PRN contract in academics without specific compensation

[alpinism]

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So I've been recently talking with a well known EM residency program about picking up PRN shifts.

We discussed the expectations and requirements as well as the compensation for working shifts and they sent a pdf document that has current rates offered for all of the different shifts. I just got the contract and its the standard boilerplate template form we all know with the caveat that it has zero information in the contract regarding compensation. Literally just mentions that I will receive payment according to an undefined Emergency Department compensation plan that is subject to change without notice. No listing of this plan in this contract or even addendums with a copy of this plan in this contract.

I've worked in academics before at multiple different hospitals and they have always included the rates for all of the shifts in the contract but really just curious if this is common for others that are in academics?

 

[Porfirio]

I have never worked academic before, but this does not sound good at all.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Your contract should spell everything out very clearly.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

They are playing in your face and for prn lol. At my old residency program, PRN was given a flat hourly.

 

[Saddleshoes]

This is a common form of payment for dentists in corporate clinics.
It is all about production and computer record keeping. You get paid based on what you produce and when the payment comes in.
The trick is the phrase "Adjusted Production".
Adjustments are made based on the patients payment method, insurance reimbursement, length of payment time, write-offs, etc.
As result you can do the same treatment on 5 different patients, on the same night and get paid 5 different amounts on 5 different paydays stretched out over 5 months.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

This is a common form of payment for dentists in corporate clinics.
It is all about production and computer record keeping. You get paid based on what you produce and when the payment comes in.
The trick is the phrase "Adjusted Production".
Adjustments are made based on the patients payment method, insurance reimbursement, length of payment time, write-offs, etc.
As result you can do the same treatment on 5 different patients, on the same night and get paid 5 different amounts on 5 different paydays stretched out over 5 months.

The chance an academic EM spot operates like this approaches zero.

 

[Goodlife1119]

This is not a red flag in my experience. Compensation plans/hourly-rates change, sometimes mid-year. The contract is saying we will pay you according to the department's standard compensation plan at the time.

I'd be more interested in knowing how often the compensation plan changes/increases. You don't want to be working there 2 years from now and there is no increase in the rate.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Likely the poeple doing the recruiting are incompetent. You have properly found the issues. They need you more than you need them. dont forget that.

 

[EctopicFetus]

This is not a red flag in my experience. Compensation plans/hourly-rates change, sometimes mid-year. The contract is saying we will pay you according to the department's standard compensation plan at the time.

I'd be more interested in knowing how often the compensation plan changes/increases. You don't want to be working there 2 years from now and there is no increase in the rate.

Make it clear in your contract that depending on the changes you can terminate the contract within 30 or 60 days, much of this depends on how they define PRN.

 

[alpinism]

This is not a red flag in my experience. Compensation plans/hourly-rates change, sometimes mid-year. The contract is saying we will pay you according to the department's standard compensation plan at the time.

I'd be more interested in knowing how often the compensation plan changes/increases. You don't want to be working there 2 years from now and there is no increase in the rate.

That’s fair but it’s still not listed in the contract so I’d have no legal recourse if they decide that it was 100/hr rate for worked shifts.

At least that’s what I’ve been told.

 

[alpinism]

Make it clear in your contract that depending on the changes you can terminate the contract within 30 or 60 days, much of this depends on how they define PRN.

They have the standard 60 days.

 

[Goodlife1119]

That’s fair but it’s still not listed in the contract so I’d have no legal recourse if they decide that it was 100/hr rate for worked shifts.

At least that’s what I’ve been told.

In my experience that would be very unlikely-dropping your rate out of left field without notice. Also it matters how often you get paid. Getting paid once every 3 months vs once a month does make a difference.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I’d never sign a contract to work as a physician that doesn’t include basic information about compensation.

 

[skougess]

Dude, are you actually asking if it’s cool to accept a somewhat binding job contract where you don’t even know the pay?

Greeters at Walmart don’t even accept that.

 

[Janders]

Agree.

If they keep their rates as low as”appendix B” and give you a copy and update you promptly with changes… sure thing!

 

[alpinism]

Oh I definitely agree its a major red flag and would never sign anything without the attached rates.

I'm basically just curious if it's accepted practice at other residencies.

 

[alpinism]

The crazy thing is it's a well known and respected program located in a major city but they're desperate for docs.

You can probably figure out the name but they're offering 50K-100K employee signing bonuses to do full time academics shifts.

 

[maxxor]

In my experience that would be very unlikely-dropping your rate out of left field without notice. Also it matters how often you get paid. Getting paid once every 3 months vs once a month does make a difference.

this literally happened to me in academic per diem radiology.

The contract had hourly rates based on time of day. Fine.

For about 1.5 years it was fine.

Then they completely changed to production model and never told me.

I never took another shift.

 

[DeadCactus]

Probably to avoid having to constantly track and addend individual contracted rates every time they adjust shift times or priorities. It's a central fee schedule so they have to change it for everyone to affect you, you're PRN with presumably minimal to no obligations, and you have the current rates which I assume you found acceptable; seems minimal risk to me.

 

[maxxor]

Probably to avoid having to constantly track and addend individual contracted rates every time they adjust shift times or priorities. It's a central fee schedule so they have to change it for everyone to affect you, you're PRN with presumably minimal to no obligations, and you have the current rates which I assume you found acceptable; seems minimal risk to me.

They should still provide the current fee schedule / hourly rates in writing as an addendum.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

They should still provide the current fee schedule / hourly rates in writing as an addendum.

Yeah exactly.

They need to cite exactly which compensation plan they have in mind, and attach it to the contract.

 

[DeadCactus]

They should still provide the current fee schedule / hourly rates in writing as an addendum.

They were sent a pdf of the current rates as a reference. The contract says the rate is dictated by the current compensation plan which is going to be defined in it's own policy and procedure documentation; an addendum is pointless and misleading if the addendum isn't going to define the rate. The compensation plan itself is probably pointlessly vague because it is written to cover a ridiculously broad range of employees. It's the typical bureaucratic inception of large organizations.

It's a PRN contract. If they change the rate and you don't like it, you stop working shifts. People should do what they are comfortable with but, again, I find this a pretty minimal risk.

 

[alpinism]

So to provide an update for closure they still refuse to provide the rates in the contract.

I asked to see the actual compensation plan referenced in the contract but they also refused to provide it and instead say the pdf of current rates is sufficient and because of this I have no reason to see the actual document with the compensation plan which is the only referenced document specified in the contract.

Lots of shady things with the recruiters too who stated that I would need to start licensing and credentialing first before I could receive the contract.

So to name and shame its the midwestern state with the largest emergency medicine residency program.

 

[skougess]

So to provide an update for closure they still refuse to provide the rates in the contract.

I asked to see the actual compensation plan referenced in the contract but they also refused to provide it and instead say the pdf of current rates is sufficient and because of this I have no reason to see the actual document with the compensation plan which is the only referenced document specified in the contract.

Lots of shady things with the recruiters too who stated that I would need to start licensing and credentialing first before I could receive the contract.

So to name and shame its the midwestern state with the largest emergency medicine residency program.

Absolutely insane. Good on you for walking.

 

[Bittersteel]

So to provide an update for closure they still refuse to provide the rates in the contract.

I asked to see the actual compensation plan referenced in the contract but they also refused to provide it and instead say the pdf of current rates is sufficient and because of this I have no reason to see the actual document with the compensation plan which is the only referenced document specified in the contract.

Lots of shady things with the recruiters too who stated that I would need to start licensing and credentialing first before I could receive the contract.

So to name and shame its the midwestern state with the largest emergency medicine residency program.

Why would you credential somewhere that you dont have a signed contract?