prescribing psychologists/NPs

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I have a question that is genuinely prompted by ignorance, not because I want to play devil's advocate.

Prescribing psychologists/NP pose obvious, huge patient safety issues. Full stop. And supervising these practitioners also presents many potential liability issues. But are there other reasons why people are opposed to prescribing psychologists and NPs? Not that there need to be - again, obvious safety issues. But I am wondering if there are other concerns. I can't imagine they pose a real threat to psychiatrists job security given the overall psychiatrist shortage, but I could be wrong.

Just curious.

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The primary reason people are against mid-levels is because of job security. Claims of "patient safety" are merely a cover for turf/scope of practice issues. Which is not to say that there may or may not be patient safety issues (many NPs are terrible, but there are good ones too). There are many terrible psychiatrists who pose a threat to patient safety and you never hear psychiatrists up in arms about them. prescribing psychologists is a separate issue to some extent as there are so few of those they do not currently pose an existential threat to psychiatrists. In fact many psychologists argue that prescribing psychologists pose an existential threat to the field of psychology by fundamentally changing the role of psychologists for the worst. I am against psychologists prescribing because I don't believe we need more people pushing toxic drugs, there is already lack of availability of good quality evidence-based psychotherapy, the psychopharm programs that exist are all garbage and totally inadequate, and only the worst psychologists seem to be interested in prescribing.

BTW, psychiatrists and PCPs are losing their jobs to NPs all the time. they are usually cheaper, more easy to manipulate, and they generate more money for hospital systems because they order consults on everyone and lots of unnecessary investigations which is $$$$ for hospitals. Many employers prefer NPs to psychiatrists. Also there are many psychiatrists in private practice who hire NPs because they can be a money maker. My own academic institution has taken the unfortunate step of employing NPs instead of psychiatrists for some positions. I think NPs can have their place, but they need to know their place, be open to supervision, they need to have a good amount of experience, the more years of psych nursing experience the better, dual FNP/PMHNP trained ones are better, and you need to train them in your mold and they should a specific role and not be left to see a large undifferentiated patient population. The bad ones are fresh out of training, arrogant, don't know what they don't know, don't want to be supervised, having little or no RN experience, think they are just as good if not better than psychiatrists, and want to be called "doctor." going to a name brand institution is no guarantee of quality, in fact many of the worst ones seem to think their DNP from yale/ucsf/hopkins/penn/insert name-brand institution means they know what they are doing and makes them dangerous. and of course 23 states have total independent practice for NPs so they don't need supervision. In oregon they even bill the same as psychiatrists and family physicians.
 
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The primary reason people are against mid-levels is because of job security. Claims of "patient safety" are merely a cover for turf/scope of practice issues. Which is not to say that there may or may not be patient safety issues (many NPs are terrible, but there are good ones too). There are many terrible psychiatrists who pose a threat to patient safety and you never hear psychiatrists up in arms about them. prescribing psychologists is a separate issue to some extent as there are so few of those they do not currently pose an existential threat to psychiatrists. In fact many psychologists argue that prescribing psychologists pose an existential threat to the field of psychology by fundamentally changing the role of psychologists for the worst. I am against psychologists prescribing because I don't believe we need more people pushing toxic drugs, there is already lack of availability of good quality evidence-based psychotherapy, the psychopharm programs that exist are all garbage and totally inadequate, and only the worst psychologists seem to be interested in prescribing.

BTW, psychiatrists and PCPs are losing their jobs to NPs all the time. they are usually cheaper, more easy to manipulate, and they generate more money for hospital systems because they order consults on everyone and lots of unnecessary investigations which is $$$$ for hospitals. Many employers prefer NPs to psychiatrists. Also there are many psychiatrists in private practice who hire NPs because they can be a money maker. My own academic institution has taken the unfortunate step of employing NPs instead of psychiatrists for some positions. I think NPs can have their place, but they need to know their place, be open to supervision, they need to have a good amount of experience, the more years of psych nursing experience the better, dual FNP/PMHNP trained ones are better, and you need to train them in your mold and they should a specific role and not be left to see a large undifferentiated patient population. The bad ones are fresh out of training, arrogant, don't know what they don't know, don't want to be supervised, having little or no RN experience, think they are just as good if not better than psychiatrists, and want to be called "doctor." going to a name brand institution is no guarantee of quality, in fact many of the worst ones seem to think their DNP from yale/ucsf/hopkins/penn/insert name-brand institution means they know what they are doing and makes them dangerous. and of course 23 states have total independent practice for NPs so they don't need supervision. In oregon they even bill the same as psychiatrists and family physicians.
This was my biggest concern applying for psychiatry, and I have been warned about it by mentors at my school. Maybe it’s my ego, but I am pretty bummed I’m going into a field that has such a strong mid level presence; it made me seriously consider a different specialty.
 
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The primary reason people are against mid-levels is because of job security. Claims of "patient safety" are merely a cover for turf/scope of practice issues.
This is certainly not universally true.
 
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This was my biggest concern applying for psychiatry, and I have been warned about it by mentors at my school. Maybe it’s my ego, but I am pretty bummed I’m going into a field that has such a strong mid level presence; it made me seriously consider a different specialty.

Splik got most right. Tho IMO field is not really like primary care and it’s not nearly as alarming: much lower overhead and much lower managed care penetrence, and much larger and older cash pay pp culture, and a much lower reliance on large insurances like Medicare. In the 80s and 90s managed care era, Primary care got bought out by hospitals because hospitals got the facilities fee loophole and offered pay bumps and cash, for psychiatry the situation was very different. For the 40-60% cash practices, in network contract reimbursement rates were never relevant in the first place. They are always paid on market. Hospitals never bought psychiatry practices because firstly they weren’t worth much, and secondly they can’t offer to match or pay more because insurances never offered carve outs for mental health until very recently.

The situation hasn’t changed much since then IMO, and partially has gotten in our favor recently because of the shortage and subtle insurance changes (ie therapy add on codes), as facilities are now offering MDs higher salaries, presumably because people in PP are making even MORE money. In resourceful PPs, invariably the MDs take only cash and the NPs take insurance (and make profit). This shows that wealthier patients would rather pay cash than use insurance for NPs.

MDs have advantages. If I was a service chief I know that MDs can do consults, ER shifts, inpatient outpatient IOP etc etc and see a variety of patients anywhere from worried well to psychotic. So any hole to be plug can be plugged. NPs are typically very limited to outpatient, low severity cases, unless they have specialized experience, which is relatively rare. I would not be worried about this as a trainee. In specific cases yes hospitals hired NPs and MDs got fired. I’ve heard it, it has happened. It will happen. But that’s neither here nor there.
 
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NPs are typically very limited to outpatient, low severity cases, unless they have specialized experience, which is relatively rare. I would not be worried about this as a trainee. In specific cases yes hospitals hired NPs and MDs got fired. I’ve heard it, it has happened. It will happen. But that’s neither here nor there.

I’ve not found this to be true, but at the same time, midlevels are invading most fields. Psych, primary care, ob/gyn, derm, aesthetics, anesthesia, IM sub-specialties, etc are all being invaded. I’ve known multiple psychiatrists that have been terminated to hire NP’s. A large peds practice in DFW was bought, and they terminated over a dozen pediatricians in 1 day.

NP’s are being used as primary psych at inpatient centers, addiction programs, consults, private practice, etc. This is a big problem in medicine as a whole, not just psych.
 
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The primary reason people are against mid-levels is because of job security. Claims of "patient safety" are merely a cover for turf/scope of practice issues

Perhaps in your circle, not in mine. I'm sick of seeing 50-year-old house wives on Adderall and Xanax. Most often such egregious regimens come from NPs, but whether it's an NP or an MD, safety is my concern, not job security.

There are many terrible psychiatrists who pose a threat to patient safety and you never hear psychiatrists up in arms about them

Again, in your circle. Many psychiatrists where I trained were up in arms about a specific group practice in town made up of mostly MDs. It took a while, but they were eventually under federal raid and shut down. That was a celebratory day for the rest of us.

NPs are typically very limited to outpatient, low severity cases, unless they have specialized experience, which is relatively rare

Not in my experience. I work at a major academic institution where NPs and PAs are on every inpatient service, from medicine to neurology to trauma surgery, thoracic surgery, and neurosurgery to the ICU.
 
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Midlevels are flourishing at the institutions our program is affiliated with. The overwhelming majority of hiring over the last year or two has been hiring of midlevels, not physicians, particularly at the county hospital but nearly equally so at the private academic center. This is particularly true in the outpatient clinics.
 
I'll be honest, I've replaced a physician at every position I've taken so far. That said, I've replaced some pretty appalling physicians (example - docs who wouldn't get their notes in for 2-3 weeks, doctors who would round for 3 minutes on the inpatient unit and leave - these guys refused to do any family meetings, turned off their phone and refuse to answer phone calls from RNs on the unit who need emergent meds. It was absolutely nuts and that's why they were replaced.) I'd also clarify that it's not just me replacing them, instead it's my group which is a mix of psychiatrists and psych NPs. As a psych NP we are definitely not confined to outpatient. We work uniformly alongside psychiatrists in emergency, consult, inpatient, and outpatient settings. I am not in an independent practice state, though. IME it's not that NPs are replacing physicians so much as solo docs with individual contracts are being replaced by larger groups with a mix of docs/NPs/PAs.
 
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There are really good reasons why we need to go through the training we do. No one should be able to independently diagnose and treat medical conditions without going through medical training. It's really that simple. Medical training is a special path for a reason. Otherwise we could just close med schools and fill the world with NPs and PAs since they are just cheaper.
 
Of the several clinical psychologists I've spoken to about this, none of them would be comfortable with prescribing medications.
 
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There are really good reasons why we need to go through the training we do. No one should be able to independently diagnose and treat medical conditions without going through medical training. It's really that simple. Medical training is a special path for a reason. Otherwise we could just close med schools and fill the world with NPs and PAs since they are just cheaper.
It blows my mind that we have gotten to the point where NPs have independent practice rights in any state. We let people practice medicine without going to medical school... what. I feel that in psych we have the most to lose from NP expansion compared to other medical fields. You're not going to see an NP taking a surgeon's, cardiologist's, or radiologist's job: this fact makes me wonder if i made the right specialty choice despite my interest in this field over all others
 
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What about anesthesiologists?
It blows my mind that we have gotten to the point where NPs have independent practice rights in any state. We let people practice medicine without going to medical school... what. I feel that in psych we have the most to lose from NP expansion compared to other medical fields. You're not going to see an NP taking a surgeon's, cardiologist's, or radiologist's job: this fact makes me wonder if i made the right specialty choice despite my interest in this field over all others
 
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With CRNA's, there is usually an anesthesiologist supervising several rooms to be their for induction and emergence and anything in between where it gets complex.
Not so with other midlevel treatment.
 
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the future in medicine may not change in 5 years but in 10 years who knows with the amazon, walmarts, cvs/walgreens all having outpatinet clinics full of guess who NPs galore. You actually think once walmart and amazon get in the business they won't sway their lobbyists and washington and whatever states to give all NPs everywhere full autonomy becuase it would be hugely advantageous for them!!!!

Make your money now, save and invest like as much as possible because after 10 years who knows what the landscape will be. That is why my goal is to be able to be in position to retire in 10 years from now but realistically i won't actually retire... I would encourage all to live like a resident for the next 5-10 years or until they hit Fat Fire which i believe all of you can if you live like a resident for the next 5 years and 10 years if you want to be set for life.

For those single people out there you should be able to live on 3k a month easily and well. Good luck and I hope you save well until the doom and gloom truly hits.. the countdown begins so work hard and earn and invest all you can... 10 years left... tick tock...
 
It blows my mind that we have gotten to the point where NPs have independent practice rights in any state. We let people practice medicine without going to medical school... what. I feel that in psych we have the most to lose from NP expansion compared to other medical fields. You're not going to see an NP taking a surgeon's, cardiologist's, or radiologist's job: this fact makes me wonder if i made the right specialty choice despite my interest in this field over all others
don't kid yourself... there are NPs doing "cardiology fellowships", derm NPs with cash only private practices focusing on aesthetics, GI NPs doing colonoscopies, radiology techs are fighting to be able to read imaging (though outsourcing to other countries is the main issue with rads), CRNAs in anesthesiology, podiatrists doing surgery previously done by vascular, optometrists can do some eye surgeries in some states etc. The main reason there are more psych NPs (and remember fewer than 3% of NPs specialize in mental health and most NPs working in mental health are not psych NPs) is because there is a enormous demand for mental health which is just not true in procedural specialties. The flip side is the market is wide open in psychiatry and you can get a job wherever you want. Not true in surgery, cards, or radiology etc. you can't eat your cake and have it too. it's basic economics. physicians have limited supply for so long that of course people were going to find ways to circumvent this. I contend that this is the greatest time to be a psychiatrist since the 1970s. even at the current rate of explosion of NP programs, it will take at least 40 years for the number of psych NPs to outnumber psychiatrists. imho, those psychiatrists who relegated alot of the work in the field to being a "prescriber" sealed their own fate and that for many psychiatrists.

With CRNA's, there is usually an anesthesiologist supervising several rooms to be their for induction and emergence and anything in between where it gets complex.
Not so with other midlevel treatment.
CRNAs have independent practice and may be completely unsupervised in 27 states....
 
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imho, those psychiatrists who relegated alot of the work in the field to being a "prescriber" sealed their own fate and that for many psychiatrists.

Can you explain what this means? What should a psychiatrist do to stand out from being a "prescriber"?
 
The total numbers of medical psychologists is like 200 nationwide. I wouldn’t think that such numbers are a significant threat to psychiatry.
 
don't kid yourself... there are NPs doing "cardiology fellowships", derm NPs with cash only private practices focusing on aesthetics, GI NPs doing colonoscopies, radiology techs are fighting to be able to read imaging (though outsourcing to other countries is the main issue with rads), CRNAs in anesthesiology, podiatrists doing surgery previously done by vascular, optometrists can do some eye surgeries in some states etc. The main reason there are more psych NPs (and remember fewer than 3% of NPs specialize in mental health and most NPs working in mental health are not psych NPs) is because there is a enormous demand for mental health which is just not true in procedural specialties. The flip side is the market is wide open in psychiatry and you can get a job wherever you want. Not true in surgery, cards, or radiology etc. you can't eat your cake and have it too. it's basic economics. physicians have limited supply for so long that of course people were going to find ways to circumvent this. I contend that this is the greatest time to be a psychiatrist since the 1970s. even at the current rate of explosion of NP programs, it will take at least 40 years for the number of psych NPs to outnumber psychiatrists. imho, those psychiatrists who relegated alot of the work in the field to being a "prescriber" sealed their own fate and that for many psychiatrists.


CRNAs have independent practice and may be completely unsupervised in 27 states....
The problem with psych NPs is that they can provide the same exact services as a psychiatrist with a fraction of the training. In cards, surgery, et cetera they are not performing the same procedures as the MD, and they never will achieve that level of autonomy. You won't ever see an NP stenting arteries or repairing an aneurysm. Sure they may be refilling meds started by the specialist or doing post op follow up visits, but from my experience the MDs dont want to deal with this stuff.
 
The problem with psych NPs is that they can provide the same exact services as a psychiatrist with a fraction of the training. In cards, surgery, et cetera they are not performing the same procedures as the MD, and they never will achieve that level of autonomy. You won't ever see an NP stenting arteries or repairing an aneurysm. Sure they may be refilling meds started by the specialist or doing post op follow up visits, but from my experience the MDs dont want to deal with this stuff.
I think the bolded and especially the underlined are highly debatable among experts (physicians) if my time on this site is anything to go by.
 
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I think the bolded and especially the underlined are highly debatable among experts (physicians) if my time on this site is anything to go by.
It's certainly reasonable to say the quality of services may not be the same... but what does a psychiatrist do that a NP cannot? NPs can have their own PP. NPs can work on inpatient units. They can start and manage meds. They can do therapy. Psych is a field that is ripe for NP take over (as well as primary care). It's a bit disheartening that psychiatrists have dedicated so much time toward their career while NPs that took some online classes and have relatively little clinical experience are allowed to essentially perform the same job.
 
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The problem with psych NPs is that they can provide the same exact services as a psychiatrist with a fraction of the training. In cards, surgery, et cetera they are not performing the same procedures as the MD, and they never will achieve that level of autonomy. You won't ever see an NP stenting arteries or repairing an aneurysm. Sure they may be refilling meds started by the specialist or doing post op follow up visits, but from my experience the MDs dont want to deal with this stuff.

It's certainly reasonable to say the quality of services may not be the same... but what does a psychiatrist do that a NP cannot? NPs can have their own PP. NPs can work on inpatient units. They can start and manage meds. They can do therapy. Psych is a field that is ripe for NP take over (as well as primary care). It's a bit disheartening that psychiatrists have dedicated so much time toward their career while NPs that took some online classes and have relatively little clinical experience are allowed to essentially perform the same job.

By your logic, ground beef and filet mignon are the "same exact" thing because they both come from cow. So why would anyone pay extra for a prime cut from a fancy steak house when you can get a burger for $2 at a fast food joint. Why buy name brand clothing and pay more when you can buy Walmart clothing? After all, they're just fabric.

These are just food and clothing, which are a lot less important than health. Yet, lots of people pay a premium for better quality.

If you really believe what you say, then maybe you should apply to surgery.
 
By your logic, ground beef and filet mignon are the "same exact" thing because they both come from cow. So why would anyone pay extra for a prime cut from a fancy steak house when you can get a burger for $2 at a fast food joint. Why buy name brand clothing and pay more when you can buy Walmart clothing? After all, they're just fabric.

These are just food and clothing, which are a lot less important than health. Yet, lots of people pay a premium for better quality.

If you really believe what you say, then maybe you should apply to surgery.
I mean I agree that psychiatrists provide a higher quality of care. I don't even think NPs should be allowed to practice independently at all. If someone wants to practice medicine I think they should go to medical school. I'm just saying that in a legal sense they have the right to provide the same treatments; I don't think midlevels should have this freedom but they do.
 
I mean I agree that psychiatrists provide a higher quality of care. I don't even think NPs should be allowed to practice independently at all. If someone wants to practice medicine I think they should go to medical school. I'm just saying that in a legal sense they have the right to provide the same treatments; I don't think midlevels should have this freedom but they do.
And I believe that their competition and willingness to work for lower wages than physicians has the ability to drive our income potential down in the future.
 
It's certainly reasonable to say the quality of services may not be the same... but what does a psychiatrist do that a NP cannot?
NPs do not have admitting privileges. in many states it is illegal for NPs to be admitting patients without physician oversight and at any rate, CMS requires an attending physician be the physician of record for hospital patients so hospitals are for all intents and purposes required to have NPs admitting under a physician. NPs cannot do ECT. NPs are not doing competency or criminal responsibility evaluations. NPs can do psychotherapy but require extensive additional training and in some states are dually licensed as therapists if they are doing therapy. NPs are not running memory clinics or behavioral neurology/neuropsychiatry clinics. their roles on psychiatry consult services at major hospitals or academic centers tend to be different than that of psychiatrists. they cannot be medical review officers (MROs). they cannot do IMEs (independent mental examinations). they cannot do sex offender evaluations. they are not usually being referred treatment-refractory or complex patients for second opinions.

If you want to provide mediocre care as a one trick pony, feeding drugs to the masses, then yes, you can and will be replaced by an NP. If you want to work as a cog in a system that sees you as expendable, then you can and will be replaced as an NP. you are comparing psychiatry to saturate fields in which the reason there is little competition from NPs is because they have too many specialists. the current status of psychiatry is there is enormous demand for our services, and as many psychiatrists have abandoned the mentally ill as well as underserved areas, NPs have come in to try to fill that gap (which is nowhere near closing). As mentioned above, even with the explosion of NPs coming out now it will take at least 40 yrs for psych NPs to outnumber psychiatrists. Whether this will be good or bad, I will not comment on. But it would force the field to do some necessary soul searching and redefine what we do. It was not so long ago that only MDs were allowed to do psychotherapy, and psychoanalysis in particular. Now, psychologists, social workers, counselors, MFTs and dogs are doing therapy but apparently there is still a demand for psychiatrists to do psychotherapy. I don't even prescribe medications.
 
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I don't really think we need to be some niche specialists to start justifying our training. Most of what's on spliks list isn't really in high demand. Doing mostly general psychiatry and "prescribing meds" isn't necessarily being a one trick pony or doing mediocre work. It takes skill in diagnosis and treatment to get it right, whether outpt or inpt, and not all psychiatrists even get it right there, nevermind nps. Yet NPs have the legal right to practice general psychiatry in the community. The bottom point is that they should never be practicing medicine without supervision.

n=1, my program has gone to replace an NP with an attending on the inpt unit. She was bad.
 
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I don't really think we need to be some niche specialists to start justifying our training. Most of what's on spliks list isn't really in high demand. Doing mostly general psychiatry and "prescribing meds" isn't necessarily being a one trick pony or doing mediocre work. It takes skill in diagnosis and treatment to get it right, whether outpt or inpt, and not all psychiatrists even get it right there, nevermind nps. Yet NPs have the legal right to practice general psychiatry in the community. The bottom point is that they should never be practicing medicine without supervision.

I don't think spliks point was that we need to justify our training.I think his point was if you practice just ok psychiatry and dont't branch out. That you will be replaced by an NP . I do agree with his point. I do think if psychiatry keeps up the image of the psychiatrist only being a prescriber. That this will lead to more mid levels in the field. Medication management is only one part of psychiatry.
 
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I don't think spliks point was that we need to justify our training.I think his point was if you practice just ok psychiatry and dont't branch out. That you will be replaced by an NP . I do agree with his point. I do think if psychiatry keeps up the image of the psychiatrist only being a prescriber. That this will lead to more mid levels in the field. Medication management is only one part of psychiatry.

The problem is that this seems to imply that general psychiatry is "being only a prescriber". That's really just a randabout way to insult general psychiatry. You need to have a set of skills to diagnose and treat correctly, one of which is to pick the right drug in the right circumstances, which is again NOT a piece of cake. We spend 4 years in residency to get there. The other problem in your post is that it implies that somehow you need to "branch out" for one to do a proper job as a psychiatrist ; that is certainly not synonymous at all with providing quality care. We're probably doing a disservice to the field thinking this way.
 
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CRNAs have independent practice and may be completely unsupervised in 27 states....[/QUOTE]
---------------
You havent seen the malpractice cases?
When they are sued the physician in charge of the case (ophthalmologist, surgeon) as they are considered the "captain of the ship", even when they are supposedly "unsupervised."

Nurses are also held to a lower standard as they are held to nursing standards. But the physician is not.
If something happens in the OR, the surgeon will be running codes, not the CRna.
 
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I think its going to be increasingly important to find a way to demonstrate that you are worth more, either in quality or volume or both. I work in a system that is very assertive around optimizing cost and resources, and employs many NP's and PA's, but also continues to pay doctors well. If I look at the differences between what I and my physician colleagues do, it includes:

1) Volume. We generate many, many more RVU's than the NP's. It is possible that this difference will be smaller in the future, and that with experience the difference will be less pronounced, but as of now, it is pronounced. I attribute this to having the clinical experience needed to optimize clinical interactions effectively, and being able to gather essential data in a way that still allows a good decision to be made and the patient to feel like they are receiving good care. Even the experienced NP's in our Psych ED take more time to accomplish their task.

2) Teaching. As long as an institution maintains some commitment to medical student and resident education, this will be a way that we contribute value. Institutions benefit from academic affiliation (e.g. "New Haven Hospital" wouldn't sound as impressive) and there is a cost to this.

3) Quality. Here, I'm not thinking of the examples of bad prescribing/crazy med regimens, but things like how often risk management is getting involved with cases, how frequently patients are getting stuck in the hospital, the number of complaints from patients and families, the need for senior leadership to intervene, the frequency of medical send outs (which certainly don't save our hospital any money). One way quality clearly manifests in inpatient settings is that plans are developed and executed, and patient and family expectations managed within the amount of time that insurance will support. Even new doctors lose the hospital a huge amount of money by lacking the clinical skill to to do this effectively.

Our system values the fact that they can pay doctors a lot of money to do a lot of work well, and that they are not often going to have to address problems. Our NPs do much less. If they got to the point that their experience allowed them to provide the same amount of clinical care with the same degree of independence and 'quality', I would start to expect less of a difference in salary.

I don't think spliks point was that we need to justify our training.I think his point was if you practice just ok psychiatry and dont't branch out. That you will be replaced by an NP . I do agree with his point. I do think if psychiatry keeps up the image of the psychiatrist only being a prescriber. That this will lead to more mid levels in the field. Medication management is only one part of psychiatry.
 
CRNAs have independent practice and may be completely unsupervised in 27 states....
---------------
You havent seen the malpractice cases?
When they are sued the physician in charge of the case (ophthalmologist, surgeon) as they are considered the "captain of the ship", even when they are supposedly "unsupervised."

Nurses are also held to a lower standard as they are held to nursing standards. But the physician is not.
If something happens in the OR, the surgeon will be running codes, not the CRna.[/QUOTE]

If they are practicing independently and there is no legally supervising physician, how are they choosing a physician to sue? Names from a hat?
 
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You havent seen the malpractice cases?
When they are sued the physician in charge of the case (ophthalmologist, surgeon) as they are considered the "captain of the ship", even when they are supposedly "unsupervised."

Nurses are also held to a lower standard as they are held to nursing standards. But the physician is not.
If something happens in the OR, the surgeon will be running codes, not the CRna.

If they are practicing independently and there is no legally supervising physician, how are they choosing a physician to sue? Names from a hat?[/QUOTE]
Have you dealt with lawyers in a malpractice case? They go after the deepest pockets. The surgeon on the case is "caaptain of the ship" on everything.
Midlevels have their cake and eat it too..
 
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If they are practicing independently and there is no legally supervising physician, how are they choosing a physician to sue? Names from a hat?
Have you dealt with lawyers in a malpractice case? They go after the deepest pockets. The surgeon on the case is "caaptain of the ship" on everything.
Midlevels have their cake and eat it too..[/QUOTE]

You still have to name defendants and articulate a theory of the case that links those defendants to the tort in some fashion.

If they are suing the surgeon for something anesthesia does why would it matter whether they were working with a mid-level or MD anesthesiologist? This doesn't seem like a great reason to object to mid-levels or relevant to their independent practice.
 
NPs do not have admitting privileges. in many states it is illegal for NPs to be admitting patients without physician oversight and at any rate, CMS requires an attending physician be the physician of record for hospital patients so hospitals are for all intents and purposes required to have NPs admitting under a physician. NPs cannot do ECT. NPs are not doing competency or criminal responsibility evaluations. NPs can do psychotherapy but require extensive additional training and in some states are dually licensed as therapists if they are doing therapy. NPs are not running memory clinics or behavioral neurology/neuropsychiatry clinics. their roles on psychiatry consult services at major hospitals or academic centers tend to be different than that of psychiatrists. they cannot be medical review officers (MROs). they cannot do IMEs (independent mental examinations). they cannot do sex offender evaluations. they are not usually being referred treatment-refractory or complex patients for second opinions.

If you want to provide mediocre care as a one trick pony, feeding drugs to the masses, then yes, you can and will be replaced by an NP. If you want to work as a cog in a system that sees you as expendable, then you can and will be replaced as an NP. you are comparing psychiatry to saturate fields in which the reason there is little competition from NPs is because they have too many specialists. the current status of psychiatry is there is enormous demand for our services, and as many psychiatrists have abandoned the mentally ill as well as underserved areas, NPs have come in to try to fill that gap (which is nowhere near closing). As mentioned above, even with the explosion of NPs coming out now it will take at least 40 yrs for psych NPs to outnumber psychiatrists. Whether this will be good or bad, I will not comment on. But it would force the field to do some necessary soul searching and redefine what we do. It was not so long ago that only MDs were allowed to do psychotherapy, and psychoanalysis in particular. Now, psychologists, social workers, counselors, MFTs and dogs are doing therapy but apparently there is still a demand for psychiatrists to do psychotherapy. I don't even prescribe medications.
I’m curious do you not prescribe medication because that’s not your role in your current job or do you not prescribe because you don’t think benefits of medications outweigh their risks?
 
Since money is the only thing that’s respected I would love to see the cost of ****ty prescribing studied. Looking at the cost of medications to Medicare/Medicaid and the cost of the treating the complications of medications. I agree with splik that this a hole dug by psychiatrists who wanted to “manage medications” (barf) and not admister effective treatment.
 
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-There will always be room for a quality Psychiatrist who takes insurance to be sought after for med management. Just last week I had one patient expressly vent frustrations of a PA who was PCP, and FNP prior to that. Patient wanted a quality, expert consult, and recognized the health history was complex enough to need this expertise. As midlevels continue to expand so too will the patient recognition of inadequacy.
-If I understood Splik right, (s)he is a proponent of the classic Psychiatrist who does a cash practice emphasizing therapy as an ideal area for Psychiatrists to go (niche perhaps?).
-I am going the other end of the spectrum and intend to emphasize a Neurostimulation practice. ECT privileges, with TMS, and Ketamine infusions (but we'll see how the nasal ketamine shakes down in coming months if IV is still needed at all). Essentially, a practice that gets results.
 
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I have some genuine questions, possibly borderline sounding obtuse.

You hear about people saying, "This practice has XX number of PAs/NPs and only Y number of doctors." Does that mean they refused to hire more physicians or were they simply unable to?

Are there places where physicians have applied, but been turned down to work there due to midlevels? Are there places that openly state they would rather hire midlevels over physicians?
 
I have some genuine questions, possibly borderline sounding obtuse.

You hear about people saying, "This practice has XX number of PAs/NPs and only Y number of doctors." Does that mean they refused to hire more physicians or were they simply unable to?

Are there places where physicians have applied, but been turned down to work there due to midlevels? Are there places that openly state they would rather hire midlevels over physicians?

I’ve seen multiple psychiatrists fired upon hiring midlevel replacements.
 
is it too late to change specialties as an m4 waiting to match (only half joking)

I really wouldn't worry. I get daily recruitment emails as a third year resident (on a visa). The job market is great, everywhere in the country, even in comparison to other specialties.

On a more personal note, I also have faith in our training. It's absurd to think someone who lacks our rigorous medical training can provide the same product.

It's fashionable to s*** on the medical model because it hasn't held up to our lofty expectations of curing mental illness, but the bottom line is that it's indispensable and has certainly fared better than anything else.

No one can predict what is going to happen in 20 years but I would take apocalyptic projections with a grain of salt.
 
honestly, in the area I live, hospitals are definitely hiring more midlevels than MDs because it costs them less. Ironically, private practices are getting bought out too.... Kind of sucks because it feels like there is no strong ground for psychiatrists unless we go to places where there is "acute shortage" like midwest...... Maybe i'm biased because my experience is purely based on a very geographically limited area... but it's still sad :(
 
With CRNA's, there is usually an anesthesiologist supervising several rooms to be their for induction and emergence and anything in between where it gets complex.
Not so with other midlevel treatment.

There's actually quite a few stories on the anesthesia forums as well about people getting their practices replaced by essentially CRNA with minimal MD supervision groups. There are literally anesthesia groups owned by CRNAs and CRNA-only anesthesia groups. Anesthesia is actually probably the speciality feeling the most heat out of all the specialities since CRNAs have been so entrenched for such a long time. Interestingly, the sky's been falling there for a long time and anesthesia salaries have remained pretty solid.
 
Outpatient is actually where I think doctors are able to differentiate themselves from NPs pretty drastically (mostly with high quality care and marketing). When you're in the hospital, you don't get to choose who's rounding on you or running your service. Our hospital literally has NPs for every single service, there's NP hospitalist teams, NP heme-onc teams, NP SICU teams, etc etc. Sure, there's an attending "supervising" them but if those NPs didn't exist they'd probably be hiring a couple more MDs to spread that work out instead of 1 to sign off on 3 NPs notes. A lot of hospitals are just realizing they can bring the anesthesia model onboard to the rest of the hospital (e.g. 1:4 MD:NP/PA "supervision), which is why you're hearing all this "oh no the hospital just keeps bringing in more and more NPs!". They're doing what's been happening in anesthesia for quite some time now.
 
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Wow. That is disgusting.

honestly, in the area I live, hospitals are definitely hiring more midlevels than MDs because it costs them less. Ironically, private practices are getting bought out too.... Kind of sucks because it feels like there is no strong ground for psychiatrists unless we go to places where there is "acute shortage" like midwest...... Maybe i'm biased because my experience is purely based on a very geographically limited area... but it's still sad :(

Hospitals don't matter. Vast majority of psych jobs are 1) not affiliated with a hospital. 2) outpatient. 3) if inpatient, run by private groups. 4) govt.
None of these jobs can be easily replaced by NP for a variety of reasons, some financial, some regulatory.

Hospitals are losing money and doing desperate things.
 
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When it comes to marketing, midlevels are much better at that. Physicians are too busy learning pesky doctor things.
 
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Is this something to be genuinely worried about as a Med student?
 
Is this something to be genuinely worried about as a Med student?
I say no. It still seems very easy to me to get a good psychiatry job. In fact, earnings are up 16% in 2018:

Medscape said:
Psychiatrists reported among the largest gains in compensation this year, followed by plastic surgeons and physiatrists. Medscape's results align with industry data regarding psychiatry. "We have never seen demand for psychiatrists this high in our 30-year history," says Tommy Bohannon of Merritt Hawkins, a physician recruiting firm. "Demand for mental health services has exploded, while the number of psychiatrists has not kept pace."
(Just Google "psychiatry salary data 2018" and the link should appear. Seems to be access issues with copying the link myself.)
 
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