Prelim-surgery intern year for non-surgery resident?

[chef]

i keep hearing that prelim-surgery spots are 'given away' since no one wants them.. especially at big academic institutions. are prelim-surgery intern spots generally reserved for those going into a surgical subspecialty, or can someone going into non-surgical field (anesthesia, rads, ophthy, derm, etc) still do a prelim-surgery year?

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[gutonc]

i keep hearing that prelim-surgery spots are 'given away' since no one wants them.. especially at big academic institutions. are prelim-surgery intern spots generally reserved for those going into a surgical subspecialty, or can someone going into non-surgical field (anesthesia, rads, ophthy, derm, etc) still do a prelim-surgery year?

Yes, anyone certainly can do a prelim surg year. Why anyone who could get a ROAD spot would want to do one is beyond me. I can see it being useful in Gas or Ophtho. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for a world of unnecessary pain.

 

[Winged Scapula]

yes, anyone certainly can do a prelim surg year. Why anyone who could get a road spot would want to do one is beyond me. I can see it being useful in gas or ophtho. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for a world of unnecessary pain.

qft.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

qft.

What makes a surgery intern year so much more malignant than a medicine intern year? I was under the impression that both have rough hours. You don't do (m)any surgeries in intern year, do you? Is it just the more malignant personalities that make it worse?

 

[soulofmpatel]

What makes a surgery intern year so much more malignant than a medicine intern year? I was under the impression that both have rough hours. You don't do (m)any surgeries in intern year, do you? Is it just the more malignant personalities that make it worse?

The hours are worse. The people are worse. You learn less (unless you're going into a surgical field or surgery-related field). I would rather bat with Randy Johnson pitching and using my penis as a bat than do a general surgery internship.

 

[Rendar5]

I would think it might actually be useful for optho (a mixed surgical field like ENT, Uro, and Gyn) and anaesthesia (since you tend to work with surgical patients). For the others, I don't see why you would care which one you would do and therefore pick whichever one is easier, unless you absolutely absolutely absolutely hate hate hate hate hate medicine rounding (like one of my friends does)

 

[Winged Scapula]

What makes a surgery intern year so much more malignant than a medicine intern year? I was under the impression that both have rough hours. You don't do (m)any surgeries in intern year, do you? Is it just the more malignant personalities that make it worse?

As above:

- hours are worse generally than Prelim IM
- Prelims not going into Surgery generally get very little teaching in comparison to the Categoricals
- personalities can be worse
- most people like the OR, even non-surgeons, so the drudgery of floor work, call, etc. without the occasional fun of the OR gets to many people
- increased popularity of GS so other Prelims are fighting for a position, which can make it more difficult to "shine"
- depending on the program, hours are less predictable (ie, there may be no set sign out time because of OR schedules, traumas, etc.)
- may have to take in-training exam, which is not fun to study for if you are not going into surgery

Its probably not as bad as it once was before work hour restrictions when the hours were exceedingly longer for everyone.

 

[gutonc]

I would think it might actually be useful for optho (a mixed surgical field like ENT, Uro, and Gyn) and anaesthesia (since you tend to work with surgical patients). For the others, I don't see why you would care which one you would do and therefore pick whichever one is easier, unless you absolutely absolutely absolutely hate hate hate hate hate medicine rounding (like one of my friends does)

I ran across a Gen Surg intern like this. Prelim for rads. She decided on GS for her prelim year because "my medicine clerkship attending liked to talk too much." Basically signed up for a year of punishment because of one, 6 week experience. On her 2nd day, she up and left in the middle of discharging a patient because "I'm at 30 hours, I need to go" and left her chief to finish it. It's going to be a long year for her.

 

[chef]

I ran across a Gen Surg intern like this. Prelim for rads. She decided on GS for her prelim year because "my medicine clerkship attending liked to talk too much." Basically signed up for a year of punishment because of one, 6 week experience. On her 2nd day, she up and left in the middle of discharging a patient because "I'm at 30 hours, I need to go" and left her chief to finish it. It's going to be a long year for her.

how is this possible if the 80hr/wk rule is being enforced? every IM intern i've met worked 70+hrs/wk. you guys are all making it sound like prelim surg interns are working 140+.

 

[Winged Scapula]

how is this possible if the 80hr/wk rule is being enforced? every IM intern i've met worked 70+hrs/wk. you guys are all making it sound like prelim surg interns are working 140+.

Having the rule and enforcing it are two ENTIRELY different things. See the very timely thread in this forum just posted today about programs requiring residents to lie about their hours. I know mine did.

While programs may not regularly work interns, in any specialty, 140+ hrs per week anymore, believe me, many many interns (even IM ones) work more than 80 hrs per week. The hours in prelim surgery don't have to be worse than IM to make the year more miserable.

But go ahead and do it...I won't even say I told you so when you start posting about how miserable the year is and how mean we are to you.

 

[Law2Doc]

how is this possible if the 80hr/wk rule is being enforced? every IM intern i've met worked 70+hrs/wk. you guys are all making it sound like prelim surg interns are working 140+.

See WSs post above. The 80 hour requirement is not a per week rule, but rather an average, so you can work many weeks over that limit and still stay within the rules, so long as things like vacation days are spread strategically. But as mentioned, compliance is not universal. In many cases the rules and expectations differ. You will be expected to sign in and out at times that theoretically fit within the rules. But for patient care and professional survival reasons, you may not be able to blow out of there at sign out many or even most days, and a lot of programs turn a blind eye to this. And if asked, most residents will report having worked 80 hours, not because their program overtly asked them to, but out of a sense of being a good team player. You don't want to be the guy who put the program on probation, and your co-residents certainly have the power to make your life bad if you jeapordize their careers in this way.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

See WSs post above. The 80 hour requirement is not a per week rule, but rather an average, so you can work many weeks over that limit and still stay within the rules, so long as things like vacation days are spread strategically. But as mentioned, compliance is not universal. In many cases the rules and expectations differ. You will be expected to sign in and out at times that theoretically fit within the rules. But for patient care and professional survival reasons, you may not be able to blow out of there at sign out many or even most days, and a lot of programs turn a blind eye to this. And if asked, most residents will report having worked 80 hours, not because their program overtly asked them to, but out of a sense of being a good team player. You don't want to be the guy who put the program on probation, and your co-residents certainly have the power to make your life bad if you jeapordize their careers in this way.

Do residents have ANY recourse? I feel like this 80 hr. problem won't be solved until there are hidden cameras throughout the hospital monitoring what's going on.

 

[Rendar5]

I also beleive the 80 hour rules do not take into account patient signout?

 

[Law2Doc]

how is this possible if the 80hr/wk rule is being enforced? every IM intern i've met worked 70+hrs/wk. you guys are all making it sound like prelim surg interns are working 140+.

I also beleive the 80 hour rules do not take into account patient signout?

Sure they do. Which is why most programs schedule an overlap of day and night shifts. The rule contemplates you actually leaving the hospital by the 80 hour limitation, averaged over a month. If your program does 80 hours plus another 5 in signouts each week on average, it is violating the rules.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yep, sign-out, mandatory conferences, etc. all count toward the hours. Used to love those mandatory conferences late in the afternoon requiring post-call residents to come back in.