Prereqs more than 10 yrs old...?

[werryanne]

So I'm obviously a non-trad applicant. Has anyone else run into this? For schools that require prereqs within the past 10 years - is this a hard and fast rule, or might they make exceptions?

Here's my story:
I got my undergrad in Kinesiology in 2004. My original plan was PT school, but I wanted to get married and I didn't feel like I was ready for grad school. I ended up getting a job for the Navy as a Fitness Coordinator and I loved it, so I stayed for 8 years.
But a few years ago I decided I wanted to go back to PT. I applied to ECU in 2013 (all prereqs and other requirements complete) and did not even get an interview. I was told that 2 flags on my application were my GPA (2 Cs), and my out-of-state status.
So, I moved to NC about a year ago and have retake the classes with Cs to get As.

Anyways, I'm going to apply to ECU again and probably also UNC Chapel Hill, since they don't specify a time frame for prereqs. But I'm looking to expand my options and I keep running into the 10 year requirement.

That got a little long. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?
Thanks!

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[SwampPT]

So I'm obviously a non-trad applicant. Has anyone else run into this? For schools that require prereqs within the past 10 years - is this a hard and fast rule, or might they make exceptions?

Here's my story:
I got my undergrad in Kinesiology in 2004. My original plan was PT school, but I wanted to get married and I didn't feel like I was ready for grad school. I ended up getting a job for the Navy as a Fitness Coordinator and I loved it, so I stayed for 8 years.
But a few years ago I decided I wanted to go back to PT. I applied to ECU in 2013 (all prereqs and other requirements complete) and did not even get an interview. I was told that 2 flags on my application were my GPA (2 Cs), and my out-of-state status.
So, I moved to NC about a year ago and have retake the classes with Cs to get As.

Anyways, I'm going to apply to ECU again and probably also UNC Chapel Hill, since they don't specify a time frame for prereqs. But I'm looking to expand my options and I keep running into the 10 year requirement.

That got a little long. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?
Thanks!

I'm a nontraditional student also. Unfortunately, just about every program I have seen has a ten year limit on the prerequisites. Too bad they don't have a ten year limit on the letter grade also! I would compile a list of the schools I wanted to attend and then call each program and ask them if they will make an exception. I would do this as fast as possible and if they won't make an exception, then I'd start taking the prerequisite courses over again.

 

[jblil]

When I applied to ECU and UNC-CH in 2012, the only pre-reqs with a "shelf-life" were Anatomy & Physiology, and Exercise Physiology. Those 2 classes had to be taken within the last 5 years. Anything else can be as old as you want. But do call the schools and ask them, their policy may have changed.

 

[starrsgirl]

I went through this with all of my pre reqs. Quite a few schools were willing to waive the english, psychology, speech and what not pre reqs (for 10 year rule). But none of the schools I asked would waive the 10 year rule on any of the hard science classes (except math, they were cool with my math being old as long as my physics was current). It's definitely worth the call, but otherwise plan to retake those ASAP.

 

[werryanne]

Thanks for the responses. This is a little discouraging. I'll definitely contact the schools, but I would potentially have to retake:
A&P II, Chem I & II, Psych...

I suppose it's possible. Blah.

 

[okramango]

The schools I applied to were fine with my math and one of my bios being over 10 yrs old, but I checked with each of them in advance about this. I definitely suggest contacting your target programs and asking, especially if you have your heart set on a specific program.

 

[okramango]

Thanks for the responses. This is a little discouraging. I'll definitely contact the schools, but I would potentially have to retake:
A&P II, Chem I & II, Psych...

I suppose it's possible. Blah.

Oh yeah, my schools also accepted my 10+ yr old general psych class, so hopefully you can at least get that one waived.

 

[tcpt]

the purpose of the 10 year requirement is to see that the applicant has recently had relevant academic preparation in courses related to physical therapy. In some occasions, a singular course could be waived, however, the faculty needs to see that the applicant will actually perform well in a graduate program. Recently completed courses can help communicate that.

An undergraduate academic preparation for a professional program unfortunately has a shelf life.

Generally, a review of the full transcript will assist the faculty in determining whether those courses can be waived or not. A weak and/or dated academic preparation makes it difficult for the applicant to be competitive for admission. A strong and dated transcript give the applicant a little bit more bargaining power.

 

[werryanne]

Emails sent this morning. Now to wait for a response. I'll update when I head from them. Thanks all!

 

[werryanne]

the purpose of the 10 year requirement is to see that the applicant has recently had relevant academic preparation in courses related to physical therapy. In some occasions, a singular course could be waived, however, the faculty needs to see that the applicant will actually perform well in a graduate program. Recently completed courses can help communicate that.

An undergraduate academic preparation for a professional program unfortunately has a shelf life.

Generally, a review of the full transcript will assist the faculty in determining whether those courses can be waived or not. A weak and/or dated academic preparation makes it difficult for the applicant to be competitive for admission. A strong and dated transcript give the applicant a little bit more bargaining power.

I definitely understand the reasoning. I have taken quite a few prereqs within the past 3 years and received nothing but As. Maybe that will be enough. I wouldn't mind retaking A&P II if necessary. It will just be harder to squeeze in the chemistry and the others too if required.

 

[DesertPT]

Unfortunately, just about every program I have seen has a ten year limit on the prerequisites. Too bad they don't have a ten year limit on the letter grade also!

Geez ain't this the truth. What a total ripoff.

 

[starrsgirl]

^^^*^ this!!!!! I was so frustrated by this. If you don't count the class, don't count the grade. (Those old classes count as part of the pre req GPA even though they can't be used as pre reqs. Dumb)

 

[SwampPT]

^^^*^ this!!!!! I was so frustrated by this. If you don't count the class, don't count the grade. (Those old classes count as part of the pre req GPA even though they can't be used as pre reqs. Dumb)

That policy definitely hurts nontraditional students from a competitive standpoint. I feel fortunate I got accepted. Counting grades I'd gotten before most applicants were in kindergarten dropped my cGPA to a 3.15. If they weren't counted I'd be a 3.8 or 3.9. That's an enormous difference when it comes to being a competitive applicant. That's why it's a good idea for nontraditional students to apply to programs that heavily weigh the last 60 units.

 

[starrsgirl]

Yep, I was in the same boat. Officially, I applied with a 3.1 GPA too....but I had received nothing but straight A's for 10 years leading up to PT school application. Not surprised there are only 2 non trads in my class....

 

[tcpt]

I definitely understand the reasoning. I have taken quite a few prereqs within the past 3 years and received nothing but As. Maybe that will be enough. I wouldn't mind retaking A&P II if necessary. It will just be harder to squeeze in the chemistry and the others too if required.

Prioritize courses that you should retake. Anatomy and physiology are the most important. Then retake a course you got a low grade in. Communicate with the school your plan.

 

[DesertPT]

Prioritize courses that you should retake. Anatomy and physiology are the most important.

Do you have any evidence of this. I've seen this stated on this forum but haven't encountered schools that say that A&P is any more important than other pre-reqs. Your pre-req GPA is affected equally by all of them.

 

[tcpt]

Do you have any evidence of this. I've seen this stated on this forum but haven't encountered schools that say that A&P is any more important than other pre-reqs. Your pre-req GPA is affected equally by all of them.

As a faculty member, we emphasize A&P because those are foundational science courses. You are right that they equally affect gpa, but they are key to success in an entry level program. Students that struggle with A&P prereqs will usually also struggle in the didactic curriculum. Hope this helps ..

 

[DesertPT]

As a faculty member, we emphasize A&P because those are foundational science courses. You are right that they equally affect gpa, but they are key to success in an entry level program. Students that struggle with A&P prereqs will usually also struggle in the didactic curriculum. Hope this helps ..

Glad to see another faculty member on the forum, you guys tend to be few and far between around here! I hope you'll stick around, I'm sure your input will be much appreciated by plenty of people on here.

 

[tweaze]

Most of the schools I applied to accepted my old prereqs though most of them were not hard sciences.

Interestingly enough, the only school that would not accept an old psych class is NAU, which is where I will be attending, so I am taking that right now.

 

[werryanne]

I got a response from ECU this morning that these classes do not expire. I won't have to retake them! What a load off...

Still waiting on a response from Chapel Hill. Hoping they say the same.

 

[werryanne]

Chapel Hill responded and will also accept my old prereqs! Thanks again for the support!

 

[davidtheusername]

The school I was accepted to said it had a five-year limit, and mine were over ten years but when I called they took them all. Good luck, I hope that happens for you too. I was just sad that I was already enrolled in physics again when I was told that. Retaking physics when I didn't have to was a pain. Oh well.

 

[davidtheusername]

I just saw that they took yours. That's great! I'm always happy to see more non-traditionals because I feel like the old man in my 30's changing careers.

 

[ptisfun2]

As a faculty member, we emphasize A&P because those are foundational science courses. You are right that they equally affect gpa, but they are key to success in an entry level program. Students that struggle with A&P prereqs will usually also struggle in the didactic curriculum. Hope this helps ..

Perfect example of why to contact schools.

As a faculty member and chair of Admissions, we look at no course as any more important than anyother. A&P (although a pre-req) is weighted the same as Psych 101 (another pre-req). well I guess since A&P are 2 courses and Psych 101 is 1 course, A&P is doubly weighted, but you get my point...I hope

We have not found A&P as any greater predictor of success with PT school than any other course. Overall undergraduate GPA is the only thing we have found that predicts success, however weak (r ~= 0.30) it is (so it really is a crap shoot).

 

[DesertPT]

Perfect example of why to contact schools.

As a faculty member and chair of Admissions, we look at no course as any more important than anyother. A&P (although a pre-req) is weighted the same as Psych 101 (another pre-req). well I guess since A&P are 2 courses and Psych 101 is 1 course, A&P is doubly weighted, but you get my point...I hope

We have not found A&P as any greater predictor of success with PT school than any other course. Overall undergraduate GPA is the only thing we have found that predicts success, however weak (r ~= 0.30) it is (so it really is a crap shoot).

You have not found pre-req GPA to predict success any better than overall GPA?

 

[SwampPT]

I just saw that they took yours. That's great! I'm always happy to see more non-traditionals because I feel like the old man in my 30's changing careers.

Don't feel too bad....or old....I'm 42.

 

[SwampPT]

Perfect example of why to contact schools.

As a faculty member and chair of Admissions, we look at no course as any more important than anyother. A&P (although a pre-req) is weighted the same as Psych 101 (another pre-req). well I guess since A&P are 2 courses and Psych 101 is 1 course, A&P is doubly weighted, but you get my point...I hope

We have not found A&P as any greater predictor of success with PT school than any other course. Overall undergraduate GPA is the only thing we have found that predicts success, however weak (r ~= 0.30) it is (so it really is a crap shoot).

I'm curious as to the most common reasons students fail in PT school. I find myself wondering if more fail or just drop out because of the work load or various other issues. I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[SwampPT]

You have not found pre-req GPA to predict success any better than overall GPA?

Since predicting success is a crap shoot, I wonder if there has been stats compiled as to the reasons people fail in PT school. Is it mostly grades? Do people quit because of the workload or other reasons?

 

[ptisfun2]

You have not found pre-req GPA to predict success any better than overall GPA?

We have not done any analysis of this. I keep saying it is a perfect area of scholarly inquiry....it is just nothing I find interesting AT ALL. But a faculty member could write a couple of quick and easy papers.
We have not. There is a paper - I forget the author, but published in JPTE or PTJ - I forget which one. Overall GPA and Verbal GRE were the best (although weak) predictors of passing NPTE. It is an old paper, but no one has updated it. Maybe an abstract at a Annual or CSM, but without a paper it has no teeth. AT ALL. pre-req GPA is different at each school since many have different pre-reqs. We did look over 3 years and found high correlations between overall and pre-req GPA (like a Spearman of 0.93 or so). Since pre-req is quite honestly a PITA to score on WebAdmit (Uni side of PTCAS), and a high correlation we don't focus on it.

But we have done no prediction.

 

[ptisfun2]

I'm curious as to the most common reasons students fail in PT school. I find myself wondering if more fail or just drop out because of the work load or various other issues. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Honestly we do not have enough failures to even warrant a guess. My opinion is we give them way too many chances....take up to 2 courses over (sit out a year). Repeat one rotation if you fail..second one you are out. but in my almost 10 years, we have had 3 fail out.....1 due to failing courses on the second go around, and 2 due to failing 2 rotations.

Some drop out. I do not know why.

We have no standard policy about a specific course and things like that. I feel strongly that a course is a faculty autonomy issue, and no department standard should be set. I understand that is not the same at some schools, and I am very glad I work in a place that does not force faculty to all think exactly the same.

For my courses, fail an exam... that is your grade. Fail a practical....can take one make up, but highest score possible is 80. Fail it a second time, you get a 0, and your course grade is your course grade. I do not offer remediation unless you set up an appointment with me for questions. My students are graduate students and are 100% responsible for their learning. I am there to guide them, but I am not chasing them down to make sure they understand the material. They are graduate students and even worse, professional graduate students. It is why I think the professor LOR is probably one of the more important things for admissions. If they are not ready for graduate school, it is obvious in the LOR and interview, and they do not score highly from me.

 

[SwampPT]

Honestly we do not have enough failures to even warrant a guess. My opinion is we give them way too many chances....take up to 2 courses over (sit out a year). Repeat one rotation if you fail..second one you are out. but in my almost 10 years, we have had 3 fail out.....1 due to failing courses on the second go around, and 2 due to failing 2 rotations.

Some drop out. I do not know why.

We have no standard policy about a specific course and things like that. I feel strongly that a course is a faculty autonomy issue, and no department standard should be set. I understand that is not the same at some schools, and I am very glad I work in a place that does not force faculty to all think exactly the same.

For my courses, fail an exam... that is your grade. Fail a practical....can take one make up, but highest score possible is 80. Fail it a second time, you get a 0, and your course grade is your course grade. I do not offer remediation unless you set up an appointment with me for questions. My students are graduate students and are 100% responsible for their learning. I am there to guide them, but I am not chasing them down to make sure they understand the material. They are graduate students and even worse, professional graduate students. It is why I think the professor LOR is probably one of the more important things for admissions. If they are not ready for graduate school, it is obvious in the LOR and interview, and they do not score highly from me.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the time you took to give me an answer. The professors who wrote my LOR's always tell me I will do great in PT school and that I worry for nothing. Maybe they're right