Prestige Versus Education

[sexyman]

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http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5046

This is an interesting article written by one of my favorite writers from capmag, Thomas Sowell.

It is VERY SHORT- no excuses not to read it!

 

[GreenShirt]

Unfortunately, striving for "perceived" prestige is the norm. If I knew what I know now when I applied to college, I would have picked my state school rather than the most prestigious college I got into. Although, it would have been very hard to convince me otherwise.

 

[sexyman]

I posted it because I feel most if not all of is said in the article also applies to appying to med schools as well. No sense in making the same mistake twice...

 

[UIC Killa]

I posted it because I feel most if not all of is said in the article also applies to appying to med schools as well. No sense in making the same mistake twice...

I dont think it applies directly...undergraduate studies does not apply directly to graduate/professional schools. Look at Law school...Harvard Law is definitely a HUUUUGE advantage over Joe Shmoe Law School...undergrad on the other hand maybe a bit different..

 

[TexasTriathlete]

With med schools it doesn't matter, because that isn't your ultimate level of education. You still have post-grad training (i.e., residency, fellowship, etc.), and it is all on-the-job training, and you are evaluated by physicians from start to finish. With law school, there is much less post-grad training, so they tend to work a little more off of where you went. For example, here in austin, the law firms are full of UT grads. Its a top-10 law school, and the people doing the hiring are also UT grads. The majority of the rest of them probably went to law school somewhere else in TX. If not, they probably went to one of the "big name" out of state schools.

Also, with law, it is a much less critical job. That is, mistakes in law are typically corrected easily. All the young lawyers are asked to do is research stuff, write briefs, and other stupid crap. Then the boss looks over it and tells them to change whatever he doesn't like. And that's that. Nobody dies. So they can afford to base who they hire on stupid stuff like what school someone went to.

With medicine, they want people who can do the job. Stupid mistakes in the OR or ER can be fatal, so it is more important to base who they hire on how good someone is at their job. That's why you have to work hard and impress a zillion attendings, residents, directors, etc. from the very beginning. Once you've proven yourself to be a good doctor, over a long period of time, they give you a real job, and by that time, you are so far removed from your med school campus that it just doesn't matter.

 

[mandinca]

With med schools it doesn't matter, because that isn't your ultimate level of education. You still have post-grad training (i.e., residency, fellowship, etc.), and it is all on-the-job training, and you are evaluated by physicians from start to finish. With law school, there is much less post-grad training, so they tend to work a little more off of where you went. For example, here in austin, the law firms are full of UT grads. Its a top-10 law school, and the people doing the hiring are also UT grads. The majority of the rest of them probably went to law school somewhere else in TX. If not, they probably went to one of the "big name" out of state schools.

Also, with law, it is a much less critical job. That is, mistakes in law are typically corrected easily. All the young lawyers are asked to do is research stuff, write briefs, and other stupid crap. Then the boss looks over it and tells them to change whatever he doesn't like. And that's that. Nobody dies. So they can afford to base who they hire on stupid stuff like what school someone went to.

With medicine, they want people who can do the job. Stupid mistakes in the OR or ER can be fatal, so it is more important to base who they hire on how good someone is at their job. That's why you have to work hard and impress a zillion attendings, residents, directors, etc. from the very beginning. Once you've proven yourself to be a good doctor, over a long period of time, they give you a real job, and by that time, you are so far removed from your med school campus that it just doesn't matter.

Yup! One of the Pedi-Intensivists I've worked with put it like this, "Just get into med school, ANY med school. Then work extra hard while you're there so that you can get the residency you want. That's whats important!" 👍

 

[gordman]

Interesting article indeed. I would definitely go for education, after all, prestige is also based in that in most cases.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

If by "education" you mean "instructor quality" then I would say that prestige is rarely based on the quality of education. It has mostly to do with funding for research. That's not to say that the top ranked schools provide a bad education. Just that they aren't necessarily the best.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

To elaborate: two o-chem professors at UT. One, Dr. Meyer, is one of the best lecturers I have ever had. You can probably count on one hand the number of lecturers in the subject in the entire country who are better.

Another, Dr. Bauld, is probably the worst lecturer in the country in any subject. Maybe ever.

Dr. Meyer's only interest is in teaching. He has a slight physical handicap, and does not do research anymore.

Dr.Bauld is a great chemist and brings in the big bucks.

Which one do you think got let go?

 

[GreenShirt]

With med schools it doesn't matter, because that isn't your ultimate level of education. You still have post-grad training (i.e., residency, fellowship, etc.), and it is all on-the-job training, and you are evaluated by physicians from start to finish. With law school, there is much less post-grad training, so they tend to work a little more off of where you went. For example, here in austin, the law firms are full of UT grads. Its a top-10 law school, and the people doing the hiring are also UT grads. The majority of the rest of them probably went to law school somewhere else in TX. If not, they probably went to one of the "big name" out of state schools.

Also, with law, it is a much less critical job. That is, mistakes in law are typically corrected easily. All the young lawyers are asked to do is research stuff, write briefs, and other stupid crap. Then the boss looks over it and tells them to change whatever he doesn't like. And that's that. Nobody dies. So they can afford to base who they hire on stupid stuff like what school someone went to.

With medicine, they want people who can do the job. Stupid mistakes in the OR or ER can be fatal, so it is more important to base who they hire on how good someone is at their job. That's why you have to work hard and impress a zillion attendings, residents, directors, etc. from the very beginning. Once you've proven yourself to be a good doctor, over a long period of time, they give you a real job, and by that time, you are so far removed from your med school campus that it just doesn't matter.

Law training also happens mainly on the job. In law school they just teach you to think about law, while you'll actually learn the law when you get hired. The reason that law school is so competitive is that there is little weeding out prior to admission as there is with med school and there are more seats. So everyone and their mother is in law school, but there are only so many jobs. Only the top strata of each class will actually get a job once they finish, maybe the strata below as well if it's Harvard law.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Interesting article.

"You may never have heard of Harvey Mudd College but a higher percentage of its graduates go on to get Ph.D.s than do the graduates of Harvard, Yale, Stanford or M.I.T. So do the graduates of Grinnell, Reed, and various other small colleges."​

Maybe many graduates of the elite colleges go on to law or Wall Street financial jobs--which don't require PhDs.

"Of the chief executive officers of the 50 largest American corporations surveyed in 2006, only four had Ivy League degrees. Some -- including Michael Dell of Dell computers and Bill Gates of Microsoft -- had no degree at all."​

Ivy League is a very small # of schools, and doesn't include other top schools like Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Vanderbilt, etc. I wonder how many had degrees from expensive, elite schools?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

With med schools it doesn't matter, because that isn't your ultimate level of education. You still have post-grad training (i.e., residency, fellowship, etc.), and it is all on-the-job training, and you are evaluated by physicians from start to finish. With law school, there is much less post-grad training, so they tend to work a little more off of where you went. For example, here in austin, the law firms are full of UT grads. Its a top-10 law school, and the people doing the hiring are also UT grads. The majority of the rest of them probably went to law school somewhere else in TX. If not, they probably went to one of the "big name" out of state schools.

I wish UT were a top ten law school, but alas it's not a true. Last I looked it was ranked around 18. When I was there, it was solidly 15. People would say top 14 as a cutoff to exclude schools like UT, USC and UCLA. Not knocking UT (have shiny JD from them and all), but it's not Harvard. As a culture, the legal world is very prestige driven, so yes, one should almost always opt for the more prestigious school. However, I disagree that it's because legal work is less critical.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Interesting article.

"You may never have heard of Harvey Mudd College but a higher percentage of its graduates go on to get Ph.D.s than do the graduates of Harvard, Yale, Stanford or M.I.T. So do the graduates of Grinnell, Reed, and various other small colleges."​

Maybe many graduates of the elite colleges go on to law or Wall Street financial jobs--which don't require PhDs.

"Of the chief executive officers of the 50 largest American corporations surveyed in 2006, only four had Ivy League degrees. Some -- including Michael Dell of Dell computers and Bill Gates of Microsoft -- had no degree at all."​

Ivy League is a very small # of schools, and doesn't include other top schools like Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Vanderbilt, etc. I wonder how many had degrees from expensive, elite schools?

True, it seems like he's manipulating things to fit his argument. For example, Bill Gates doesn't have a degree, but he did go to Harvard. And Harvey Mudd is a very selective, prestigious school. It just doesn't impress your mom's friends as much as MIT. Maybe a prestigious private ugrad isn't necessarily worth the price of tuition, but it's facetious to say it gives no added value.

 

[Jack Daniel]

...Maybe a prestigious private ugrad isn't necessarily worth the price of tuition, but it's facetious to say it gives no added value.

I agree. In my opinion, I perceive the added value in elite schools to be the networking opportunities. The movers and shakers of the world often want their kids to go to elite schools. Simple as that, whether it's justified or not.

 

[plauto]

everything you guys say it's true. Hoewever, if you are going to be mainly a solo physician I believe the name of the school you graduated from it's important. I hear all the time among my relatives and friends that they are "relieved" when they go to a doctor's office and see he/she graduated from a prestigious place. Whether this is right or not, from a business standpoint I believe it makes a decent difference where you graduate from, especially if you are going to have your own private practice.

 

[sexyman]

Funny thing is how can most people be "relieved" when they don't even know what most of the "prestigious" medical schools are?

Ask a normal everyday person if they have heard of Mayo Clinic, University of Rochester, Washington University, Baylor, Emory, or even Johns Hopkins. They have no clue what your talking about.

 

[sexyman]

^ or even Jefferson, which is such an awesome school. When I told people I was visiting they didnt even know it was in Philadelphia.

 

[plauto]

Funny thing is how can most people be "relieved" when they don't even know what most of the "prestigious" medical schools are?

Ask a normal everyday person if they have heard of Mayo Clinic, University of Rochester, Washington University, Baylor, Emory, or even Johns Hopkins. They have no clue what your talking about.

You are very right. That is why I said strictly from a business standpoint and only if you want to go solo it might make a little difference.

Here in the tristate area we call Jefferson just Jeff (many commercials trying to emphasize the humane aspect of the hospital). So if you say Jeff everybody knows what you are talking about, if you say Thomas Jefferson Medical College some people have no idea

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Funny thing is how can most people be "relieved" when they don't even know what most of the "prestigious" medical schools are?

Ask a normal everyday person if they have heard of Mayo Clinic, University of Rochester, Washington University, Baylor, Emory, or even Johns Hopkins. They have no clue what your talking about.

When I started this process, I was surprised to hear that Baylor was such a great med school, and I live in TX. They are not affiliated with BU in waco, but I did not know that, and BU in waco is the Baptist school that rich parents send their spoiled problem kids to for college.

It is Baptist, and supposed to be a strong Christian environment, and there is some of that, but for the most part, what actually happens is that the guys and girls who were having sex and doing drugs at 12 years old end up there, and they all get together and go wild. Some of them grow up and mature eventually, but the school is not typically known for being a pillar of academic excellence.

Not that it is a bad school, and I'm sure you can get a great education there, with all the money they have. But all I know is that the chicks there are drunk a lot and they like lots of sex, and they aren't afraid to share this with you.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Funny thing is how can most people be "relieved" when they don't even know what most of the "prestigious" medical schools are?

Ask a normal everyday person if they have heard of Mayo Clinic, University of Rochester, Washington University, Baylor, Emory, or even Johns Hopkins. They have no clue what your talking about.

Except for senior citizens. These people know more about surgical procedures and hospitals than do MS1s. Sit down and ask someone in their 70s to talk about a pancreaticoduodenectomy and you'll be amazed.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I wish UT were a top ten law school, but alas it's not a true. Last I looked it was ranked around 18. When I was there, it was solidly 15. People would say top 14 as a cutoff to exclude schools like UT, USC and UCLA. Not knocking UT (have shiny JD from them and all), but it's not Harvard. As a culture, the legal world is very prestige driven, so yes, one should almost always opt for the more prestigious school. However, I disagree that it's because legal work is less critical.

If you're trying to get a job in TX, it might as well be Harvard. And I've seen rankings with it as high as top 5. It just depends on where you look.

 

[belichek]

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5046

This is an interesting article written by one of my favorite writers from capmag, Thomas Sowell.

It is VERY SHORT- no excuses not to read it!

this article is just meant to make those poor souls who go to 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier schools feel better about themselves. The bottom line is: a 3.5 from say columbia looks better than a 4.0 from say UCF.

 

[Jack Daniel]

If you're trying to get a job in TX, it might as well be Harvard. And I've seen rankings with it as high as top 5. It just depends on where you look.

I've lived quite a few years in South Carolina. I'd bet the folks down there would take a JD from USC who's a Gamecock fan any day of the year over someone from the nawth who graduated from a Kennedy's school.

I figure TX is similar in that they see no reason to go beyond their own schools.

 

[Jack Daniel]

this article is just meant to make those poor souls who go to 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier schools feel better about themselves. The bottom line is: a 3.5 from say columbia looks better than a 4.0 from say UCF.

Depends on the major, IMO. If the 3.5 is in education or criminal justice and the 4.0 is in something like philosophy or classical greek or physics...I think more credit is to the 4.0

In fact, I'd congratulate a 4.0 in any program. Kudos to someone who went through 4 years of college and never got less than an A in a class.

 

[sexyman]

Here in the tristate area we call Jefferson just Jeff (many commercials trying to emphasize the humane aspect of the hospital). So if you say Jeff everybody knows what you are talking about, if you say Thomas Jefferson Medical College some people have no idea

Yea, I'm from NJ and went to school ~20 min from "Jeff"- nobody knows "Jeff" either lol.

this article is just meant to make those poor souls who go to 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier schools feel better about themselves.

Interesting persective- if you go to a 2nd-4th tier school you are a poor soul...

and your dead wrong about a 4.0 being better than a 3.5 or a 3.0 being better than a 3.5 from a prestigious to not so prestigious school. That is a biiig jump .5 points on a gpa? please

 

[belichek]

Yea, I'm from NJ and went to school ~20 min from "Jeff"- nobody knows "Jeff" either lol.




Interesting persective- if you go to a 2nd-4th tier school you are a poor soul...

and your dead wrong about a 4.0 being better than a 3.5 or a 3.0 being better than a 3.5 from a prestigious to not so prestigious school. That is a biiig jump .5 points on a gpa? please

i was at columbia for a semester (my undergrad institution that i earned my degree in was also a top 40 tier 1 school but not top ten like columbia) I got a 3.3 at columbia for the semester whereas I had 3.7 avg at my other undergrad institution (with a few 4.0s'). I found the kids at columbia to be brighter, and more competive, and the tests were about 20x harder. So to say that it does not matter is wrong cuz it does.

 

[sexyman]

So you went to 2 schools and are extrapolating your experience to every other school in the country?

Does harder tests = better education to you?

 

[t-funk]

In my opinion from personal experiences, a 4.0 at a no name university trumps a 3.5 from an 'elite' university any day of the week. Now if you want to start talking about .2 - .3 GPA differences, that may be a different story. I have never been to a top 10 university but I did attend a rigorous engineering college with several programs that were ranked top 10, my program included. And although the tests were much harder and made you think more than at my state school, the teaching was just plain better and the curve was much higher to ensure that most people passed. I just think it's fruitless to try to compare the two and once you're in medical school, no one will care anyway. That's just my opinion though.

 

[superfan56]

I dont think it applies directly...undergraduate studies does not apply directly to graduate/professional schools. Look at Law school...Harvard Law is definitely a HUUUUGE advantage over Joe Shmoe Law School...undergrad on the other hand maybe a bit different..

I'd agree here

With med schools it doesn't matter, because that isn't your ultimate level of education. You still have post-grad training (i.e., residency, fellowship, etc.), and it is all on-the-job training, and you are evaluated by physicians from start to finish. With law school, there is much less post-grad training, so they tend to work a little more off of where you went. For example, here in austin, the law firms are full of UT grads. Its a top-10 law school, and the people doing the hiring are also UT grads. The majority of the rest of them probably went to law school somewhere else in TX. If not, they probably went to one of the "big name" out of state schools.

Also, with law, it is a much less critical job. That is, mistakes in law are typically corrected easily. All the young lawyers are asked to do is research stuff, write briefs, and other stupid crap. Then the boss looks over it and tells them to change whatever he doesn't like. And that's that. Nobody dies. So they can afford to base who they hire on stupid stuff like what school someone went to.

With medicine, they want people who can do the job. Stupid mistakes in the OR or ER can be fatal, so it is more important to base who they hire on how good someone is at their job. That's why you have to work hard and impress a zillion attendings, residents, directors, etc. from the very beginning. Once you've proven yourself to be a good doctor, over a long period of time, they give you a real job, and by that time, you are so far removed from your med school campus that it just doesn't matter.

I'd kind of disagree here, at the very end of the day, yeah, you work for what you get, but will you have to work harder than someone else? you can bet your ass on it. I went to a small liberal arts college went on to work admissions at an ivy league undergrad and saw the "connections" you PAY for through going to these schools.

As far as medical school goes, I was speaking to one of the deans at PCOM last week and he was telling me about PCOM's post graduate opportunities. In the D.O. world, you can't buy a name like PCOM.....

Texas, did you hear anything back from Drexel? I just got invited for an interview today.....


who in the heck reads capitalism magazine? hahaha

 

[Doctor Bagel]

If you're trying to get a job in TX, it might as well be Harvard. And I've seen rankings with it as high as top 5. It just depends on where you look.

I'm still doubtful especially considering that Big Tex firms won't talk to UT grads who are not in the top 1/3 of their class. I suspect the cutoff is a little more generous at Yale. And V&E feels sophisticated to have a few east coast peeps around. Still curious about where you've seen these rankings. I get all the brag magazines when they hit me up for money but still haven't seen anything legit that puts UT that high. Not saying UT doesn't have a good law school (again, I went there and all), but I doubt it gives you an advantage of top 10 grads even in Texas. Well aside from the much cheaper tuition.

 

[IUgrad]

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5046

This is an interesting article written by one of my favorite writers from capmag, Thomas Sowell.

It is VERY SHORT- no excuses not to read it!

👍 Great article!

I completely agree (at least at the undergrad level, you all make good points beyond that).
I've never once regretted going to my state school. I received an awesome education here at a fraction of the price of the Ivies.

 

[HristosKaran]

Knowing what I know now, I would go to a slightly prestigious school where I could make the best possible grades, over an extremely competitive school. My university is much tougher than MANY in the state, but it doesn't get the credit it deserves due to our underperforming sport teams. I think a lot of the prestige comes from sports, which has nothing to do with the quality of education. Except for Ivy's like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc...