Premed seeking application advice

[Shredder]

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I'm interested in pathology, and maybe a fellowship in molecular or molecular genetic pathology. Should I voice this in my apps/interviews? I want to sound like I have an idea of what I might get into, but I don't want to sound premature. I can't see myself going into any other field though, at least within medicine. I have a pretty strong science and research background and nonexistent volunteering. Definitely not planning on being a touchy feely type of doc, thus no volunteering...do schools resent this, or can I get them to respect it? I'm a little concerned that I may be at the whim of a touchy feely adcom or interviewer

 

[LADoc00]

I'm interested in pathology, and maybe a fellowship in molecular or molecular genetic pathology. Should I voice this in my apps/interviews? I want to sound like I have an idea of what I might get into, but I don't want to sound premature. I can't see myself going into any other field though, at least within medicine. I have a pretty strong science and research background and nonexistent volunteering. Definitely not planning on being a touchy feely type of doc, thus no volunteering...do schools resent this, or can I get them to respect it? I'm a little concerned that I may be at the whim of a touchy feely adcom or interviewer

never voice an interest in pathology to the med school adcom as commonly they have as much love for us as Palestinians have for Isrealis.

 

[Shredder]

makes sense unfortunately...its so unfair though, i have no idea how to start writing a personal statement in light of that. i voiced interest in path to one of my rec writers and i fear she dislikes me now and questions my fitness for medicine (ob gyn go figure). premeds are no better when i say i like medicine but am not too gungho about seeing patients, its like im saying two opposite statements. its quite discouraging actually, to the point where ive begun questioning if im even in the right career track. maybe some of you can infuse some much needed inspiration. what was your mindset and approach at my age (20)?

 

[Harbster]

I'm interested in pathology, and maybe a fellowship in molecular or molecular genetic pathology. Should I voice this in my apps/interviews? I want to sound like I have an idea of what I might get into, but I don't want to sound premature. I can't see myself going into any other field though, at least within medicine. I have a pretty strong science and research background and nonexistent volunteering. Definitely not planning on being a touchy feely type of doc, thus no volunteering...do schools resent this, or can I get them to respect it? I'm a little concerned that I may be at the whim of a touchy feely adcom or interviewer

Make sure to tell them that you really are interested in Forensics since you were inspired by your favorite t.v. show CSI...if that doesn't work out, admit you'd gladly accept a fellowship in Dermpath since you are a lazy piece of **** that loves the loot!

 

[yaah]

I wasn't interested in path when I was applying so I guess it's not relevant. I knew about it and thought about it, but always thought I wanted to see patients. I was clearly wrong about the latter.

Unfortunately, I do think schools tend to emphasize volunteering WAY MORE than they should. There are different kinds of volunteering - some people basically dedicate their lives to it, while the vast majority pick up trash or check names off at a soup kitchen or a blood drive. It shouldn't matter - if I was on an adcom I wouldn't give a crap if someone volunteered unless it was something they were truly interested in and it impacted their life.

Are you interested in MD/PhD programs or just straight MD? You can definitely get into med school without being touchy feely, because clearly there are plenty of people like this in med school - often they are preferable to the overly touchy feely individuals who are simply phony.

 

[deschutes]

Shredder,

There is a great deal of "touchy-feely" that you will go through in 4 years of med school.

From the standpoint of getting into pathology, different people feel differently about this, but if I may quote a professor I respect -

There is no substitute for "being there". It will also help you later in communicating with clinicians if you have learnt to speak the language that is spoken on the frontlines.​

A lot of people enter med school with an idea of what they want to do, but I think the numbers are in the ballpark of 2/3rds of them changing their minds by the time residency rolls around.

Pathology being the "bridge" between the clinical and basic sciences, is a little different in that sense.

I daresay most med schools do not put out scientists as a primary objective. Their responsibility is to graduate competent doctors, no matter what the field and whether or not you ever see a patient again. Schools have standards to maintain, and since all of us are potential patients it is not difficult to see why.

I would still go for med school if it is what you are interested in - but make sure that it IS what you are interested in.

To that end, I would spend a little more time in the hospital and clinic environment (and I don't mean the path dept! 😉 ) - it is quite different from a research lab.

You could certainly state that you are thinking of pathology, but that you are open to other fields of medicine as well. (And you would have to be, if you were considering spending 2 years of your life in training on the wards.)

 

[Shredder]

Shredder,

There is a great deal of "touchy-feely" that you will go through in 4 years of med school.

From the standpoint of getting into pathology, different people feel differently about this, but if I may quote a professor I respect -

There is no substitute for "being there". It will also help you later in communicating with clinicians if you have learnt to speak the language that is spoken on the frontlines.​

A lot of people enter med school with an idea of what they want to do, but I think the numbers are in the ballpark of 2/3rds of them changing their minds by the time residency rolls around.

Pathology being the "bridge" between the clinical and basic sciences, is a little different in that sense.

I daresay most med schools do not put out scientists as a primary objective. Their responsibility is to graduate competent doctors, no matter what the field and whether or not you ever see a patient again. Schools have standards to maintain, and since all of us are potential patients it is not difficult to see why.

I would still go for med school if it is what you are interested in - but make sure that it IS what you are interested in.

To that end, I would spend a little more time in the hospital and clinic environment (and I don't mean the path dept! 😉 ) - it is quite different from a research lab.

You could certainly state that you are thinking of pathology, but that you are open to other fields of medicine as well. (And you would have to be, if you were considering spending 2 years of your life in training on the wards.)

yeah, my bro's in rads and hes also said to stay open minded. i try to, but path just seems more interesting than other fields right now, i like the bridge aspect. ive thought about md phd programs in the past, but i like business as well and plan on applying for md/mba programs, so ill have to reconcile all the interests somehow. i feel it can be done, so i dont want to give anything up. i figure a trained md is better at research than a phd is at business.

as a doctor i understand that i should have the capability for being there if needed, just like you must be able to console crying or downtrodden friends now and then, but doing that regularly sounds unappealing. without being there at all one would be better suited for a research career, but i do like the aspect of being a "doctor's doctor" and consulting with doctors to form game plans to save lives. ive always found basic sciences too abstract to have much meaning for me.

ive done a few weekly rounds in many specialties in a summer program--i think all of the ones first year med students do. i enjoyed ICU the most since most patients were incapable of much communication yet the docs went around as a team and spoke with each other to solve problems. it was hardly necessary to dumb down language or give pats on the back, but lives were being saved. at this point i find other specialties unique and necessary in their own rights, but i try to plan ahead and have something to work toward.

 

[yaah]

I wish there were more people who went into medicine with a strong interest in the science of medicine as their primary motivation. There is certainly a place for those who are caring and good at interpersonal relations, but this isn't everything! Of course, there are many many students who go into medicine who can be good in both of these areas.

This new breed of Über-competitive students, the future Überdoktor, who, as Nietzsche prophesized, represent the highest level of clinical skills, diagnostic acumen, and would be able to diagnose things that mere mortals would shudder at even having to pronounce, while at the same time being able to share emotionally with the patient their deepest fears and concerns. The mere bumbling hordes of past physicians will tremble at the awe inspiring capabilities of the Überdoktor, who of course will also be physically attractive and a superior athlete.

 

[deschutes]

the future Überdoktor, who, as Nietzsche prophesized, represent the highest level of clinical skills, diagnostic acumen ...while at the same time being able to share emotionally with the patient their deepest fears and concerns.

For some reason, this exaltation strikes me as being somewhat depressing...

Perhaps it is the lack of breakfast.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

makes sense unfortunately...its so unfair though, i have no idea how to start writing a personal statement in light of that. i voiced interest in path to one of my rec writers and i fear she dislikes me now and questions my fitness for medicine (ob gyn go figure). premeds are no better when i say i like medicine but am not too gungho about seeing patients, its like im saying two opposite statements. its quite discouraging actually, to the point where ive begun questioning if im even in the right career track. maybe some of you can infuse some much needed inspiration. what was your mindset and approach at my age (20)?

dude, screw honesty. applications and interviews are all about you telling the adcoms what they want to hear. feed them bullsh*t. make them shed a few tears. make them love you. then when you get into med school, rip off your mask and shout, "fooled ya suckas!"

seriously though, it's like all those folks who do all this community service in college and then suddenly they get into med school and IT ALL STOPS! at least you're keeping it real. 👍

addendum: if you are interested in pursuing the md/phd track, seriously consider it. from reading your initial post, i get the impression that you are more science/research oriented rather than catering to touchy-feely bullsh*t.

 

[quant]

if you are interested in pursuing the md/phd track, seriously consider it. from reading your initial post, i get the impression that you are more science/research oriented rather than catering to touchy-feely bullsh*t.

I agree with andy s advice and impressions...

I struggled with the bull**** of being a *real* doctor for almost 2 years......it took me 2 years of suffering through int medicine to realise what i really wanted to do.....

Being happy with what you want to do is the thing of utmost importance....rest all is secondary.....

 

[b&ierstiefel]

stop agreeing with me quant!

 

[quant]

stop agreeing with me quant!

ok i disagree with you.............

 

[Mr. Plow]

Your job is to get admitted. Think of your personal statement as a promotional brochure. You are free to invent all kinds of reasons why you are going to med school -- who is going to contradict you? You just need to have a credible and appealing story. I wouldn't outright lie, but there is nothing wrong with shading things in your favor. Also, treat it like a job interview -- be selective about the information you reveal (e.g., you don't want to enter clinical medicine). They don't have a need or a right to know everything about you.

I totally agree. Getting into medical school has become such a political process, especially at my home school where being an in-state applicant and having XY chromosomes are two knocks against you. Just tell 'em what they want to hear (e.g. you plan to run a free clinic to serve the poor and destitute and in your spare time you plan to travel to africa and asia to single-handedly save the world from poverty and disease). The last thing they want to hear about is your science background, it seems, so keep it minimal. Volunteer to work at some grungy primary care clinic and ask yourself if you can fake enjoying that for four years.

Once you get in to med school you'll have some more hurdles to jump, but eventually you can start being true to your interests/aspirations and forget about that touchy-feely garbage, although that may not be until 4th year or longer. Med school can be a complete annoyance for the majority of your four years if you decide early in your education that clinical medicine is not for you, especially at a school like mine that is constantly shoving primary care down our throats. That's something to keep in mind before you decide to apply.

 

[Shredder]

The last thing they want to hear about is your science background, it seems, so keep it minimal.

Hmm there is a paradox, I hear schools love research and publications in undergrad, and continuing research during and after med school. Maybe uberdoktor is in order.

especially at a school like mine that is constantly shoving primary care down our throats. That's something to keep in mind before you decide to apply.

does this mentality vary among schools?

 

[Harbster]

This new breed of Über-competitive students, the future Überdoktor, who, as Nietzsche prophesized,....capabilities of the Überdoktor.....

What the f*ck are you talking about, Yaah?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

What the f*ck are you talking about, Yaah?

i think he needs his chocolate milk and cake.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Hmm there is a paradox, I hear schools love research and publications in undergrad, and continuing research during and after med school. Maybe uberdoktor is in order.

anyways, back to the topic.

med schools like to hear about research...but it is seen as one of many possible extracurricular activities. if you overplay the research angle too much, they'll just snap back at you and ask, "so why not grad school?" when you are asked this question, you know the interview is not going well and it's pretty much game over. you want to steer the conversation suitably so that this question is never directed at you.

i dunno what the solution is to your situation. but my college life was probably similar to you. i got good grades, good scores, and did tons of research. my community service was extremely minimal. i might have volunteered at a soup kitchen once. i might have volunteered at a children's center maybe once.

translation come interview time: "i was involved in a community service organization where we did a variety of activities. i got to serve food to homeless people and i played games with kids...like 15000 times. it was so awesome. it touched my heart in ways one can never imagine. that's when i knew that i loved people and i was a people person. and that is one of the major reasons why i want the MD in addition to the PhD...yada yada yada...bullsh*t bullsh*t bullsh*t."

catch my drift, young paduwan?

 

[deschutes]

catch my drift, young paduwan?

Nice. Clearly I was much too naive and idealistic when I applied to med school!

Does hospital shadowing have the same weightage as volunteer work?

 

[Shredder]

awesome...you guys give great practical advice, its something thats hard to come across elsewhere, especially among the sea of premeds and advisors surrounding me. i dont think shadowing has the same effect, it doesnt convey the love for people and humanitarian aspect and whatnot.

the grad school question is something ive definitely encountered...your comeback looks very viable, ill keep it in mind. its easier and im sure more effective than trying to justify deeper feelings.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

ha! i wonder what the responses would have been if you posted this thread in pre-allo

 

[yaah]

ha! i wonder what the responses would have been if you posted this thread in pre-allo

1) Someone would have brought up top 10 schools
2) Someone would have brought up competitive residencies
3) Someone would have combined #1 and #2 and say that to get #2 you need to go to #1

 

[b&ierstiefel]

1) Someone would have brought up top 10 schools
2) Someone would have brought up competitive residencies
3) Someone would have combined #1 and #2 and say that to get #2 you need to go to #1

wow, that was deep.

let's add 4) Some self-righteous jackass would say, "people like you make it harder for stupid but nice people like me to getting into med school!"

 

[Shredder]

Noteworthy pre-allo experience:

Shredder: it doesnt sound terribly appealing to volunteer to wheelchair around decrepit patients all day and schmooze with them

Response: 😱 key word "decrepit". consider an MBA and wall street, creep.

I've learned to be watchful of what is said there. But it can be fun sometimes.

 

[Mr. Plow]

Noteworthy pre-allo experience:

Shredder: it doesnt sound terribly appealing to volunteer to wheelchair around decrepit patients all day and schmooze with them

Response: 😱 key word "decrepit". consider an MBA and wall street, creep.

I've learned to be watchful of what is said there. But it can be fun sometimes.

That's probably why those folks are "pre-allo" and not "allo". Fortunately, it takes more than just being a good samaritan to get into medical school. Although, reflecting on the enrollment in my school, I sometimes wonder.

Don't waste your time in the pre-allo forum. If you have questions, ask people who know, like us.

 

[yaah]

Yeah, it's true. If you want definitive advice on something, better ask a premed. Because they know everything. It's like the whole med school "ranking" thing - it only matters to premeds and people on admissions committees who know that a higher ranking will get more premeds to apply to their school.

 

[Mike4284m]

translation come interview time: "i was involved in a community service organization where we did a variety of activities. i got to serve food to homeless people and i played games with kids...like 15000 times. it was so awesome. it touched my heart in ways one can never imagine. that's when i knew that i loved people and i was a people person. and that is one of the major reasons why i want the MD in addition to the PhD...yada yada yada...bullsh*t bullsh*t bullsh*t."

And to think my pre-med advisor questioned my interest in path because paths have no charisma

 

[b&ierstiefel]

And to think my pre-med advisor questioned my interest in path because paths have no charisma

👍 👍

charisma can be faked!

i'm livin a lie.

 

[bananaface]

👍 👍

charisma can be faked!

i'm livin a lie.

You only think you are!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You only think you are!

you callin' me an ass? ok you got me. i am an ass.

 

[yaah]

My middle name is charisma.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

My middle name is charisma.

yeah and my middle name is charity.

...and 14 orangutans just flew out of harbster's ass.

 

[bananaface]

So, AndycharityMilonkais works. But yaah does not have a last name. This is confusing.

Someone get Harbster some Nupercainal!

 

[anashpiano]

First let me say that I am so glad that this thread got started -- Shredder, I have very similar previous science experience and feelings about necessarily working directly with patients, which led me to a real interest in pathology. (I'm also a BME. Yeehah!)

The last thing they want to hear about is your science background, it seems, so keep it minimal.

Since it was brought up -- does the same apply to MD/PhD applications? I have a pretty strong research background, and I'm developing my clinical experience... but I would hope a "Physician-Scientist" program would be able to appreciate the science side of things. (I'm starting to feel like they're just plain impossible to please 😱 ) Any thoughts?

 

[beary]

Since it was brought up -- does the same apply to MD/PhD applications? I have a pretty strong research background, and I'm developing my clinical experience... but I would hope a "Physician-Scientist" program would be able to appreciate the science side of things. (I'm starting to feel like they're just plain impossible to please 😱 ) Any thoughts?

I think it is very important to emphasize your interest in basic science in your MD/PhD applications - actually it is probably the most important thing. They are looking for people with aptitude and interest in research, and that sounds just like you! Good luck!

 

[Shredder]

med schools like to hear about research...but it is seen as one of many possible extracurricular activities. if you overplay the research angle too much, they'll just snap back at you and ask, "so why not grad school?" when you are asked this question, you know the interview is not going well and it's pretty much game over. you want to steer the conversation suitably so that this question is never directed at you.

this is where the waters get murky. try the mdphd forum

 

[anashpiano]

I know this is mostly unrelated to the main thread... but I'm not sure it's big enough for a new one 😛 . Just a point of confusion:

I got the impression that, as long as one is going through application for the MD/PhD program, it is doesn't hurt to additionally apply for the MD. It also seems that, for a number of the programs, one must be separately accepted into the associated medical school even before consideration in the combination degree. But, if you indicate a strong interest in research during your application/interview, isn't that usually just suicide for the straight MD track? It seems like a direct conflict somehow.

 

[Shredder]

ive thought about saying "i need to see my research in action to keep me going" or something like that. or "i love people and research and i need both, bottom line"

 

[b&ierstiefel]

First let me say that I am so glad that this thread got started -- Shredder, I have very similar previous science experience and feelings about necessarily working directly with patients, which led me to a real interest in pathology. (I'm also a BME. Yeehah!)


Since it was brought up -- does the same apply to MD/PhD applications? I have a pretty strong research background, and I'm developing my clinical experience... but I would hope a "Physician-Scientist" program would be able to appreciate the science side of things. (I'm starting to feel like they're just plain impossible to please 😱 ) Any thoughts?

Early in the application process to MD/PhD programs, you need to keep it balanced. Not only should you stress that your goal is to become a competent scientist but also you should let it be know that becoming a compassionate physician is important. Granted, this can be total lip service. When you interview with the MD folks, they seek balance. When you interview with the MD/PhD folks, feel free to talk all the science you want.

Usually, when you apply to MD/PhD, you will have a separate set of interviews--one for the medical school and one for the MD/PhD program. Keep that in perspective when you engage in conversations with each party. Your goal, with respect with the medical schools, is to achieve a wait-list status at least. If you're rejected by the medical school, you have no chance at MD/PhD. However, if you're waitlisted by the medical school then it's up to the MD/PhD admissions committee. They have the power to trump the med school--if the med school wait-lists you and the MD/PhD program accepts you, you're in! It doesn't matter if you're at the bottom of the wait-list at the medical school. So just tell the med school what they wanna hear and get on the wait-list. The MD/PhD interviews will be the most
important ones for you.

Personal experience: I was wait-listed by every single med school I interviewed at. But I didn't care. Cuz for me, the verdict of the MD/PhD programs was what mattered most. When the 5 out of the 11 MD/PhD programs accepted me, those 5 med schools had to let me in. So for the purposes of the AMCAS and the MD programs, just do enough to get your foot in the door (i.e., wait-list). In that respect, the MD/PhD is the backdoor into medical school.

 

[bananaface]

this is where the waters get murky. try the mdphd forum

He IS an MD/PhD. 😉

 

[b&ierstiefel]

ive thought about saying "i need to see my research in action to keep me going" or something like that. or "i love people and research and i need both, bottom line"

whatever floats your boat. just feed the med schools the bullsh*t they wanna hear.

I've commented this at length in the MSTP forum.

 

[Shredder]

i know but there one would be surrounded by mdphds or aspiring ones. i guess one sage is better than many...non sages?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

i know but there one would be surrounded by mdphds or aspiring ones. i guess one sage is better than many...non sages?

well, isn't that where you're heading? for your purposes, the MSTP forum would more relevant for you 🙂

 

[LADoc00]

I want to start a MSTP drop out forum, we can sit around and laugh at all our old friends who are just NOW graduating from med school while we are attendings.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I want to start a MSTP drop out forum, we can sit around and laugh at all our old friends who are just NOW graduating from med school while we are attendings.

kiss my ass.

 

[LADoc00]

kiss my ass.

I just talked to people I knew from my short lived MSTP days, they called all excited about their matches for residency...I couldnt stop laughing for hours! Its funny, they all seem like they were stasis for 5 years or so, we have nothing in common now. They are too poor to hang out with me.

 

[bananaface]

You should ask yaah to present the idea of an MTSP dropout forum.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I just talked to people I knew from my short lived MSTP days, they called all excited about their matches for residency...I couldnt stop laughing for hours! Its funny, they all seem like they were stasis for 5 years or so, we have nothing in common now. They are too poor to hang out with me.

whatever...they're not in debt. i'm sure they're pretty thrilled about that.

 

[LADoc00]

whatever...they're not in debt. i'm sure they're pretty thrilled about that.

Dude, dont get all sad (dabs tears), we can still be friends, heck maybe Ill even hire you to gross stuff in and do all the autopsies one day. 🙂

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Dude, dont get all sad (dabs tears), we can still be friends, heck maybe Ill even hire you to gross stuff in and do all the autopsies one day. 🙂

goddamn...will you STFU already?