Private Prestigious College ROI

[foshizzo]

Have a kid starting senior year. We live in a state with a highly ranked flagship public U (think UMich, Berkeley, UVA, UNC, UT Austin, etc). Kid is a star student - she really wants to try for one of Ivies / Ivy equivalents (Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Rice) or Little Ivies (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore) etc.

She wants to apply early decision (binding) to maximize admissions chances. Currently leaning towards engineering or finance.

Is the $80K annual cost at say, Duke, worth it over $30K at UNC Chapel Hill?

Would love to hear from other anesthesiologist parents that went through this calculation with their offspring.

Thanks!

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[shepardsun]

Haven't gone through this calculation with my offspring, but as someone who went through this calculation myself I would pick the public option 100 out of 100 times. Student loans are dumb, loans for undergrad especially so.

 

[ChiDO]

No. Would definitely encourage my kid to go instate u of Michigan over going to Stanford for $100k.

 

[agammaglobulin]

Agree it's rarely worth the extra $200k+ to go to private. I haven't had this discussion with my kids either but have thought about the best way to connect with a high schooler on this topic. It's so hard when you are 17/18yo to have an appreciation for how significant the cost difference is.

One method I like - sharing some of the savings of going to an in-state school with your teenage child. For example, one kid in my graduating class got to pick any car as a gift if he went to a state school over private. He chose in-state and drove around a new blue convertible Mustang for senior year. I'm sure his parents still came out way ahead financially. Win-win.

 

[Greenbayslacker]

Personally I'd say that Ivy League name will be carried on and positively looked upon for the rest of your kid's life. I can understand if you don't have the means but if you have the $ to give your kid a leg up, why not?

 

[Guillemot]

Ivies are mostly about networking arent they? I dont know what value that would have in the fields you listed. In medicine though the ROI would probably not be good though.

 

[Straight2eight]

All the extra 200k is buying your child is a fancier name on a piece of paper. The value of the actual education is not worth 5k a year at either place.

 

[shepardsun]

Yeah, maybe I don't play golf at the right country clubs but I have never in my entire life personally been in a situation or even heard about one second hand where going to an ivy league school actually made any difference or impact in anything

 

[OptionOffense]

Personally I'd say that Ivy League name will be carried on and positively looked upon for the rest of your kid's life. I can understand if you don't have the means but if you have the $ to give your kid a leg up, why not?

That is the case if their aspirations are being a politician, or a job where soft skills are paramount. If they are going into medicine, what is the point? Organic Chemistry at the local community college is the same as chemistry at Harvard.

 

[Dr. Rude]

Paid up for my kids to go to an Ivy and a near Ivy. No regrets.

I did twist their arms to get a degree in something marketable. Had they gotten a humanities or social science degree, I might have a few regrets.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

yes for finance no for engineering or medicine. at my school, it was not uncommon for art history or other humanities majors to get jobs at Goldman Sachs or Bridgewater. These firms recruit at the public schools that you mentioned but it’s way more competitive (at Umich for example you might be competing against 2000 other Ross students for fewer positions than they offer at say Williams). Many of the finance students at larger schools will end up in middle office positions (think risk, compliance etc.). Not sure what her goals are, but if it entails Ibanking, consulting, buy-side, it’s probably worth the investment.

On the other hand, engineering/CS major —> Software engineering or something, pedigree is far less important and there is no difference between a flagship and an Ivy. Actually, many of the Big10 schools have better engineering programs than most Ivys/LACs

 

[nimbus]

It depends on the kid and their ambitions. I know kids who went to Ivy’s and got jobs at Bain Capital, McKinsey, and hedge funds. The network helps. They’re on a rarefied path. Otoh, if they’re interested in medicine or engineering, I don’t think it is worthwhile.

 

[nimbus]

yes for finance no for engineering or medicine. at my school, it was not uncommon for art history majors to get jobs at Goldman Sachs or Bridgewater. These firms recruit at the public schools that you mentioned but it’s way more competitive (at Umich for example you might be competing against 2000 other Ross students for fewer positions than they offer at say Williams). Many of the finance students at larger schools will end up in middle office positions (think risk, compliance etc.). Not sure what her goals are, but if it entails Ibanking, consulting, buy-side, it’s probably worth the investment.

On the other hand, engineering/CS major —> Software engineering or something, pedigree is far less important and there is no difference between a flagship and an Ivy. Actually, many of the Big10 schools have better engineering programs than most Ivys/LACs

Beat me to it!

 

[Agast]

If your kid is a mature self-starter, I think a top program could be worth it. If she’s somewhat sheltered and used to her parents doing a lot of things for her, it’s less worth it. It’s not so much brains as it is ability to handle oneself. I know a lot of smart kids who flamed out hard at the best schools, simply because they were not prepared to leave the nest.

 

[Tramadeezy]

Freakonomics radio podcast does a good series on this. I think its called Freakonomics radio goes back to school. The takeaway I got was that the cost of Ivy league schools for most kids is not worth it.

 

[narcotics999]

It depends on the kid and their ambitions. I know kids who went to Ivy’s and got jobs at Bain Capital, McKinsey, and hedge funds. The network helps. They’re on a rarefied path. Otoh, if they’re interested in medicine or engineering, I don’t think it is worthwhile.

Kids going to Ivy are future blood suckers?

 

[UscGhost]

Likely not worth it. If you invested that 200k, they would benefit far more financially from those funds than what incremental benefit they would get from a degree from an IVY league.

It's more of a sure bet.

 

[KaiBuzz]

My kid did attend a top LAC and the class size, quality of teaching, career advising, alumni network, contacts, etc made it all worthwhile. It’s a great investment in their future.

 

[Hoya11]

Have a kid starting senior year. We live in a state with a highly ranked flagship public U (think UMich, Berkeley, UVA, UNC, UT Austin, etc). Kid is a star student - she really wants to try for one of Ivies / Ivy equivalents (Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Rice) or Little Ivies (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore) etc.

She wants to apply early decision (binding) to maximize admissions chances. Currently leaning towards engineering or finance.

Is the $80K annual cost at say, Duke, worth it over $30K at UNC Chapel Hill?

Would love to hear from other anesthesiologist parents that went through this calculation with their offspring.

Thanks!

my philosophy is that i dont want the college to be limiting to their next step..

the school can be cheap, but it cant be so lowly ranked that their chances of getting accepted into a good/great graduate program are hindered..

i believe going to a name grad school is way more important ultimately in getting a good job

its very rare for someone coming out of East Bumble State to get into a prestigious grad program

but the college doesnt need to be harvard either, it can be a mid/upper tier school that has known success with grad school placement.

a place where they can prosper without intense pressure, still have a decent recognizable name and get into a great grad program, and save some money.. hopefully..

 

[bigdan]

There’s something to be said for financing your kid’s wants/dreams, especially in this endeavor, if she’s intellectually capable, and if you can swing it financially.

On sheer math - understanding you can’t easily determine the “ROI” on Ivy League networking - paying 6x more for the exact same degree seems silly. But with college costs as they are now, the only thing that makes good financial sense to me is JUCO x 2y then complete degree at a state school, but that’s simply not palatable for most.

The compounded cost benefit over time on savings at ages 18-22 is massive, especially if considering a long & expensive educational adventure like medicine, but it’s also very difficult to get a 17 or 18 year old to truly understand that.

But you knew all that. If it’s my kid, I’d give her what she wants on this one.

 

[Gern Blansten]

No.

 

[ERRES2288]

Likely not worth it but definitely could be. If star student, motivated, personable they will be successful regardless they may just be way more successful (as defined by $$ and high powered career) if from IVY.

If she wants to do I banking or big time consulting (McKinsey) then I’d vote for IVY

 

[maxxor]

I went to a “near ivy” on a full scholarship and an ivy for Med school. There are significant differences in opportunities available for prestige jobs in management consulting and high finance. Those firms simply only recruit from certain schools. Unless you go to that school, it’s basically impossible to get in. If that’s the direction she wants to go, the investment is worth it.

While scholarships are no guarantee, they are similar in competitiveness for ivy undergrad admission. Many of them have weird qualification methods to cut down on applications (the high school has to nominate them) so I would heavily research those to see if you can get applications submitted in the proper way.

Examples
Washu Danforth
Emory Scholars
Etc.

I would not do early decision anywhere but an ivy. It actually messes with your chances of getting a merit scholarship at places that offer them.

College confidential was the web forum I uses ages ago when I applied as a high schooler. Good luck. I do not miss those days of endless secondary and scholarship essay revisions…

 

[deleted1111114]

What about university of phoenix online?

 

[vector2]

For finance or business, definitely Ivy. For engineering, any highly ranked public school.

 

[Agast]

Likely not worth it but definitely could be. If star student, motivated, personable they will be successful regardless they may just be way more successful (as defined by $$ and high powered career) if from IVY.

If she wants to do I banking or big time consulting (McKinsey) then I’d vote for IVY

My friend consults for McKinsey, she got a chemical engineering degree from Purdue for a nice in-state tuition.

 

[nimbus]

What about university of phoenix online?

Ironically, a high school classmate of mine who is a Princeton grad, was VP/chief of digital marketing of UoP a decade ago.

 

[nimbus]

I’ve been out of the college admissions game for more than a few years now but I’m told it’s a totally different, much harder game now. Family friends have a daughter who went through the process this year. Star student (1560 SAT, salutatorian of huge highly ranked public HS, 11AP classes), excellent but not star athlete and musician. She applied to all ivies except Cornell and many other schools. Was admitted to Brown but rejected or waitlisted at every other Ivy and also by USC, U Chicago, and NYU.

 

[Agast]

I’ve been out of the college admissions game for more than a few years now but I’m told it’s a totally different, much harder game now. Family friends have a daughter who went through the process this year. Star student (1560 SAT, salutatorian of huge highly ranked public HS, 11AP classes), excellent but not star athlete and musician. She applied to all ivies except Cornell and many other schools. Was admitted to Brown but rejected or waitlisted at every other Ivy and also by USC, U Chicago, and NYU.

Hm. Asian?

 

[pgg]

Some of these expensive schools offer surprisingly high financial aid packages, even to kids whose parents make anesthesiologist money. The students who pay full price typically aren't the kids whose parents work for a living. I wouldn't write off any particular school as a waste before seeing the admission letter and talking to the financial aid office.

Applying early-decision with a binding commitment to attend puts the applicant in a tougher spot, though.

 

[nimbus]

Hm. Asian?

Yep

 

[Agast]

Yep

Not to be cynical, but then she only did what was expected of her. I doubt things have changed much from when I applied but there’s an unspoken rule that you have to prove you are not an Asian robot.

 

[Test Boy]

I’ve been out of the college admissions game for more than a few years now but I’m told it’s a totally different, much harder game now. Family friends have a daughter who went through the process this year. Star student (1560 SAT, salutatorian of huge highly ranked public HS, 11AP classes), excellent but not star athlete and musician. She applied to all ivies except Cornell and many other schools. Was admitted to Brown but rejected or waitlisted at every other Ivy and also by USC, U Chicago, and NYU.

Shocked she didn’t get into NYU. They admit so many each year. Would’ve been a shoe in just a few years ago.

 

[aneftp]

For non medical school. Ivy leagues certainly give you the hookup especially in financial services

The usual pathway is
Ivy league
Than work 2 years for the feds/treasure (again hookup with those govt jobs)

Than go to mba school finance

At rip age of 26. Get starter finance job at one of the preferred banks. Starting salary around 160-180k BEFORE bonus.

That’s the usual pathway most of the public does not know. I’ve known quite a few people who have done. It’s the ivy connections that gets you into these jobs as a new grad.

Same with Ivy League law school. Almost guaranteed 200k plus starting salary as an associate. That’s just the starting salay at a high powered law firm in nyc or wash dc. The law partners make in excess of 1 million easily.

 

[nimbus]

Shocked she didn’t get into NYU. They admit so many each year. Would’ve been a shoe in just a few years ago.

They were shocked too. USC and NYU were supposed to be her safety schools.

 

[sleepallday]

If she's a star student like you say and you have the means to pay for it, I'd say she earned the right to pick the school she wants to go to.

 

[nimbus]

Not to be cynical, but then she only did what was expected of her. I doubt things have changed much from when I applied but there’s an unspoken rule that you have to prove you are not an Asian robot.

I hate that. If someone of any other race did what she did, they would be celebrated. Unfortunately, because she is Asian, she is considered a robot.

 

[forchinet121]

Have a kid starting senior year. We live in a state with a highly ranked flagship public U (think UMich, Berkeley, UVA, UNC, UT Austin, etc). Kid is a star student - she really wants to try for one of Ivies / Ivy equivalents (Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Rice) or Little Ivies (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore) etc.

She wants to apply early decision (binding) to maximize admissions chances. Currently leaning towards engineering or finance.

Is the $80K annual cost at say, Duke, worth it over $30K at UNC Chapel Hill?

Would love to hear from other anesthesiologist parents that went through this calculation with their offspring.

Thanks!

Does she not want to stay by you? She wants to move away from her parents?

 

[nimbus]

Does she not want to stay by you? She wants to move away from her parents?

Some kids want to stay and some kids want to go away. My daughter wanted to stay. I grew up in Cleveland and wanted to GTFO for a multitude of reasons.

 

[epidural man]

I can't imagine it would make a difference in MOST things, except the obvious things already mentioned like finance, or even Law.

The problem is, as many great podcasts have pointed out (think Malcolm Gladwell, Michael Lewis, etc) - the rank of IVY is kind of ridiculous in the first place.

Honestly, when I think of someone that went to Harvard, I think - wow, I got a much better education than you. My classes were smaller. I was taught by an actual PhD (not a grad student), and I don't carry the baggage of thinking I'm better than everyone (I mean... I AM better than everyone, I just don't think I am.)

 

[ScarfTheVerb]

For non medical school. Ivy leagues certainly give you the hookup especially in financial services

The usual pathway is
Ivy league
Than work 2 years for the feds/treasure (again hookup with those govt jobs)

Than go to mba school finance

At rip age of 26. Get starter finance job at one of the preferred banks. Starting salary around 160-180k BEFORE bonus.

That’s the usual pathway most of the public does not know. I’ve known quite a few people who have done. It’s the ivy connections that gets you into these jobs as a new grad.

Same with Ivy League law school. Almost guaranteed 200k plus starting salary as an associate. That’s just the starting salay at a high powered law firm in nyc or wash dc. The law partners make in excess of 1 million easily.

My brother went to a fancy law school (after undergrad at a flagship state U) and did the biglaw thing. It’s brutal. He was a new associate while I was in residency and he probably out worked me 2:1. The equity partners make a couple mil+ a year but they work almost as much and they are always on the hook for their clients. Also, less than 10% of new associates can ever hope to make it to the top of that ladder.

My brother ended up going in house and has a better lifestyle now, but I still make more and work less than him. I’d go medicine over law any day of the week.

 

[pgg]

My brother went to a fancy law school (after undergrad at a flagship state U) and did the biglaw thing. It’s brutal. He was a new associate while I was in residency and he probably out worked me 2:1. The equity partners make a couple mil+ a year but they work almost as much and they are always on the hook for their clients. Also, less than 10% of new associates can ever hope to make it to the top of that ladder.

My brother ended up going in house and has a better lifestyle now, but I still make more and work less than him. I’d go medicine over law any day of the week.

Brutal, cutthroat, and always an inch away from failure, with market uncertainties you have zero control over always lurking in the background. And a massive dose of survivor bias when the ones who "made it" look back on things.

There's a cohort here who think that i-banking and Biglaw are the easy tickets to wealth they coulda shoulda done instead of medicine. I think they get their ideas of that world by watching movies like American Psycho. $3000 suits, and all you have to do is goof off in the corner office a bit, have dinner at Dorsia, maybe an axe murder or two on the weekend, laugh at the suckers who work for a living in medicine..

 

[abolt18]

Honestly, expensive undergrad is completely unjustifiable in my mind. Idiotic even.

Go to your state school, crush it while there, you can get into any of the same med schools, law schools, MBAs as an IVY grad.

 

[Dr. Rude]

Brutal, cutthroat, and always an inch away from failure, with market uncertainties you have zero control over always lurking in the background. And a massive dose of survivor bias when the ones who "made it" look back on things.

There's a cohort here who think that i-banking and Biglaw are the easy tickets to wealth they coulda shoulda done instead of medicine. I think they get their ideas of that world by watching movies like American Psycho. $3000 suits, and all you have to do is goof off in the corner office a bit, have dinner at Dorsia, maybe an axe murder or two on the weekend, laugh at the suckers who work for a living in medicine..

There actually is a Dorsia restaurant in Milwaukee.

Welcome to Dorsia | Modern Italian Cuisine

Enjoy modern Italian cuisine in a warm and inviting atmosphere at Dorsia. Located on the corner of Brady and Arlington, Dorsia is everything you’re looking for in a night out in Milwaukee.

dorsiamke.com

 

[Neopolymath]

Completely useless for both parent and child unless going into consulting or finance. Even then, my state school had a pipeline with 5-10 people each year going into Bain/G.S. level jobs so the door certainly isn't shut.

There are so many advantages to Big State U for everyone involved.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Honestly, expensive undergrad is completely unjustifiable in my mind. Idiotic even.

Go to your state school, crush it while there, you can get into any of the same med schools, law schools, MBAs as an IVY grad.

If you look at HBS, GSB, Wharton (like law school only a handful of MBA programs are worth the investment), a good chunk of students come from top groups at good banks or consulting firms. B schools care about where you work just as much as scores/grades.

 

[Dr. Rude]

Completely useless for both parent and child unless going into consulting or finance. Even then, my state school had a pipeline with 5-10 people each year going into Bain/G.S. level jobs so the door certainly isn't shut.

There are so many advantages to Big State U for everyone involved.

The competition for name brand colleges has never been fiercer. In the current environment everyone is looking for what they perceive of as an edge. The ivies have admission rates under 10%. National merit scholars and valedictorians get rejected in droves.

 

[pjl]

If she is even considering finance, it is worth it.

I have many friends who had a much easier time finding better jobs post Ivy in finance than my brother, who does the same after a state school. He had to work his way in through the back door while they strolled through the front.

Plus, the difference in money is not that much, a small amount of the investment returns for you at this point I would imagine.

 

[IlDestriero]

I went to an elite private school known for being a meat grinder, and it probably helped me get where I am today. I was a legacy applicant there. Research opportunities, robust education, dealing with strong competition, reputation, everything helped. My grades were not the best, thanks to no +/-, it hurt me more than it helped me, but my MCAT was very strong. But that’s me, and just an n of 1. Many of my good friends from there have had extraordinary success as well. Managing hedge funds, founding companies worth hundreds of millions of dollars, billions in at least one case, corporate raiders, government power players developed over decades, etc. One is even a high level executive at an AMC! But that just makes for interesting friends. However, if I was in business, or finance, law, accounting, computer science, govt affairs/politics, etc. these connections could be extremely valuable. Networking can’t be overlooked and that’s one of the things you’re paying x2 for.
There’s no right answer though. I wanted my kids to apply early decision to this school, and in my case they didn’t want to, so far. So it’s not worth worrying about until they get the acceptances and it’s time to decide where to go and why.
You can be successful from anywhere. As one of my friends pointed out to one of my kids. They were not the smartest kid, solid 3.0 from a crap HS, but worked hard, understood success gets you promotion, money, a future. so they went to one of the worst colleges in the country because that’s where their crazy parents said they needed to go to study accounting, because it was easy for them. Fast forward 30 years and they are the CFO of a company with several multibillion dollar investment funds. He’s the opposite example for you. It’s not who you know but hard work, luck and timing.

 

[IlDestriero]

What about university of phoenix online?

Only for your MBA!