Can a DO apply to EM without any away rotations?

Started by InnocentMedicalStudent
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InnocentMedicalStudent

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I really dont want to do an away rotation is there anyway I can get the SLOEs without an away?
My med school does not have a hospital or anything like that (no "home base"), we just have affiliation with a bunch of hospitals where people do their clinical rotations at.
Also what about O-SLOE? from my understanding these are SLOEs that are written by non EM docs, so can i get a few oSLEOs from non EMs during my third year clinical rotations and call it a day?
 
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EctopicFetus said:
Hold on.. so you want to apply for an EM residency without doing an EM rotation.. seems insane.
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This is the same person who plans to work part time straight out of residency on another thread. Honestly, this is a good thing. Only people applying EM now are those that will work part time then burn out in 5 years.
 
BoardingDoc said:
Your med school doesn't have a hospital? Where are you doing your clinical rotations? Does wherever that is not have an EM rotation?
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they have affiliations with a bunch of hospitals where we do our clinical rotations, we do have EM rotation but i heard people advise against getting a SLOE from a EM third year clinical rotation.
Also what do you think about O-SLOE? from my understanding these are SLOEs that are written by non EM docs, so can i get a few oSLEOs from non EMs during my third year clinical rotations and call it a day?
 
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InnocentMedicalStudent said:
I can still do EM rotations without doing aways
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Yes, you can. That isn't the point. As rusted said, you need to do away rotations in order to be taken seriously. Think about it this way. I have two applicants. One has a an A+ review from their home program and went nowhere else. One had an A/A- review from their home program and the same review from their away rotation. I'm obviously ranking candidate 2. The first one I have only one data point and it's from a potentially biased source. Also, candidate 2 was able to land an away rotation in the first place.

What's the issue with not wanting to do an away rotation?
 
InnocentMedicalStudent said:
I can still do EM rotations without doing aways
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You need aways. Period.

The MD and DO match was merged some time ago.

You're asking these questions (all of them, even from your other thread) in good faith. A lot of the answers you're going to get here may seem harsh, but are invaluably honest.

Listen to me, kid: You think you want to do EM now... That may change entirely your 3rd/4th year of medical school. I thought I was destined for IM. I'm so glad I found out I was dead wrong.

EM is a tough road to travel. It eats people alive. This career choice costs people their health, their marriages, their families, and some even their lives.

Better swim a lot in the shallow end of this ocean before you decide to wade into deeper waters.
 
RustedFox said:
You need aways. Period.

The MD and DO match was merged some time ago.

You're asking these questions (all of them, even from your other thread) in good faith. A lot of the answers you're going to get here may seem harsh, but are invaluably honest.

Listen to me, kid: You think you want to do EM now... That may change entirely your 3rd/4th year of medical school. I thought I was destined for IM. I'm so glad I found out I was dead wrong.

EM is a tough road to travel. It eats people alive. This career choice costs people their health, their marriages, their families, and some even their lives.

Better swim a lot in the shallow end of this ocean before you decide to wade into deeper waters.
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Great wisdom here.

If you dont want to do an away what happens if you match at a place that akes you go to other hospitals, potentially out of town. I dont know if it is still a thing or requiremnt but back in the day Henry Ford residents would spend time in hawaii. Overall sounds dope. BUt I remember those residents complaining how crapy their lives were in hawaii and while hawaii is great they worked them like crazy and it wasnt enjoyable and if you have a spouse / young kid it may not be an ideal situation on top of that.

I know there are other programs that have you spend time a few hours (or more) from your home institution. What will you do?
 
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RustedFox said:
Bro.
You need to do 2-3 EM rotations altogether. Ideally 2 away.

Or you could accept that this is not a field for you and we would all be happy for you.
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Are you certain this is still true with the current bottom tier competitiveness of EM?

I'm out of touch having applied 10 years ago when EM was decently competitive and an away was definitely required. Now, tons of spots go unmatched and to SOAP and international graduates.
 
Emapp20177 said:
Are you certain this is still true with the current bottom tier competitiveness of EM?

I'm out of touch having applied 10 years ago when EM was decently competitive and an away was definitely required. Now, tons of spots go unmatched and to SOAP and international graduates.
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Forget about that for a minute.
How do you even know that you want to do EM without 2 rotations minimum?
This kid could save himself from our fate.
 
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The bottom signal is in.

Man times certainly have changed from just 10 years ago.

It used to be the top of the medical school classes going for EM, now its just people who couldn't cut it for ortho or rads.

To be honest, it never really made sense why EM was ever competitive. I guess the podcasters of the 2010s hyped it up? Really should have always been on par with IM, FM, Peds, GYN. It's designed to chew you up and spit you out.
 
EM continues to be sold to med students as this fantasy specialty where docs work 10 shifts for 500K in desirable cities.

To be fair it was much different ten years ago when there were plenty of groups that paid their partners those salaries.
 
Bittersteel said:
The bottom signal is in.

Man times certainly have changed from just 10 years ago.

It used to be the top of the medical school classes going for EM, now its just people who couldn't cut it for ortho or rads.

To be honest, it never really made sense why EM was ever competitive. I guess the podcasters of the 2010s hyped it up? Really should have always been on par with IM, FM, Peds, GYN. It's designed to chew you up and spit you out.
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It was sold to a generation as a lifestyle specialty

which pre-covid was somewhat true

post-covid it's a lifestyle specialty in only certain setups (and not EVERY SDG, mine was horrific/still suffering burnout/high turnover per peeps I still talk to) and generally, I think, best for people without spouses/kids. The amount of stuff I missed sleeping I'll never get back, but at least I'm out.

Also I wrote this before seeing there was already a reply, so this is largely duplicative because I'm generally agreeing
 
alpinism said:
EM continues to be sold to med students as this fantasy specialty where docs work 10 shifts for 500K in desirable cities.

To be fair it was much different ten years ago when there were plenty of groups that paid their partners those salaries.
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My group is a diamond in the rough but 99% of jobs are trash.
 
1784765146668.png
 
SMART Physician Recruiting is immediately seeking Emergency Medicine Physicians for locum tenens opportunites at multiple Ohio emergency departments.

  • Locums Rate: $250/hour – plus paid travel, lodging, and malpractice insurance with tail
  • Annual Volume: 15,600 – Lvl IV trauma
  • Coverage Model: 7a-7p, 7p-7a
  • Beds: 11 Bed ED
  • EMR: Logicare
  • Credentialing: Temps issued in time for Oct 1st
 
that's a little below average even for EM locums, but the volume is much lower. They'll still struggle to find docs at that rate, given everything else I'm seeing
 
The rate published for a Locum job should never be the true rate of the job. You just need your foot in the door and be available.
 
alpinism said:
SMART Physician Recruiting is immediately seeking Emergency Medicine Physicians for locum tenens opportunites at multiple Ohio emergency departments.

  • Locums Rate: $250/hour – plus paid travel, lodging, and malpractice insurance with tail
  • Annual Volume: 15,600 – Lvl IV trauma
  • Coverage Model: 7a-7p, 7p-7a
  • Beds: 11 Bed ED
  • EMR: Logicare
  • Credentialing: Temps issued in time for Oct 1st
Click to expand...
That’s an awful hourly rate for that kind of volume. 43/day will have some absolutely terrible days in there.
 
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Porfirio said:
We can’t all be partners in a good SDG. Enjoy it while you can, and try to leave it for the next generation of docs.
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Honestly, you could. The reason not everyone can is because most people either won’t look or be prepared to move. Those that are willing to do that will end up with a far better career/life.

It has also been my experience that the number of people who want to be a part of a SDG and do what it takes to be a owner has been on the decline.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
Honestly, you could. The reason not everyone can is because most people either won’t look or be prepared to move. Those that are willing to do that will end up with a far better career/life.

It has also been my experience that the number of people who want to be a part of a SDG and do what it takes to be a owner has been on the decline.
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Not surprisingly, the type of people that wouldn't cut it in an SDG are the first to complain when they're requested to see 1.5 pph at their W2 slave wage job.
 
Mount Asclepius said:
There are SDGs across the entire country that are hiring. Have you ever attended AAEM SA or even remotely looked into?
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Ok, here goes.

Closest SDG to me is 50-60 miles away and it is questionably predatory in nature with no guarantee of partnership track and requires extended travel 1.5 hrs out from largest city in the state on the opposite side from me (thus 2.5 hrs away). Next closest one is 232 miles away (based on Ivy Clinicians website search).

So myself and all my fellow EM physicians are supposed to move away from this area and magically find SDG positions in other locations? Who will serve the 4th largest city in the state, if we do this? Nah, man. That is a fantasy.

The cost for me to pack up, move, reestablish myself and my family plus the “sweat equity” partnership buy in - just does not make economic sense.

I am glad SDGs work for some of you. Please keep them going.
 
Porfirio said:
Ok, here goes.

Closest SDG to me is 50-60 miles away and it is questionably predatory in nature with no guarantee of partnership track and requires extended travel 1.5 hrs out from largest city in the state on the opposite side from me (thus 2.5 hrs away). Next closest one is 232 miles away (based on Ivy Clinicians website search).

So myself and all my fellow EM physicians are supposed to move away from this area and magically find SDG positions in other locations? Who will serve the 4th largest city in the state, if we do this? Nah, man. That is a fantasy.

The cost for me to pack up, move, reestablish myself and my family plus the “sweat equity” partnership buy in - just does not make economic sense.

I am glad SDGs work for some of you. Please keep them going.
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As I said, and your post proves this, nearly anyone can join a SDG but they either won’t want to move or do what it takes to become an owner (or even both). If you’re looking at every EM physician being in a SDG then you’re correct that not everyone can be in a SDG. But, if you’re looking at an individual physician level then that physician could if they absolutely wanted.
 
I understand if you were already in an SDG that got bought out and you had already established roots, but anyone who doesn’t seek out/start their career at an SDG has no one to blame but themselves. There are PLENTY of options.
 
skougess said:
I understand if you were already in an SDG that got bought out and you had already established roots, but anyone who doesn’t seek out/start their career at an SDG has no one to blame but themselves. There are PLENTY of options.
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It seems very shortsighted to blame people for what options are available beyond their control. But hey, I knew this would be a rousing topic. Your plenty of options are hundreds of miles away.

I assume you work for a SDG. Will you put a bid in to take over all these contracts in my area? I am sure hospital admins will love to dine/golf with you on your group’s dollar.
 
Bittersteel said:
I mean we're actively recruiting, make way more than any locums I've seen on this forum, and everyone we hire becomes a partner unless you have a personality disorder...but, to each his own!
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Good luck recruiting, it should be fruitful since you are a rare bird in the field.
 
Porfirio said:
It seems very shortsighted to blame people for what options are available beyond their control. But hey, I knew this would be a rousing topic. Your plenty of options are hundreds of miles away.

I assume you work for a SDG. Will you put a bid in to take over all these contracts in my area? I am sure hospital admins will love to dine/golf with you on your group’s dollar.
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That’s the whole point. It isn’t beyond your control. You’ve just decided that the reasons keeping you where you’re at outweigh uprooting your life. Those reasons could be anything and certainly some reasons are better than others. There’s nothing wrong with that but that’s why you got pushback and will always get pushback with those comments.

A SDG pretty much quits being an SDG once it gets out of a local area. It’ll start turning into a CMG real quick. I guess another option is that you could start your own SDG where you’re at…
 
Porfirio said:
Good luck recruiting, it should be fruitful since you are a rare bird in the field.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, we have a lot of people turn us down and even leave the partnership track because we are very very silent about what's at the end of the rainbow.

Peasants be worried about their "public service loan forgiveness" 🤣🤣🤣
 
Bittersteel said:
Interestingly, we have a lot of people turn us down and even leave the partnership track because we are very very silent about what's at the end of the rainbow.

Peasants be worried about their "public service loan forgiveness" 🤣🤣🤣
Click to expand...
And this is exactly it.

When you make 250k for 2 years of 16+ shifts for the promise of “it gets better” you need either-
(1) Trust. Or gullibility.
(2) insider knowledge of what “better” is.

I know of enough predatory SDGs or places where the “better” is fine but is in the order of 10% more that a local hospital employed group.
 
Janders said:
And this is exactly it.

When you make 250k for 2 years of 16+ shifts for the promise of “it gets better” you need either-
(1) Trust. Or gullibility.
(2) insider knowledge of what “better” is.

I know of enough predatory SDGs or places where the “better” is fine but is in the order of 10% more that a local hospital employed group.
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"Trust the process."

Our group pays way more than the above while on partner track, and even if it were the above, what's 2 years? Very easy to switch gears if it isn't what you expected it to be.

Physicians are very risk adverse as a whole, especially EM docs.

But if you want that loan forgiveness (lolz), sure, go for the 1 foot putt.
 
Bittersteel said:
"Trust the process."

Our group pays way more than the above while on partner track, and even if it were the above, what's 2 years? Very easy to switch gears if it isn't what you expected it to be.

Physicians are very risk adverse as a whole, especially EM docs.

But if you want that loan forgiveness (lolz), sure, go for the 1 foot putt.
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Oh I get it, but as a new grad getting an offer for 20-30% less than other jobs with a vaguely noncommittal statement that it gets better… I get the fear.

When the better is double things take on a new light.
 
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Janders said:
Oh I get it, but as a new grad getting an offer for 20-30% less than other jobs with a vaguely noncommittal statement that it gets better… I get the fear.

When the better is double things take on a new light.
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Our partner track pay is about 10% lower than other jobs in the area.

There's also a component of us wanting you to believe in the model and what ownership is. We dont want people who are just attracted to a number.
 
Bittersteel said:
Interestingly, we have a lot of people turn us down and even leave the partnership track because we are very very silent about what's at the end of the rainbow.
Click to expand...
Different field, but as a partner in what you’d call a SDG, and as a huge supporter of physician owned groups, respectfully, you’re doing it wrong.

Closed book hush hush stuff is straight out of the corporate playbook. We’ve only had one associate leave in the last 15 or so years (hello personality disorder) at least partly because they know the numbers. Here’s your collections, aging report, and the number of patients by location for you and the partners. Here’s the break even point for how much you need to make to cover a buy in loan without changing your take home. Here’s what a senior partner has made over the last decade. Yes, you can modify your schedule if we can staff it.

If it works for your group, fine, I’d much rather have you out there than some empty suit trying to pretend they know medicine. But dang if transparency doesn’t motivate and reassure associates.
 
eyeeye_captain said:
Different field, but as a partner in what you’d call a SDG, and as a huge supporter of physician owned groups, respectfully, you’re doing it wrong.

Closed book hush hush stuff is straight out of the corporate playbook. We’ve only had one associate leave in the last 15 or so years (hello personality disorder) at least partly because they know the numbers. Here’s your collections, aging report, and the number of patients by location for you and the partners. Here’s the break even point for how much you need to make to cover a buy in loan without changing your take home. Here’s what a senior partner has made over the last decade. Yes, you can modify your schedule if we can staff it.

If it works for your group, fine, I’d much rather have you out there than some empty suit trying to pretend they know medicine. But dang if transparency doesn’t motivate and reassure associates.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice.

We're doing amazingly though.
 
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