😀
 
pgg said:
OP, as with all things in life, take what you want ... and pay for it.

Be one of Copro's "type 1s" and pay for it by working late into your pregnancy, doing your best to minimize the burden upon others, and repaying the favors others offer.

Or be one of Copro's "type 3s" and pay for it when your colleagues think less of you or partners-to-be decide you're not partner material after all.
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:clap:

SAGE ADVICE.

Could not have said it better, or more succinctly, myself.

-copro
 
I have not "taken advantage" of anyone in my program. I have taken call for others voluntarily and gone out of my way numerous times to make life easier for my fellow residents. Maybe the problem with your "type 3" residents speaks to your residency program and the caliber of residents there. My point is that you have no clue what it is like to be a woman and have a baby during residency and your "double standard" arguement just doesn't hold water. It's NOT the same.
 
Queuebee said:
I have not "taken advantage" of anyone in my program. I have taken call for others voluntarily and gone out of my way numerous times to make life easier for my fellow residents. Maybe the problem with your "type 3" residents speaks to your residency program and the caliber of residents there. My point is that you have no clue what it is like to be a woman and have a baby during residency and your "double standard" arguement just doesn't hold water. It's NOT the same.
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I understand your point, but you keep missing mine. I could care less what it feels like to be pregnant, but I'm sure it's burdensome. That has nothing to do with this discussion.

Pregnancy is not cancer. You have a choice whether or not you want to get pregnant. Plan accordingly.

The rest of whatever you think you need to prove to me is irrelevant.

-copro
 
Queuebee said:
This thread is a perfect representation of why I rarely come to this forum. It's the same old self-righteous, tough-man bullsh:t over and over again. You guys need to get a new game. Really. It's getting old.
Do you even know how breastfeeding works? Doubtful. Pumping is not ideal but in order to work and breastfeed it is the only way. If a woman does not pump frequently and completely she will no longer have a milk supply. Have you ever had to try and cover up your engorged and leaking breasts because you couldn't get out to pump? Have you ever had to spend EVERY break you get pumping rather than eating or chatting it up with your colleages? You just have no idea.
Have you ever had to deal with the massive hormone fluctuations, c-section pain, post-partum bleeding and anemia, chronic sleep deprivation from breast-feeding a newborn around the clock (who is most likely sleeping for maybe 3-4 hours stretches if you're lucky at 4 weeks).
"To expect that, now that you're in your late 20's or early 30's, your clock is ticking and you now want to have children - and expect your colleagues to bear that burden as well - demonstrates, at the very least, poor planning on your part and, at worst, utter selfishness."
When, then, copro in all of your infinite wisdom is one supposed to have a child? High school? College? Mid to late 40s?
I'm in a mid-sized program and people having kids does not seem to affect any of us, call-wise or otherwise. It's a non-issue. We all expect that others are going to have children, family-emergencies, etc. We all support eachother and it all balances out. If there are people with underlying animosity about I haven't heard about it. If there are, then those people can suck it. Because while your job is very important, it is not your life. Go forth and multiply! Go at like rabbits! It's your life. Don't listen to these whiners. They are just big babies themselves.
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My girlfriend is a private practice general surgeon.

She would strongly disagree with your opinion since she and her colleagues had an increased workload to the already-overwhelming load they were carrying by pregnant resident colleagues back in her residency days.

I point this out in an attempt to show your finger wagging, condescending self that its not just dudes that are in disagreeance with you.

Not saying which way to go is right or wrong.

Have had several CRNA colleagues go thru pregnancy....was an increase workload on the docs but we were all happy to help since they were great people who did great work. They didnt expect leniency.

Really felt the need to inform you that

THERES NO "I" IN T-E-A-M.

You are not ENTITLED to a decreased workload because of pregnancy.

And you'll never influence people to be empathic with that kinda attitude.

BTW, do you have fibromyalgia? Irritable bowel syndrome? Are you allergic to more than one medicine?

Just curious.
 
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Copro,
You quoted my post under someone elses name. On purpose? Anyway... I think if someone wants to have a child, and does her work, what's wrong with that? If I want to have a kid, I will have one, do my job and take vacation if needed. It really pisses me off when people say you have to choose baby or career. You don't want to take extra call because it makes you unhappy, I don't wanna choose between baby and career cause it makes me unhappy. So whose happiness is more important? Obviously mine :meanie: And with your attitude I would do my best to give all the call to you. Oh, and btw, how would you feel if the baby was yours, huh??
 
coprolalia said:
Sacrifices. You gotta make choices. Decide what's more important to you: being a doctor or being a mommy. Then, don't bitch when you don't get everything you want. You can't have everything you want in this world, just because you want it. Your decisions sometimes affect other people too.

-copro
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I don't agree with everything but the above is true.
Ladies, feminists have gotten into your heads making you think you are perfect and you can do everything you wish to perfection.
Well it ain't true, nobody can. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You should reflect on why you want kids; is it just to "have" them, is it just your hormones, is it to be with them and help them grow and mature? because as a resident it's not gonna happen.
Are you comfortable with delivering the baby and dumping him of a few weeks later to day care where he'll catch every possible disease. That's cool sick at night means more time to see him cause day time interaction will be pretty scarce.

One last reminder, follow me here cause this is something nobody tells you: having a baby is hard harder then residency or anything else you can imagine.

If you want to go 20th century style fine but don't pretend you can do better than thousands of years of evolution.
 
climbingdocs said:
🙄 If I wanted to have a kid I wouldn't care about what burden it will be, just like no one else will care how unhappy I would be years later with no kids. The world is a selfish place. You choose to go to residency that has male and females and you know there is possibility that one of the females will get pregnant. That how it is, it's legal, residencies allow it.
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wow, that is quite a depressing attitude.
 
lisichka said:
omg. didn't know pregnancy is so problematic:scared::scared::scared:
during residency.
do women anaes. have to actually lift patients? or heavy gurneys?
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😆

Yep.
You might want to reconsider if this is a problem for you.
 
climbingdocs said:
Copro,
You quoted my post under someone elses name. On purpose? Anyway... I think if someone wants to have a child, and does her work, what's wrong with that? If I want to have a kid, I will have one, do my job and take vacation if needed. It really pisses me off when people say you have to choose baby or career. You don't want to take extra call because it makes you unhappy, I don't wanna choose between baby and career cause it makes me unhappy. So whose happiness is more important? Obviously mine :meanie: And with your attitude I would do my best to give all the call to you. Oh, and btw, how would you feel if the baby was yours, huh??
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As someone who is sympathetic to your situation and supportive of females who wish to have a family, attitudes such as yours are pretty tough to get past. I am curious to know if your program director and fellow residents know yet how you feel. If you feel this strongly about it, you should probably discuss it openly with them so that they can effectively plan how to cater to you.
 
As a woman who never plans on having kids, I feel a little disconnected from this thread. However, the vitriol on this thread rivals some of the discussions about midlevels. Would you have the same attitudes towards someone who took time off during their program for semi elective surgery?

The general attitude towards women that is coming through is also quite disturbing.
It appears we regressed back to Victorian times and no one remembered to change the calendar.
 
Licoricestick said:
As a woman who never plans on having kids, I feel a little disconnected from this thread. However, the vitriol on this thread rivals some of the discussions about midlevels. Would you have the same attitudes towards someone who took time off during their program for semi elective surgery?

The general attitude towards women that is coming through is also quite disturbing.
It appears we regressed back to Victorian times and no one remembered to change the calendar.
Click to expand...

Oh, PLEASE! Give me a f**king break! If it's a boob job, yes. If it's cancer surgery, no. Come on. Some of you people really love the straw man, don't you?

This is not about mysogyny or anything else anti-woman. Don't be so goddamn melodramatic. I hate it when women, who don't hear what they want to hear, start playing the feminist card.

This is about duty to your profession. This is about duty to your colleagues. This is about making choices. This is about not burdening other people with your personal and family issues. NOTHING MORE.

You can substitute any variety of other things, switch it to a man instead of a woman, and then make the same argument.

For example, suppose, as a man, I tell you that I'm going to need to take care of my ailing parent... and that I'm going to take 10 weeks off right now, and then I might sporadically miss work as I'm called back home because something went wrong. This scenario is no different than having a kid.

I have made a choice to put my family above my career, and I would not expect to continue to get equal treatment at that practice because I know I will have put my professional colleagues into a burdensome situation where they cannot completely depend upon me to be there 100% when they need me. Sure, I could make other plans, such as getting a home caregiver, if I felt work was more important. Either that, or I would plan ahead with my colleagues to come back after my time off, work twice as hard, not bitch and complain when people didn't cater to me, and certainly not expect my colleagues to de facto and without question cover for me without my making some kind of professional sacrifice, be it less money, more call, longer partnership track, whatever. I don't expect to eat my cake and still have it too.

So, save all your "men-hate-women" rhetorical bullsh*t... please.

-copro
 
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Let me be perfectly clear...

Have all the babies you want. Take as much time as you need to raise them properly. Continue to practice medicine. Strive to be an expert clinician and parent. Take as much time off as you need to take care of that ailing parent. Take 3 months off to climb Machu Picchu. I don't care. It's your life.

Just do not expect to then come to me and demand equal pay and equal treatment when your colleagues are working more hours, taking more call, doing more cases, etc.

-copro
 
coprolalia said:
The last group - which is the one I think myself and MilitaryMD agree upon - are the "I'm gonna have it all, f*ck anyone who tells me I can't" types. They take excessive time off. Anytime their other kid has the sniffles, they're running home to "take care of him" despite the fact that they have both a European nanny AND a the kid is in hospital-funded daycare. They don't have just one kid during residency, they get pregnant twice. They take the full 12 weeks off (and will threaten a federal lawsuit citing the FMLA act and their right to have that time). And, when they finally do come back, they don't feel it is their burden or obligation to take any additional call or help out their colleagues after making them "step up" to cover things when they were gone. And, if you suggest this, you are an insensitive, uncaring woman-hating man who can't possibly understand how important and meaningful it is to have a baby and to be around during those critical bonding an

-copro
Click to expand...
I'm so glad someone said something about group three. Not only in professional settings, but in every aspect of their lives, their pregnancy becomes their obsession, and without understanding that their pregnancy is not important to others as much as it is to them. There is an absolute sick obsession that borders on mental illness sometimes regarding it. I think the pregnancy reveals the real person, something like how alcohol tends to reveal the real person as well.

Working in a Pharmacy, I had one customer who ws horrible to begin with. A recent Russian immigrant, on welfare and Medicaid, brand new Pathfinder outside. She was always difficult, but became even more so after the pregnancy. One day, she stops in, and her doctor didn't call in her prescription. It was for vitamins. She flipped and started screaming that we should have known she was coming and called her doctor. How would we have known she was coming? Then she wanted us to give her vitamins. What kind? If you want OTC's, get them from the shelf. We can't give these kinds of vitamins without knowing what the doctor wanted. She calls the doc and then makes a weekend emergency call because the office is closed. Long story short, she was wrong, doc told us about how difficult she's making things for him, and she had to wait until monday now so he can verify the chart (it was not his mistake either, she just wanted the stuff right away). So she just ups and starts screaming at us "WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING? CAN'T YOU SEE I"M PREGNANT?!?" It only made me laugh more and every time she came in after that. When she became a mother, then she would just hang around the shopping center and show off her baby and pretend she was the greatest mother and she had a little bundle of joy, but to people who knew her, it was just to get attention.

I just got laughs out of her after that for being such a fool, but not everyone has that luxury in their situations.
 
I have to side with noyac here..

getting pregnant during residency is inconsiderate and bad planning

the program heads and your colleagues who have to cover are nice about it on the surface, but i would really be thinking come on, wtf? seriously? now?

the huge responsibility/planning involved in having children at the same time as extreme work hours and stresses that are overwhelming in and of themselves - not a good situation.

the only circumstances i could understand is if it were completely unplanned or if age is an issue physiologically (>35)

dont you think i want to have a baby with my wife, take a good chunk of time off, focus on family, maybe get a few easy months in addition to time off so basically half a year is fluff? sounds good to me too!
 
Dear OP,

Go ahead and have a child, it's wonderful. In the 9 months of your pregnancy, I am sure the rest of us (your colleagues) will have time to make arrangements to cover your absence after your baby is born. maybe we hire another provider temporarily, maybe that other person with a baby/sick parent/other personal obligation is willing to do a split time/income arrangement with you as well. These things occur all the time. I would be happy to cover some extra call if necessary, and expect nothing in return. Based on the type of people we like hire in our group/residency, I'm sure others would be willing to help out too.

Being a physician and having a family is extremely difficult, and our profession is filled with people who fail to find a balance between the two. Did you happen to see NOVA this past week?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/program.html.
Pretty somber message. It was nice to see that the only physician still married after the 21 years was the anesthesiologist. It is possible to be a good physician/team member and mother/father. But we need to help each other out every once in a while. It sounds like you would be a dedicated mother; good for you. The evening news is filled with those who are not. You will receive more happiness from your family than you ever could from anesthesiology. I would give my life for my son in an instant, without a second thought. Cant say I would do the same for a bottle of sevoflurane.

good luck.
 
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DET0897- I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. My hope is the former.

-copro
 
why would you hope that DET's reply was sarcastic? It bothers you that much to hear someone say they would be willing to help a colleague out? 😕
 
The first part.

And, I can clearly tell you that, if DET0897 is trying to be sincere, that is a truly rare arrangement. So rare, I don't believe it for a minute... at least that there isn't some kind of "quid pro quo" ultimately (less pay, more call, longer partner track... or this is an AMC that DET0897 works for...)

-copro
 
After reading all this bitching on the male part...well it just reinforces my eternal dislike of stupid American feminists - instead of fighting for the right of every 11 year-old girl to have an abortion after her prescribed pill failed without even notifying the parents, they would better serve the humanity and the majority of other American women if they would fight for real rights for women including fair maternity leave time BEFORE and after her labor and finally introducing the thought into the male part of the population that having a baby is not like having a snack and should have some reasonable protection... But unlike the other civilized countries where feminists really cared about females, therefore maternity leave is a rule, those witches will alienate every reasonable soul against even a mentioning of female rights and physiological needs...
 
Are any of you familiar with studies showing that female anesthesiologists (or nurse-anesthetists) are more likely to miscarry? Is there any recent data on it?

One of my attendings (not an anesthesiologist) waxed eloquent about this to me when I answered the obligatory "what do you want to go into" question that you get at the beginning of every rotation. I'm already kind of skeptical about that attending anyway, but I figured, what the heck, I'll check into it. All I can find are articles as old as I am, like some of these:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...d-UJ:scholar.google.com/&output=viewport&pg=1

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...SiUJ:scholar.google.com/&output=viewport&pg=1

They aren't exactly gold-standard RCTs, either. Can anyone tell me if there's anything to this, or has it been discredited, etc. etc.? I can't find any more recent papers on it, which makes me suspect that this attending's info is 35 years behind the times here.
 
To all the women who say that us men don't understand what having a child is like and should be willing to give up some time for "your" child, do you ever stop to think that your colleagues also have lives and also have families?

You shouldn't expect the entire practice/all of your colleagues to suddenly neglect their families and personal lives just to accommodate your own. And if you do, then you must realize you're being selfish.

And even if you think that's the way it should be, that your colleagues should sacrifice their own scarce time for you and be happy about it; well, hopefully by this point in life you realize that there is a large discrepancy between what you "want" and what is reality. Just read what the majority of the experienced physicians have posted in this thread and you have your answer as to what people are likely going to think about your having a child and expecting the world to revolve around it.

You can deny that all you want, but the consequences to your career are yours to reap.

edit: primarily aimed at copro's type 3's. As has already been mentioned, people are going to be more receptive to accommodating someone who is making a true effort to work as hard as they can and be a reliable partner when it comes to making up the time, compared to the person who takes as much time off as possible and doesn't make any effort to take extra call or what not.
 
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I am in private practice and pregnant. It's hard but doable without having to really burden my partners. Of course I did wait until I made partner first. But before I got pregnant I tried to be a very good team player, helpg everyone out and being flexible.

There are some things that would have been easier to deal with in residency. In residency it is easier to avoid the flouro and cement rooms. Also there is someone to give a break every couple hours for when the baby decides to use your bladder as a punching bag. Now I have to give away my total joint rooms (which there are always people more than happy to take these rooms because you can make 60 units and be done by 3). And I have to wear two heavy leads and sit behind the screen during flouro cases. And breaks are so much harder to come by. During the first trimester I just had to barf outside the room in a trashcan.

So my partners are a little annoyed at me probably for asking for all these breaks and tryig to trade myself out of endovascular rooms. But before and after the pregnancy I have always been someone that offers lunch breaks and helped cover for people if they had doctors appointments or kids basketball games.

Just some things to ponder. It's not easy. And waiting until you are done with residency has it's pros and cons. Good luck.
Just some things to idency
 
hoyden said:
really?

*** searching intensely for a pregnant male, "equally sharing the large family burden"***

:laugh:
Click to expand...

didn't search very hard, did you?🙄 it's the first link when you google "pregnant male".

http://www.malepregnancy.com/

and this next one was just a little further down the page:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/13/gayrights-usa-thomas-beatie-pregnant

it's a bit dated, but it's still relevant to discussion.


all that aside, i think copro was referencing the male's increasing responsibility as a parent and caretaker around the house, rather than physically carrying a child to term. it's no longer acceptable in the US for a man to work a job and then come home and not help at all with chores or child-raising.
 
As a woman, a mother and a feminist, I think I'm going to have to side with the men in this debate. If we want to be treated as professional equals regardless of sex then we have to act as equals professionally. Family planning is a personal issue, not a professional right.

It should be common sense, but your colleagues should not be expected or required to sacrifice anything because of your personal choices. Of course we're all human and pregnancy is part of life. At most you should expect a reasonable, flexible bartering of time system. Every extra call taken by a colleague on your behalf should be made up to that person's liking. I don't want to take extra call, sacrificing time away from my family, purely because it is the right thing to do. I will do it with the expectation that when I want that holiday call I'm scheduled for off- you'll take it. Never take more than you give. It's all about equality in the work place.

I do agree with the poster who pointed out that the whole residency system is not very flexible or family friendly. It's a shame, it's not ideal, but that's the way it is. We all knew what were signing up for professionally though.

About the men don't have the same family responsibilities and don't know what it is like to be a mother arguments... again this is a personal issue not a professional one. How you create a family is up to you. Your personal ideals and priorities shouldn't have a professional impact on your colleagues however. You can always make choices in line with your priorities, but obviously every choice has consequences.

If you want to be super mom then make your family planning choices accordingly; do it when you can take time off and not screw your co-workers (AND their families). Take a year off in med school or before residency or before you get a job. It's your choice, but know that having a family while in traning is not compatible with being super parent (mom or dad) and super doc simultaneously.

If you decide to do it anyway, don't expect your colleagues to pick up the professional slack so you can balance your conflicting personal responsibilities more easily. If pumping at work is such a burden, bottle feed. If being pregnant or giving birth is too stressful, use a surrogate or adopt. Make your choices once fully informed and accept the consequences responsibly and graciously.

I'm not saying don't get pregnant while in training, only cautioning 'do so at your own risk'. Take responsibility for the choices you make in your personal life and minimize the impact they have on your professional life.

To the OP, my unexperienced (professionally) advice is that after residency, before starting a practice sounds like a great time to take some personal time off for your family. I wouldn't expect that to negatively effect your job prospects. It seems like a personally and professionally sound decision. Good luck.
 
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ohio23 said:
As a woman, a mother and a feminist, I think I'm going to have to side with the men in this debate. If we want to be treated as professional equals regardless of sex then we have to act as equals professionally. Family planning is a personal issue, not a professional right.

It should be common sense, but your colleagues should not be expected or required to sacrifice anything because of your personal choices. Of course we're all human and pregnancy is part of life. At most you should expect a reasonable, flexible bartering of time system. Every extra call taken by a colleague on your behalf should be made up to that person's liking. I don't want to take extra call, sacrificing time away from my family, purely because it is the right thing to do. I will do it with the expectation that when I want that holiday call I'm scheduled for off- you'll take it. Never take more than you give. It's all about equality in the work place.

I do agree with the poster who pointed out that the whole residency system is not very flexible or family friendly. It's a shame, it's not ideal, but that's the way it is. We all knew what were signing up for professionally though.

About the men don't have the same family responsibilities and don't know what it is like to be a mother arguments... again this is a personal issue not a professional one. How you create a family is up to you. Your personal ideals and priorities shouldn't have a professional impact on your colleagues however. You can always make choices in line with your priorities, but obviously every choice has consequences.

If you want to be super mom then make your family planning choices accordingly; do it when you can take time off and not screw your co-workers (AND their families). Take a year off in med school or before residency or before you get a job. It's your choice, but know that having a family while in traning is not compatible with being super parent (mom or dad) and super doc simultaneously.

If you decide to do it anyway, don't expect your colleagues to pick up the professional slack so you can balance your conflicting personal responsibilities more easily. If pumping at work is such a burden, bottle feed. If being pregnant or giving birth is too stressful, use a surrogate or adopt. Make your choices once fully informed and accept the consequences responsibly and graciously.

I'm not saying don't get pregnant while in training, only cautioning 'do so at your own risk'. Take responsibility for the choices you make in your personal life and minimize the impact they have on your professional life.

To the OP, my unexperienced (professionally) advice is that after residency, before starting a practice sounds like a great time to take some personal time off for your family. I wouldn't expect that to negatively effect your job prospects. It seems like a personally and professionally sound decision. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Do you have a job? Do you want one? You're hired.
 
Laurel123 said:
I am in private practice and pregnant. It's hard but doable without having to really burden my partners. Of course I did wait until I made partner first. But before I got pregnant I tried to be a very good team player, helpg everyone out and being flexible.

There are some things that would have been easier to deal with in residency. In residency it is easier to avoid the flouro and cement rooms. Also there is someone to give a break every couple hours for when the baby decides to use your bladder as a punching bag. Now I have to give away my total joint rooms (which there are always people more than happy to take these rooms because you can make 60 units and be done by 3). And I have to wear two heavy leads and sit behind the screen during flouro cases. And breaks are so much harder to come by. During the first trimester I just had to barf outside the room in a trashcan.

So my partners are a little annoyed at me probably for asking for all these breaks and tryig to trade myself out of endovascular rooms. But before and after the pregnancy I have always been someone that offers lunch breaks and helped cover for people if they had doctors appointments or kids basketball games.

Just some things to ponder. It's not easy. And waiting until you are done with residency has it's pros and cons. Good luck.
Just some things to idency
Click to expand...
I don't know, but I read the whole post a couple times and it contradicts the bold-faced portion. You might have been a team player before, but you are burdening your co-workers now, along with the fact that it's likely sugar-coated, not out of malice, but because you see the situation from your own eyes and rationalize it for yourself.
 
slight365 said:
I don't know, but I read the whole post a couple times and it contradicts the bold-faced portion. You might have been a team player before, but you are burdening your co-workers now, along with the fact that it's likely sugar-coated, not out of malice, but because you see the situation from your own eyes and rationalize it for yourself.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is no ideal time to have kids as an anesthesiologist. So it appears the only alternative is no working moms in anesthesia, and I'm sure many of you would be happy with that. But you'd be missing out on a lot of good anesthesiologists. I was pregnant once in residency, once in practice (academic). Granted, academics makes it a bit easier, but I more than pull my weight. There are slackers in both genders, and I have no desire to work with them either.
 
I will say that I have seen many people who do fine with having kids during residency and practice. I think the bigger the group, the less burden it is on each individual. Obviously, if you are in a group of 3 or 4, the burden might be significant on the partners. Same with a small residency group. If it is a large group or residency, it would probably hardly be noticed as long as the person was fair about it.
Maybe I have been lucky, but most of the females I have dealt with were the ones who worked hard throughout and took reasonable time off. The incentive is that you can finish residency on time with your peer group if you return at a reasonable time (This becomes important when applying for fellowships that would expect you to be available in July).
My experience is that it is rare to find someone who is overtly abusive of the situation. The biggest issue during residency is the amount of cases which use fluoro extensively. Missing those cases can impact your experience. Also, if your pregnancy coincides with another's, the impact is doubled (obviously) and becomes more problematic.
I also agree with PGY-13 that there are plenty of male (or female) slackers out there as well that can be much more devastating to a group than dealing with a pregnancy. I think that most residencies and group practices are able to effectively deal with a pregnant colleague without too much difficulty. Both sides should be respectful of the other's needs. I think this is how it works most of the time.
 
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