Premedical Committees

[jkhamlin]

Does anyone know how much influence premed committees at undergrad universities really have? I didn't get a very good recommendation from mine and there are some facts that shine a great amount of question over their statements.

My advisor seems to think it is no big deal, but he gets his paycheck signed by the same person if you know what I mean.

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[medic170]

Does anyone know how much influence premed committees at undergrad universities really have? I didn't get a very good recommendation from mine and there are some facts that shine a great amount of question over their statements.

My advisor seems to think it is no big deal, but he gets his paycheck signed by the same person if you know what I mean.

It probably depends on the school and the committees reputation. Many schools, such as mine, do not even have these committees, so I would not think they matter to much as long as you have other outstanding LOR's.

Why did they not give you a good rec? Did you make some mistakes in undergrad? Maybe some specifics could help us help you.

 

[docbill]

It probably depends on the school and the committees reputation. Many schools, such as mine, do not even have these committees, so I would not think they matter to much as long as you have other outstanding LOR's.

Why did they not give you a good rec? Did you make some mistakes in undergrad? Maybe some specifics could help us help you.

Yes medic..
What is this BS!

"We must not look to government to solve our problems, government is the problem! - Ronald Reagan "

This is something coming from a Republicant like yourself... I though all you do is let the government SO CALLED "SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS".

Oh sorry ..

OP... I did not use a premed committee... we don't have that at my school.
Some places may accept 3 LOR in lieu of Prem committee
.

 

[jkhamlin]

It probably depends on the school and the committees reputation. Many schools, such as mine, do not even have these committees, so I would not think they matter to much as long as you have other outstanding LOR's.

Why did they not give you a good rec? Did you make some mistakes in undergrad? Maybe some specifics could help us help you.

Sorry that this is a bit lengthy.

I have about 2 semesters worth of withdrawal F's from 10 years ago that really drag down my GPA, but they didn't seem too worried about that.

They gave me a "Recommended with reservations" their second lowest. Here are their reservations:
#1. Very limited shadowing experiences.
#2. Very little articulated passion for a career as a physician.
#3. Not as aware as most students about the variety of health care opportunities available and how different health care providers work with one another.

I asked the committee chair this: "Could you provide me with a little more quantitative reason behind each so that I can understand how you reached those conclusions? For example: how much shadowing experience would be adequate? Also, I believe I have a superior awareness of the health care opportunities available as compared to other students; would you say that it was like #2 in that I did not articulate this well, or do other students actually shadow a number of different professions?"

Here is her nebulous answer: "Shadowing experiences - enough to give you examples that you can use that will give evidence of passion, enough to show you how various health care providers work together to help people, enough to show you that this is the right career for you. (There is no way to quantify this.) Awareness of health care opportunities may be an articulation issue."

Here are the reasons that their reservations were questionable (respectively)(they were aware of all of this as it was in my application for committee review in one form or another):

1. Shadowed over 14 physicians for more than 81 hours worth of experience.
2. I have demonstrated that I have a lifelong commitment to becoming a physician. I idolized it as a child, I developed a fascination with it that has lasted to this day. I returned to college 7 years after failure and attempts at other careers for the sole purpose of getting into medical school and have not changed my mind from entering freshman 12 years ago to senior and about to graduate now. I have persisted in the face of adversity over the last 3½ years to accomplish respectable grades and outside recognitions in two different majors. I have chosen to work in the medical field over the last 3½ years despite the fact that I could make more money elsewhere, I believe that it is very important to my healthcare education. I chose to apply only to Osteopathic colleges precisely because of my passion for medicine; I believe that the advantages for myself and my patients gained from osteopathy far outweigh the only two disadvantages which are prestige and money.
3. As a pharmacy technician, I work with many other health care providers to provide patient care including but not limited to: other pharmacy techs, pharmacists, educators, physicians, nurses, nurse aids, administrative staff, nutritionists and dieticians, surgery techs, paramedics, etc. I am aware of whom they are and what roles they fill in patient care. I have to answer their questions. I get to learn from them.

 

[medic170]

Yes medic..
What is this BS!

"We must not look to government to solve our problems, government is the problem! - Ronald Reagan "

This is something coming from a Republicant like yourself... I though all you do is let the government SO CALLED "SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS".

Oh sorry ..

OP... I did not use a premed committee... we don't have that at my school.
Some places may accept 3 LOR in lieu of Prem committee
.

I think you responded to the wrong post Bill Anyway, you got that confused, that is the Democrats that want big government to solve all the problems. Anyway, just having some fun with you buddy.

 

[medic170]

Sorry that this is a bit lengthy.

I have about 2 semesters worth of withdrawal F's from 10 years ago that really drag down my GPA, but they didn't seem too worried about that.

They gave me a "Recommended with reservations" their second lowest. Here are their reservations:
#1. Very limited shadowing experiences.
#2. Very little articulated passion for a career as a physician.
#3. Not as aware as most students about the variety of health care opportunities available and how different health care providers work with one another.

I asked the committee chair this: "Could you provide me with a little more quantitative reason behind each so that I can understand how you reached those conclusions? For example: how much shadowing experience would be adequate? Also, I believe I have a superior awareness of the health care opportunities available as compared to other students; would you say that it was like #2 in that I did not articulate this well, or do other students actually shadow a number of different professions?"

Here is her nebulous answer: "Shadowing experiences - enough to give you examples that you can use that will give evidence of passion, enough to show you how various health care providers work together to help people, enough to show you that this is the right career for you. (There is no way to quantify this.) Awareness of health care opportunities may be an articulation issue."

Here are the reasons that their reservations were questionable (respectively)(they were aware of all of this as it was in my application for committee review in one form or another):

1. Shadowed over 14 physicians for more than 81 hours worth of experience.
2. I have demonstrated that I have a lifelong commitment to becoming a physician. I idolized it as a child, I developed a fascination with it that has lasted to this day. I returned to college 7 years after failure and attempts at other careers for the sole purpose of getting into medical school and have not changed my mind from entering freshman 12 years ago to senior and about to graduate now. I have persisted in the face of adversity over the last 3½ years to accomplish respectable grades and outside recognitions in two different majors. I have chosen to work in the medical field over the last 3½ years despite the fact that I could make more money elsewhere, I believe that it is very important to my healthcare education. I chose to apply only to Osteopathic colleges precisely because of my passion for medicine; I believe that the advantages for myself and my patients gained from osteopathy far outweigh the only two disadvantages which are prestige and money.
3. As a pharmacy technician, I work with many other health care providers to provide patient care including but not limited to: other pharmacy techs, pharmacists, educators, physicians, nurses, nurse aids, administrative staff, nutritionists and dieticians, surgery techs, paramedics, etc. I am aware of whom they are and what roles they fill in patient care. I have to answer their questions. I get to learn from them.

Just make sure you have a good physician LOR and talk about your medical experiences and I think that will trump that strange committee of yours.

 

[docbill]

I think you responded to the wrong post Bill Anyway, you got that confused, that is the Democrats that want big government to solve all the problems. Anyway, just having some fun with you buddy.

well we agree to disagree... REGAN was a republicant... but democrat on the inside.

I know.. I am pushing your buttons tooo... no hard feelings. We have no one else to pick on.

 

[medic170]

REGAN was a republicant... but democrat on the inside.

.

those are fightin words. Never defame the great and powerful President readan..that just goes too far

 

[jules0328]

Wait, so let me get this straight, this stupid pre med committee recommended you with reservations, even though you have 81 hours of shadowing and you explained to them your fascination with the medical profession? I dont mean to be an instigator about your situation, but that committee almost seems like they have a personal vendetta against you.

Who are they to tell you who you should be? Look, I think that what one poster explained before makes a lot of sense, most schools will accept three letters of recommendation from professors instead of a dumb pre health comittee letter.

Honestly, in my opinion, this should be taken to a higher power. I am in a similar situation, well sort of, I am not up to the whole pre med comittee thing just yet but at this moment in time, my gpa is low (i am a post bacc student) and I have had some extenuating circumstances occurr in my life to reflect these grades. Regardless, I feel that you should NOT take their recommendation. Find professors to give you their own personal LOR and then ask one of the MD's you shadowed. If you are going to do DO, then get the DO to write you one as well.

I am so upset for you, I feel this is absolutely unjust to you. Pre health comittees think that if you do not have a 3.8 gpa and a 40 MCAT then you dont have a shot at becoming a doctor. In my opinion, its BS! URghh, sorry for my frustration on this matter. Dont quit, seek out other options.

I would not send that letter out if I were you, medical schools will see this as a red flag in my opinion, but then again, I dont know. You may want to keep asking around. I feel that anything negative in a LOR, is not necessarily a good recommendation if you know what I mean.

Good luck, I feel for you, because I may be in the same vote as you come May. Let us know what happens.

 

[jkhamlin]

Wait, so let me get this straight, this stupid pre med committee recommended you with reservations, even though you have 81 hours of shadowing and you explained to them your fascination with the medical profession? I dont mean to be an instigator about your situation, but that committee almost seems like they have a personal vendetta against you.

Who are they to tell you who you should be? Look, I think that what one poster explained before makes a lot of sense, most schools will accept three letters of recommendation from professors instead of a dumb pre health comittee letter.

Honestly, in my opinion, this should be taken to a higher power. I am in a similar situation, well sort of, I am not up to the whole pre med comittee thing just yet but at this moment in time, my gpa is low (i am a post bacc student) and I have had some extenuating circumstances occurr in my life to reflect these grades. Regardless, I feel that you should NOT take their recommendation. Find professors to give you their own personal LOR and then ask one of the MD's you shadowed. If you are going to do DO, then get the DO to write you one as well.

I am so upset for you, I feel this is absolutely unjust to you. Pre health comittees think that if you do not have a 3.8 gpa and a 40 MCAT then you dont have a shot at becoming a doctor. In my opinion, its BS! URghh, sorry for my frustration on this matter. Dont quit, seek out other options.

I would not send that letter out if I were you, medical schools will see this as a red flag in my opinion, but then again, I dont know. You may want to keep asking around. I feel that anything negative in a LOR, is not necessarily a good recommendation if you know what I mean.

Good luck, I feel for you, because I may be in the same vote as you come May. Let us know what happens.

It almost would seem like they have a personal vendetta against me except for the following: 1. The whole process was very brief and rushed. 2. Based on their actions, I wouldn't credit them with the capability of that much forethought or organization.

My biology advisor insisted that it is still a recommendation and went on about red flags and such, so I had them send it. Now I am having second thoughts. My biology advisor and I have been debating (arguing?) about it through email for the last day or so. He seems to think my concerns are unfounded.

I got a good DO to write me the physician letter, but I have only shadowed him for one day. I had a PharmD that I work with write me a letter and I am sure it is an outstanding one. I also showed him the email from the committee chair. He was steamed at her for saying those things about me, so I am sure that he tactfully addressed those concerns in his letter.

 

[jules0328]

Oh man, this is tough! I really hope you get through the process. This concerns me as well, seeing that my gpa is low this semester as a post bacc, i dont know how the committee will see this come May. I only have the spring semester to really show my true colors (wish me luck!). I wish you luck with this.

I feel this is so unfair for the committee to write a letter for you, meanwhile they dont even know you.

Good luck with this. let us know what happens. By the way, are you only applying to DO schools, or MD as well?

 

[jkhamlin]

Oh man, this is tough! I really hope you get through the process. This concerns me as well, seeing that my gpa is low this semester as a post bacc, i dont know how the committee will see this come May. I only have the spring semester to really show my true colors (wish me luck!). I wish you luck with this.

I feel this is so unfair for the committee to write a letter for you, meanwhile they dont even know you.

Good luck with this. let us know what happens. By the way, are you only applying to DO schools, or MD as well?

Thanks, good luck to you. Maybe your committee is more professional than the one at my university.

If I have to do it over, I will bypass the committee. I need to retake the MCAT anyway now that I have had physics II and physiology. I am sure I can get a higher score. I will also be more competitive as a master's candidate.

I am only applying to DO schools. I do not agree with allopathy-only medicine, in my view it is sort of like malpractice.

 

[jules0328]

Thanks, good luck to you. Maybe your committee is more professional than the one at my university.

If I have to do it over, I will bypass the committee. I need to retake the MCAT anyway now that I have had physics II and physiology. I am sure I can get a higher score. I will also be more competitive as a master's candidate.

I am only applying to DO schools. I do not agree with allopathy-only medicine, in my view it is sort of like malpractice.

thanks. Ouch, perhaps you shouldnt have said that, " I do not agree with allopathy-only medicine, in my view it is sort of like malpractice." But then again, we are in the pre osteo forum.

As far as committees go, I think that they suck! Good luck

 

[jkhamlin]

thanks. Ouch, perhaps you shouldnt have said that, " I do not agree with allopathy-only medicine, in my view it is sort of like malpractice." But then again, we are in the pre osteo forum.

As far as committees go, I think that they suck! Good luck

Yeah, a committee is too closely related to a bureaucracy.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

I do not agree with allopathy-only medicine, in my view it is sort of like malpractice.

I'm going to pretend I didn't read this

If I have to do it over, I will bypass the committee. I need to retake the MCAT anyway now that I have had physics II and physiology. I am sure I can get a higher score. I will also be more competitive as a master's candidate.

If you do have to do it over, you may want to look into an online filing service. One of the popular ones is ReferenceNow/Interfolio. You can send your recommendations to the service and they can send out the letters of your choosing together to the schools you specify. Keep in mind that not all osteopathic schools accept this service. I'm pretty sure KCOM doesn't, but I could be wrong. I'm also pretty sure PCOM requires a premed committee letter if your school offers the letter. Someone mentioned above that you can often substitute three letters of recommendation (usually at least 2 faculty). You'll want to check with each school. I'm pretty sure this info is in the AACOM Information Book and on the schools' websites.

Could it raise a flag if you bypass your school's premed committee letter when med schools know your school has one? Sure. But it might put you in a better position than the descriptions you mentioned above of "recommended with reservations". Good luck if you reapply

 

[UNE2009LMD]

Does anyone know how much influence premed committees at undergrad universities really have? I didn't get a very good recommendation from mine and there are some facts that shine a great amount of question over their statements.

My advisor seems to think it is no big deal, but he gets his paycheck signed by the same person if you know what I mean.

I utilized my undergrad premed committee although I was an alum and it helped tremendously. I worked with my advisor since my soph yr in college and 1 yr postgrad...he definitely gave me excellent advice. After writing essays and being interviewed by the committee, I was given an awesome recommendation from them. A committee provides more ammunition than, say, 2 profs who write a paragraph or 2 each. To get to the point, if you have a committee, use it. It won't hurt.

 

[jules0328]

I utilized my undergrad premed committee although I was an alum and it helped tremendously. I worked with my advisor since my soph yr in college and 1 yr postgrad...he definitely gave me excellent advice. After writing essays and being interviewed by the committee, I was given an awesome recommendation from them. A committee provides more ammunition than, say, 2 profs who write a paragraph or 2 each. To get to the point, if you have a committee, use it. It won't hurt.

Umm, it would hurt if the committee wrote you a negative recommendation. In which case, you may ask yourself why then would the committee write a bad LOR, well for one, low gpa or perhaps (like the OP had mentioned) lack of shadowing experience, etc. In my opinion, I dont think that a low gpa makes for a bad med school candidate, depending on what you mean by low, and lack of shadowing experience, the OP had 81 hours of shadowing, I dont think that is a lack thereof.

While a committe may have helped some, it may also hurt others. I do agree with the other posters, make sure you can use alternate methods in getting in your LOR's and yes, it may raise a red flag as to why you did not choose to go with a committee in the first place, but at least your LOR's will be positive instead of negative.

 

[jkhamlin]

Umm, it would hurt if the committee wrote you a negative recommendation. In which case, you may ask yourself why then would the committee write a bad LOR, well for one, low gpa or perhaps (like the OP had mentioned) lack of shadowing experience, etc. In my opinion, I dont think that a low gpa makes for a bad med school candidate, depending on what you mean by low, and lack of shadowing experience, the OP had 81 hours of shadowing, I dont think that is a lack thereof.

While a committe may have helped some, it may also hurt others. I do agree with the other posters, make sure you can use alternate methods in getting in your LOR's and yes, it may raise a red flag as to why you did not choose to go with a committee in the first place, but at least your LOR's will be positive instead of negative.

Also, I'm thinking that if I had used more LOR's instead of the committee I may be more likely to get an interview. In an interview, I could explain why I didn't use the committee. In my case, I am a transfer student and the professors really don't know me. Also, my committee demonstrated a lack of interest throughout the whole process. It probably would have been more beneficial for the med schools evaluating me to hear more from professors who know me than a disinterested group of *****s that don't. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[JonnyG]

I was told the committee has to be on yourside or you are heavily disadvantaged mainly because an undergrad school wants to get more people into med shcool to boost their own stats so if they wont recommend you it looks bad. Though there are always exceptions to the rules.

 

[Old_Mil]

I was told the committee has to be on yourside or you are heavily disadvantaged mainly because an undergrad school wants to get more people into med shcool to boost their own stats so if they wont recommend you it looks bad.

This is precisely why it's important to attend an undergrad school WITHOUT such a committee as an undergrad. You always want to keep as much of the process under your control as possible, not outsource it to those of questionable motivations. It's always better to be a well fed trout in a pond full of minnows than a nervous trout in an ocean full of killer whales. Getting into medical school is 33% hard work, 33% luck, and 33% strategy.

 

[jkhamlin]

This is precisely why it's important to attend an undergrad school WITHOUT such a committee as an undergrad. You always want to keep as much of the process under your control as possible, not outsource it to those of questionable motivations. It's always better to be a well fed trout in a pond full of minnows than a nervous trout in an ocean full of killer whales. Getting into medical school is 33% hard work, 33% luck, and 33% strategy.

I agree. The problem was that my choice was this: 2 universities in my town of the same quality; one (with a committee) is $160/credit hour, the other (without a committee) is $500/credit hour. Pretty much no choice in the matter.

 

[jules0328]

I am totally on the opposite end of the spectrum. I had no idea about these silly pre health committees and decided to attend a really expensive university. Now, i am, literally, scared $hit*e$$ of the fact that I may not be good enough for these people. If their recommendation is negative, that does ruin ALL of your chances into medical schoools? Man, this has me really worried. I dont trust these committees as far as I can throw them.

Anyone else have this kind of experience?

 

[medic170]

I'm going to pretend I didn't read this
If you do have to do it over, you may want to look into an online filing service. One of the popular ones is ReferenceNow/Interfolio. You can send your recommendations to the service and they can send out the letters of your choosing together to the schools you specify. Keep in mind that not all osteopathic schools accept this service. I'm pretty sure KCOM doesn't, but I could be wrong. I'm also pretty sure PCOM requires a premed committee letter if your school offers the letter. Someone mentioned above that you can often substitute three letters of recommendation (usually at least 2 faculty). You'll want to check with each school. I'm pretty sure this info is in the AACOM Information Book and on the schools' websites.

Could it raise a flag if you bypass your school's premed committee letter when med schools know your school has one? Sure. But it might put you in a better position than the descriptions you mentioned above of "recommended with reservations". Good luck if you reapply

I applied to almost all of the DO schools and they all took interfolio with no prob. (KVOM too) Interfolio is a great service.

 

[jkhamlin]

I'm going to pretend I didn't read this

Whatever.

If you do have to do it over, you may want to look into an online filing service. One of the popular ones is ReferenceNow/Interfolio. You can send your recommendations to the service and they can send out the letters of your choosing together to the schools you specify. Keep in mind that not all osteopathic schools accept this service. I'm pretty sure KCOM doesn't, but I could be wrong. I'm also pretty sure PCOM requires a premed committee letter if your school offers the letter. Someone mentioned above that you can often substitute three letters of recommendation (usually at least 2 faculty). You'll want to check with each school. I'm pretty sure this info is in the AACOM Information Book and on the schools' websites.

Could it raise a flag if you bypass your school's premed committee letter when med schools know your school has one? Sure. But it might put you in a better position than the descriptions you mentioned above of "recommended with reservations". Good luck if you reapply

I looked into Interfolio. It looks useful, but I don't see how it could have helped with my committee problem.

 

[llort]

1. I interviewed and got into DO school before any of my letters of rec even arrived at the school. I think they are still missing one or two of the letters.

2. If you think your schools premed committee blows, then bypass them and just have another proffessor send a letter.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Whatever.

It's one thing to say that, in your opinion, osteopathic medicine offers more complete treatment than allopathic medicine. It's quite another to say that, "ALLOPATHY-ONLY MEDICINE...IS SORT OF LIKE MALPRACTICE." But this is your thread and I'm not here to hijack it...so I'll avoid arguing with the merit of your comment and just try and leave it at that.

I looked into Interfolio. It looks useful, but I don't see how it could have helped with my committee problem.

My understanding is that your problem is the premed committee didn't give you a wonderful recommendation (and their rationale seems unfounded) and it's getting sent to the osteopathic schools. Interfolio can't help you now if you've already sent out your premed committee letter. My point is that if you do have to reapply again, you can have all your recommendations (from faculty, work, organizations, etc.) sent to Interfolio. But you don't have to send the premed committee letter that wasn't to your liking. Many schools that do not have premed committees (Iowa State University and Case Western Reserve University I think are a few of the many examples) essentially do the same thing--they just file all your recommendations, transcripts, etc. together. That's what Interfolio does. And that way you wouldn't have to include the premed committee letter; you would bypass its usage altogether. So that is how it could help you with your committee problem if you have to reapply in the future.

I applied to almost all of the DO schools and they all took interfolio with no prob. (KVOM too) Interfolio is a great service.

I stand corrected on KCOM. Good to hear! I plan on using it in a few years. My understanding is that some people had complaints before, but Interfolio has worked to fix things over the years.

 

[jules0328]

I have to say, this thread was useful because in the end, I may end up using Interfolio if I start getting the impression that the committee will not be on my side. Thanks everyone for your comments, and thanks to the original poster for starting the thread.

 

[jkhamlin]

It's one thing to say that, in your opinion, osteopathic medicine offers more complete treatment than allopathic medicine. It's quite another to say that, "ALLOPATHY-ONLY MEDICINE...IS SORT OF LIKE MALPRACTICE." But this is your thread and I'm not here to hijack it...so I'll avoid arguing with the merit of your comment and just try and leave it at that.

My understanding is that your problem is the premed committee didn't give you a wonderful recommendation (and their rationale seems unfounded) and it's getting sent to the osteopathic schools. Interfolio can't help you now if you've already sent out your premed committee letter. My point is that if you do have to reapply again, you can have all your recommendations (from faculty, work, organizations, etc.) sent to Interfolio. But you don't have to send the premed committee letter that wasn't to your liking. Many schools that do not have premed committees (Iowa State University and Case Western Reserve University I think are a few of the many examples) essentially do the same thing--they just file all your recommendations, transcripts, etc. together. That's what Interfolio does. And that way you wouldn't have to include the premed committee letter; you would bypass its usage altogether. So that is how it could help you with your committee problem if you have to reapply in the future.

My premed committee gives the option of not sending it if the student doesn't like their conclusions. I was VERY apprehensive, but my psychology advisor and my biology advisor both said I should. My biology advisor said it sends red flags if you have an evaluation done and don't send it. I'm thinking that the only way the med schools would know I had the evaluation done is if I do send it. I assumed that I was just being emotional so I ignored it. Now I am having major second thoughts, and looking at it logically it seems my first reaction and second thoughts were correct and my advisors weren't. I am hoping it will have minimal impact.

That brings up a good question, though. How many people here don't waive their right to see their LOR's and how has it impacted your app process?

 

[Scarletbegonias]

Does anyone know how much influence premed committees at undergrad universities really have? I didn't get a very good recommendation from mine and there are some facts that shine a great amount of question over their statements.

My advisor seems to think it is no big deal, but he gets his paycheck signed by the same person if you know what I mean.

Now that I am pretty much unsuccessful at every school to which I applied, and I know of people that got interviews with lower stats than I have, when I didn't, I am suspicious that my pre-med committee letter of recommendation may be tainted as well. I will begin looking into this, so that I can fix it when I reapply. In other areas such as ECs I am a pretty strong candidate, so I worry that the committee, who met me at the interview for the first time, may have made some inferences, like with yours, that were untrue.

I signed a waiver of my rights to read it because I thought that the med schools would favor this. I haven't inquired as to whether I actually can read it (as in, I may not have the right to, but they may let me anyway). If you have to reapply, will you be required to have another pre-med committee letter written, or will you have to use the previous one, or will you get three faculty letters instead?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Does anyone know how much influence premed committees at undergrad universities really have? I didn't get a very good recommendation from mine and there are some facts that shine a great amount of question over their statements.

My advisor seems to think it is no big deal, but he gets his paycheck signed by the same person if you know what I mean.

Noone gets a good recommendation from them, unless you have a 4.0/38

Everyone I know was told to think of a new career. It obviously didn't make a difference in the long run for me.