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[The Geek]

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I'm sure something similar has been posted before... but I tried searching and couldn't find something I can more directly relate to.

I already graduated with a business degree from a 4-year school but unfortunately partied too much. I ended with a 3.1 gpa (but lots of EC; I did not take any of the prereqs during my undergrad). Since then I've matured a great deal, and once I got laid off earlier this year, I decided to make a career change into the medical field (I'm 26). I'm taking school seriously now, but with all my bills/expenses I can only afford to take classes at a CC/JC. I'm still not sure what exactly I want to get into, but med school is one of my main interests. I'm also currently volunteering at the hospital, and will be shadowing soon. Since I cannot afford a state school, I will be taking ALL my prereqs at CC/JC.

(1) Overall, do med schools still look down on CC's for ALL prereqs, or are they pretty understanding/indiscriminate? I will ask the schools directly, but just wanted a general idea.
(2) Does my bachelor's gpa hinder my chances, even if I get a CC gpa thats 3.75 or higher? ...assuming of course I get a competitive MCAT score. (took physics 1 and stats over the summer, so right now I have a 4.0 in regards to prereqs 😛 ...and maintaining it so far this semester)

Thanks in advance!

 

[apumic]

I'm sure something similar has been posted before... but I tried searching and couldn't find something I can more directly relate to.

I already graduated with a business degree from a 4-year school but unfortunately partied too much. I ended with a 3.1 gpa (but lots of EC; I did not take any of the prereqs during my undergrad). Since then I've matured a great deal, and once I got laid off earlier this year, I decided to make a career change into the medical field (I'm 26). I'm taking school seriously now, but with all my bills/expenses I can only afford to take classes at a CC/JC. I'm still not sure what exactly I want to get into, but med school is one of my main interests. I'm also currently volunteering at the hospital, and will be shadowing soon. Since I cannot afford a state school, I will be taking ALL my prereqs at CC/JC.

(1) Overall, do med schools still look down on CC's for ALL prereqs, or are they pretty understanding/indiscriminate? I will ask the schools directly, but just wanted a general idea.
(2) Does my bachelor's gpa hinder my chances, even if I get a CC gpa thats 3.75 or higher? ...assuming of course I get a competitive MCAT score. (took physics 1 and stats over the summer, so right now I have a 4.0 in regards to prereqs 😛 ...and maintaining it so far this semester)

Thanks in advance!

Ordinarily, taking classes at a CC as a post bacc student isn't the end of the world, assuming you have a strong UG record to fall upon as med schools are likely to understand your fulltime work schedule interfering w/ university classes (which is why CCs offer night classes). Unfortunately, with such a poor UG record in a somewhat dubious major to begin with (Business is a vocational major so that's really already 2 strikes against you), you can't really afford to try and do pre-reqs while recovering your GPA a bit at a CC as anyone who looks at that is going to attribute any good grades you get to the lack of rigor at your CC.

To your questions...

1) Any science class at a CC is suspect -- esp. science classes that are pre-reqs. English, math, etc. pre-req classes are more acceptable at a CC but still not great.
2) Yes, your 3.1 will hurt you. Med schools will calculate your GPA as PB & UG together, so a 3.1 UG w/ 120 credits + 4.0 PB w/ 32 credits (pre-reqs) = 3.29, which gives you a pretty poor chance at med school, to be honest, unless you get a stellar MCAT score (31=average for an accepted student and is about the 84th percentile so about 84% of people score below average; to be competitive w/ a poor GPA (at 3.1, you'd be below somewhere around 80% of applicants and even if you got it up to that 3.29 mark that you'd make if you got straight-A's in your pre-reqs, you'd still be quite a bit below the average applicant with a 3.45 and the average matriculant with a 3.65), you'd probably need to be several points about this, say, a 34 or 35 MCAT, which would be above the 90th percentile)

 

[chman]

Ordinarily, taking classes at a CC as a post bacc student isn't the end of the world, assuming you have a strong UG record to fall upon as med schools are likely to understand your fulltime work schedule interfering w/ university classes (which is why CCs offer night classes). Unfortunately, with such a poor UG record in a somewhat dubious major to begin with (Business is a vocational major so that's really already 2 strikes against you), you can't really afford to try and do pre-reqs while recovering your GPA a bit at a CC as anyone who looks at that is going to attribute any good grades you get to the lack of rigor at your CC.

To your questions...

1) Any science class at a CC is suspect -- esp. science classes that are pre-reqs. English, math, etc. pre-req classes are more acceptable at a CC but still not great.
2) Yes, your 3.1 will hurt you. Med schools will calculate your GPA as PB & UG together, so a 3.1 UG w/ 120 credits + 4.0 PB w/ 32 credits (pre-reqs) = 3.29, which gives you a pretty poor chance at med school, to be honest, unless you get a stellar MCAT score (31=average for an accepted student and is about the 84th percentile so about 84% of people score below average; to be competitive, you'd probably need to be several points about this, say, a 34 or 35 MCAT, which would be above the 90th percentile)

I disagree that cc classes are automatically "suspect." I have talked to many school's admin departments and they all say pretty much the same thing. They say that pre-reqs at cc's are fine, but to make sure and take some science classes at a four year as well. If your grades stay the same at both it really is not an issue. Also, guess what? Every class I have taken at a cc has been with a PhD professor, not a TA, and the max a class has had student wise is 100. Try that in a intro bio at a four year.. I think what is an issue is when people are enrolled at a four year school and still take their pre-reqs at a cc because they think they are pulling a fast one.

Anyways, to the OP; I would continues to take some of your pre-reqs at the cc. However, I agree with the above poster that you should find a way to take some science classes at a four year to show that your new grades are not the result of being taken at a cc.

EDIT: If you do good in all your science classes you should be able to raise your GPA. Another option would be to get a masters and do well in it. That would trump your undergrad slump.

 

[The Geek]

Thanks for your input and honesty!

I was afraid my UG was going to come back and haunt me. 🙁 I could try and scrounge up some money to take a few classes at a 4-year. What classes you think would be best to take? Since it is more expensive, I have to be picky... assuming I can get into a class as they're all impacted here in CA. I'm currently taking Bio 1 and Gen Chem 1 (as well as some psych classes for other possible career paths). Maybe I should take O-chem there? Would taking A&P and/or Biochem help my chances? Any little chance to raise my gpa wouldn't hurt i suppose... plus the knowledge of course.

Hmm, looks like MCAT is my saving hope. Yes, I've thought about a Masters (like NP or PA) and I'm still open to it. Just trying to explore all my options and realistic chances, and weigh it all out from there.

 

[apumic]

I disagree that cc classes are automatically "suspect." I have talked to many school's admin departments and they all say pretty much the same thing. They say that pre-reqs at cc's are fine, but to make sure and take some science classes at a four year as well. If your grades stay the same at both it really is not an issue. Also, guess what? Every class I have taken at a cc has been with a PhD professor, not a TA, and the max a class has had student wise is 100. Try that in a intro bio at a four year.. I think what is an issue is when people are enrolled at a four year school and still take their pre-reqs at a cc because they think they are pulling a fast one.

Anyways, to the OP; I would continues to take some of your pre-reqs at the cc. However, I agree with the above poster that you should find a way to take some science classes at a four year to show that your new grades are not the result of being taken at a cc.

EDIT: If you do good in all your science classes you should be able to raise your GPA. Another option would be to get a masters and do well in it. That would trump your undergrad slump.

Certainly taking some upper division courses at a 4 yr would help but the OP has already established a poor academic record. If his/her record was good (e.g., 3.65+), this wouldn't be an issue, but when one is trying to recover a GPA, taking freshmen-level pre-reqs at a CC is going to look like the equivalent of taking the med school pre-reqs over the summer at a CC while enrolled at a university.

As far as your classes being w/ PhDs that's great, but the fact is that an adcom doesn't know that. Most CCs utilize MA/MS instructors quite heavily, so unless you decide to put that in your PS, no one will ever know.

Finally, the idea that graduate GPA "trumps" UG GPA has been denied many a time here on SDN. It appears to be the general consensus here that while med schools may care somewhat about a graduate GPA, it is the UG GPA they really look at. That is, a 4.0 in an MS Biomedical Sciences program doesn't necessarily fix a 3.1 UG GPA. It's also noteworthy that if one doesn't get a phenomenal graduate GPA (i.e., you want a 3.7+) in an SMP or Plan B style program, it can sink him/her completely/permanently as it's basically a giant stigma to your application.

 

[apumic]

Thanks for your input and honesty!

I was afraid my UG was going to come back and haunt me. 🙁 I could try and scrounge up some money to take a few classes at a 4-year. What classes you think would be best to take? Since it is more expensive, I have to be picky... assuming I can get into a class as they're all impacted here in CA. I'm currently taking Bio 1 and Gen Chem 1 (as well as some psych classes for other possible career paths). Maybe I should take O-chem there? Would taking A&P and/or Biochem help my chances? Any little chance to raise my gpa wouldn't hurt i suppose... plus the knowledge of course.

Hmm, looks like MCAT is my saving hope. Yes, I've thought about a Masters (like NP or PA) and I'm still open to it. Just trying to explore all my options and realistic chances, and weigh it all out from there.

A&P generally isn't recommended. Biochem may be helpful at some schools but not likely to be helpful at the schools you'd want to apply to. I'd definitely take o-chem at a 4 yr. If you're already taking Bio 1 & G-Chem 1 at the CC, finish them there (doing half a sequence at each school is generally not a good idea). Taking a 1-semester Biochem class and a 1-semester Genetics course at a 4-yr along with the full yr of o-chem and of physics at the 4-yr is probably sufficient. Also, make absolutely sure you get As at the CC as anything less will sink you (i.e., if you don't get an A at a CC, adcoms will ask just how badly you would have done at a "more rigorous" institution).

 

[chman]

Finally, the idea that graduate GPA "trumps" UG GPA has been denied many a time here on SDN. It appears to be the general consensus here that while med schools may care somewhat about a graduate GPA, it is the UG GPA they really look at. That is, a 4.0 in an MS Biomedical Sciences program doesn't necessarily fix a 3.1 UG GPA. It's also noteworthy that if one doesn't get a phenomenal graduate GPA (i.e., you want a 3.7+) in an SMP or Plan B style program, it can sink him/her completely/permanently as it's basically a giant stigma to your application.

I think your right that it is not like the undergrad never happened. I could have expanded on that, so I will.

I think that since the OP does not have any pre-req done that if he/she did all the pre-reqs plus a graduate degree it would give a serious boost. But yea, the undergrad stuff will still be there. If I were the OP I would try and get into a masters that I would not mind falling back on if the med-school thing does not work out. If the OP ends up doing really well, it could help a lot.

 

[The Geek]

Oh by all means, I'm not planning to get a masters as a boost for my app. If i pursue a masters, it will be for that reason... not as a stepping stone to med school.

It is still relatively recent since I decided on a career change, so I'm exploring my practical options. If I choose to try the MD path, I would clearly work my butt off, get as much exposure, etc etc. If I choose a different path, luckily many of the classes are also prereqs, haha.

apumic - i actually already took physics 1 over the summer, so looks like i'll be finishing that up at a CC as well. and yes, I am not aiming for anything else but an A! I appreciate your input, makes the picture much clearer.

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions!

 

[chman]

Hmm, looks like MCAT is my saving hope. Yes, I've thought about a Masters (like NP or PA) and I'm still open to it. Just trying to explore all my options and realistic chances, and weigh it all out from there.

.

Well... PA school is about as hard, and sometimes harder, to get into then med-school. I know, it sucks.

 

[The Geek]

I am not doubting that! Plus PA schools require i think like 2 years experience in the field as an RN, EMT, etc... forgot the exact amount. But, like I said, just exploring my options. Yea... does suck tho.

 

[chman]

I am not doubting that! Plus PA schools require i think like 2 years experience in the field as an RN, EMT, etc... forgot the exact amount. But, like I said, just exploring my options. Yea... does suck tho.

Two years is the max. Most don't require that much.

 

[Beta Cell]

.

Well... PA school is about as hard, and sometimes harder, to get into then med-school. I know, it sucks.

No, it isn't. That's why they ASSIST Physicians. That's like saying it's harder to be a paralegal than a lawyer. Both require knowledge of the law, but a lawyer went through three years of school. PA's don't go through extensive residencies like physicians do. Physicians are the leaders of healthcare teams and PA's are simply members of that team. Naturally, it's harder to rise to the top.

PA's are definitely qualified and intelligent people, don't get me wrong. They have their place in healthcare, certainly, but I cannot agree that PA schools are nearly as difficult to get into as MD schools.

 

[chman]

No, it isn't. That's why they ASSIST Physicians. That's like saying it's harder to be a paralegal than a lawyer. Both require knowledge of the law, but a lawyer went through three years of school. PA's don't go through extensive residencies like physicians do. Physicians are the leaders of healthcare teams and PA's are simply members of that team.

I think you need to read the previous posts going on a tangent about something else. In context we were talking about how hard it is to get into these schools. Not the function of jobs.

And yes it is. If you don't believe me check out the stats for people who get into PA school. % wise there is a way higher spot to applicant ratio at PA schools. Plus they need work experience.

 

[Beta Cell]

Ok, sounds good.

 

[chman]

I think you need to read my response, I addressed that. If you'd like to prove me wrong, show me some statistics of schools that have both PA programs and MD programs.

You are the one who is challenging my post. Therefor you should probably get the stats. But I'll see what I can do. Read my EDIT, as well.

 

[Beta Cell]

You are the one who is challenging my post. Therefor you should probably get the stats. But I'll see what I can do. Read my EDIT, as well.

The statistics don't exist? They don't even seem to take the same standardized tests (GRE for PA, it seems). Most logical people would agree that it's harder to get into a DOCTORAL program than a PA program.

Again, I admire what they do. In no way is this an affront to what PA's do or how hard they have worked to get where they are. I respect everyone in medicine; nurses and PA's work very hard. The simple fact is that medical schools grant doctoral degrees, it has to be harder.

 

[apumic]

The statistics don't exist? They don't even seem to take the same standardized tests (GRE for PA, it seems). Most logical people would agree that it's harder to get into a DOCTORAL program than a PA program.

Again, I admire what they do. In no way is this an affront to what PA's do or how hard they have worked to get where they are. The simple fact is that medical schools grant doctoral degrees, it has to be harder.

lol... dude, calm down!

PA schools do tend to be about as difficult to get into as med schools, as I recall. They are both highly competitive. Sure, the MD has more training and more responsibility but in terms of competitiveness for entry, they are quite similar.

 

[chman]

The statistics don't exist? They don't even seem to take the same standardized tests (GRE for PA, it seems). Most logical people would agree that it's harder to get into a DOCTORAL program than a PA program.

Again, I admire what they do. In no way is this an affront to what PA's do or how hard they have worked to get where they are. I respect everyone in medicine, nurses and PA's work very hard. The simple fact is that medical schools grant doctoral degrees, it has to be harder.

First, I'm not a PA. I am a pre-med just like you. Refer to avatar. Next, don't just assume things. Just because one is a doctoral program does not make it harder to get into. I am working on the stats right now, and maybe you could do some research before you argue your point further.

 

[Beta Cell]

First, I'm not a PA. I am a pre-med just like you. Refer to avatar. Next, don't just assume things. Just because one is a doctoral program does not make it harder to get into. I am working on the stats right now, and maybe you could do some research before you argue your point further.

Good luck, man. I'm dropping the point; there's obviously no point in arguing. It's useless belaboring the point. Nursing School, Dental School, Law School, Medical School, PA School, CNA degrees, Associate Degrees, Business degrees, Science degrees, Vocational degrees, PhD's, etc are all equal. ITT=MIT.

 

[chman]

Good luck, man. I'm dropping the point; there's obviously no point in arguing. It's useless belaboring the point. Nursing School, Dental School, Law School, Medical School, PA School, CNA degrees, Associate Degrees, Business degrees, Science degrees, Vocational degrees, PhD's, etc are all equal. ITT=MIT.

That's cool with me. If you want I can pm you the stats I was able to get. I'm not saying that all degrees are =. Not at all. An MD degree is obviously more rigorous in nature. I was just commenting on the admissions, that's all.

In all fairness I was too fast to respond to a couple of your posts. It's never good to post in the heat of the moment.

 

[Beta Cell]

That's cool with me. If you want I can pm you the stats I was able to get. I'm not saying that all degrees are =. Not at all. An MD degree is obviously more rigorous in nature. I was just commenting on the admissions, that's all.

In all fairness I was too fast to respond to a couple of your posts. It's never good to post in the heat of the moment.

I agree. 😀 No need to PM the stats unless you really want to.

 

[The Geek]

ITT=MIT! Lol, i've never heard that one before.

Anyway, I'm curious as to why A&P isn't recommended. I know you'll cover it once you begin, but I would think it'll be helpful to have some prior knowledge coming in.

 

[schrizto]

I would think PA applicants have it easier because they take the GRE instead of the MCAT. The GRE is much easier compared to the MCAT.

 

[Beta Cell]

I would think PA applicants have it easier because they take the GRE instead of the MCAT. The GRE is much easier compared to the MCAT.

Definitely!

 

[Beta Cell]

ITT=MIT! Lol, i've never heard that one before.

Anyway, I'm curious as to why A&P isn't recommended. I know you'll cover it once you begin, but I would think it'll be helpful to have some prior knowledge coming in.

Lol, I just made that one up, but I even made myself laugh after I had typed it.

 

[chman]

I would think PA applicants have it easier because they take the GRE instead of the MCAT. The GRE is much easier compared to the MCAT.

I would agree, that is the one aspect that is harder about med school admissions. It really depends on the school as well. I think the main thing is the sheer number of applicants to PA schools compared to the amount of spots. The PA profession has gotten a lot of exposure lately, and some people see it as a shortcut to becoming a doctor (not saying that is the right view at all, but some people do think that). Anytime there are a lot of people for few spots it is going to get hard to get in.

 

[apumic]

ITT=MIT! Lol, i've never heard that one before.

Anyway, I'm curious as to why A&P isn't recommended. I know you'll cover it once you begin, but I would think it'll be helpful to have some prior knowledge coming in.

A&P's not likely to hurt you in admissions but it won't really help either. I believe it was USC that actually has on their website somewhere that applicants w/ A&P are not preferred. Likely, though, this statement is really saying that A&P is unnecessary (not that it'll hurt your app). Basically, med schools want to see your studies extending beyond what you'll be studying in med school. OTH, I've had a number of med students tell me that those who did take upper division anatomy and upper division physio in UG tend to find med school A&P much more doable since they aren't learning all 2000+ of those terms in the first 2 months of med school.