Problem Based Learning, does it work?

[21409wfq]

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I am a 3rd yr med student at a South pacific med. school where we are using problem based learning. We are the third lot of students studying under the system and i find life a little difficult without the traditional lectures on basic medical sciences... We don't even do dissections 🙁 .

Are there any other med schools using this type of system and what do you feel about traditional versus problem based learning?

 

[eklope2000]

I am a 3rd yr med student at a South pacific med. school where we are using problem based learning. We are the third lot of students studying under the system and i find life a little difficult without the traditional lectures on basic medical sciences... We don't even do dissections 🙁 .

Are there any other med schools using this type of system and what do you feel about traditional versus problem based learning?

I don't think there is that much to be learned from PBL itself, but I think I might learn more in the end at my PBL school since there's more free time to study on my own.

 

[erin682]

Well we don't have PBL at my school but I do know that hardly anyone gets anything out of traditional lecture so you aren't missing much there. It does seem strange that you don't do dissection though. I know some schools don't have it but I think thats a mistake. I hate anatomy lab but I wouldn't know anatomy as well if I hadn't gotten in there and seen the real thing. Pictures no matter how good are never like the real thing.

 

[phoenixsupra]

I don't think there is that much to be learned from PBL itself, but I think I might learn more in the end at my PBL school since there's more free time to study on my own.

That's sort of how I feel about school. The only thing I ever learned in a classroom was bad posture. 😀

 

[CaptainJack02]

you're not going to be spoonfed the information you need to know for the test or the information that will be important in practice. but you will learn the extremely valuable skill of acquiring information on your own. pbl is way way way more reading on your own time. it's going to be your responsibility to fill in the gaps for the boards, too.

it's your money - do you want to be told what to know or do you want to learn how to learn? it's your decision.

 

[Super Rob]

Most of the students I talk to who attend schools where there is a traditional, lecture curriculum have a tendancy to skip class.

My school is pbl.

In reality, I really won't know how helpful PBL is until I am on the wards. Usually, I have fun on the morning that the case is introduced, when we all sort of brainstorm ideas, questions, and differentials. It is also rewarding to understand how an intricate biochemical or biomolecular disorder may present at a clinic as opposed to in a textbook.

That said, here are somethings I don't like about PBL:

1. Group is too large.

2. Can be intimidating for people who have less of a science background.

3. If PBL is graded, people may be hesitant to ask questions and have important themes clarified, simply because they do not want to seem ignorant.

4. Also, as a result of grading, a large group size, and intimidating students, some people just shut-up.

5. The PBL case always follows the particular week's course content. A patient can have shortness of breath and tightness in his chest, but unless it's "heart week" at your school, you will probably be discouraged from bringing up the heart.


These are my gripes. Overall, it may be worth a try. I'll let you know in a few years!

 

[phoenixsupra]

Great assessment. I totally agree with your criticisms too. My school is mostly traditional with some token pbl sessions (mainly so we can claim to applicants that we're not in the stone age educationally...which we are).

Even with those faults pbl beats the hell out of lecture. I really think it's a bad idea to put 100 superambitious scholer types together in an enclosed space, period. Nothing positive can come from it. The negative energy in my school is staggering. Yet, everyone is all smiles the second they even see a dean, so they're never any the wiser. I have never learned in class. It's just not my style. I respect that some people do like it. But at my school we are forced to go to class because about half the minutia factoids that show up on the exams are not in the notes. What's more, the professors actually tell us not to pass on our factoid freebies to those who don't go. This is really insane.

What I really don't get is why people who like class care if other people don't want to be there. At my school the lecture based learners seem to always be angry about the low turnout. Learning styles aren't just choices. The only lectures I find helpfull are the clinical corrolations where patients come in and tell their stories. All the rest I learn better by reading at my own pace. If you like class then good for you. Just dont expect anyone else to like it if they get nothing out of it. 😉

 

[21409wfq]

I'll have to admit that if it had been a traditional system, i wouldn't have attended half the lectures anyway.

 

[Anka]

The problem with PBL is that even if you find the sessions useless, you still have to go. At least you can skip lectures.

 

[phoenixsupra]

The problem with PBL is that even if you find the sessions useless, you still have to go. At least you can skip lectures.

Anka, that's my point. At my school they find 'clever' ways to sabotage you if you don't go. What I did was to sort of take turns with a few friends taking notes and shareing them. That way we were able to skip about three out of four on average. Our school used to have a note taking service but it was dropped a few years ago.

 

[ekydrd]

Our school uses a PBL system and the main benefit we've had here is that the board scores of previous classes have skyrocketed since it was implemented (ours took a little dive). Probably more to do with bringing in better lecturers than improving how we learn. I like the system for the most part as it forces you to think clinically from the beginning instead of trying to remember some fact from a lecture you had 2 years ago. Lots of repetition though, and not everyone likes the idea that they are responsible for learning most of the material on their own. No system is perfect, we just have to make the most of what we have available.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Actually, your school sounds great EKY. I'm a tad jealous. 🙂

 

[Super Rob]

The problem with PBL is that even if you find the sessions useless, you still have to go. At least you can skip lectures.

I think this is a great point.

If you have experience with PBL and found it not to work, or you just have a bad feeling about it, then avoid a PBL curriculum. Poor attendance will hurt your evaluations.

 

[21409wfq]

Well, aren't you a pessimist..

 

[phoenixsupra]

Well, aren't you a pessimist..

No, you are 😀 ....for not trying to understand his point of view and assuming the worst about him. C'mon I know you can do better. 🙂

 

[bullhorn]

My school currently has a PBL program and a traditional program. As I understand it my school was one of the first to implement a PBL option in medical curriculum. I am in the PBL program..along with 40 other students (out of a class of 250). I think if someone is interested in PBL for whatever reasons....if you are applying Please do your research. I love my school's program but no system is perfect.

Pros (from my school's perspective)
Individual Attention: ie everyone in the PBL office knows my name and my personal history. Therefore if extensions are needed it is a lot easier to get those. My traditional curric counterparts rarely even see the inside of the office. If your school is small to begin with or very hands on...this might not be a bonus.

Resourcefullness: if that is even a word. I came into med school in July not having been in school for a while. In less than a week..I was fending for myself in some ways. We have ALOT of guidance but at the same time they expect you to be resourceful. I already feel 10x more resourceful than my traditional curric counterparts. This comes in handy 3rd year when you are expecting to do research on your own about cases..and expected to knwo where to go. 9/10 out of ten a PBL student from my school will be better than the average trad. curric counterpart.

Clinical relevance: Because we do our learning in cases and not just by systems..everything we learn is mostly clinically relevant. We learn what tests to be ordered...how you read them...radiographs, ekg, echos..you name it I have probably already seen it and learned it pretty well after only 12 weeks. Well enough to speak about it. My traditional curric counterparts are lost when it comes to these things.

Presenting Skills: In our curric we have present our learning issues..usually in a way you would present on research as a grad student or on the wards as a 3rd/4th year about a particular disease. This is definitely a PLUS because by the time I get to my third year..these presentations won't be so much of a sweaty palm experience because I'd know how to do a thorough presentation under pressure. And it would only be a matter of catering to the expectations of that particular attending.

Camraderie: I think with only 40 people who actively chose to apply to a curric we are all very tight and love hanging out together despite the varying personalities. It's cool that such a large group can be so tightknit. Alos the M2 PBL students above us are very good at guiding us and taking us under their wings. It's liek a lil family..the second years even made us candy care packages for our first exam. It gave me a good feeling like everyone wanted me to do well. '


Feedback/Curriculum Improvement: Because our group is so small...faculty/administrators actually listen to our feedback about the program and quite quickly implement changes...often with the next class. These changes are almost always for the better. It feels good to know your school cares about what you think..AND that you can see changes you suggested in your tenure at school. Often times because of the massive scale of changes needed in a trad. curric., it will take forever for any changes to occur. There is also alot more redtape in my opinion..that just isn't there when you have one administrator managing your program..as opposed to 4-10..depending on thesize of yoru school.

Now of course there are some cons:

Class time: Mandatory face time sucks because even if you are a person who goes to every lecture/class..sometimes you just want to say f**k it and not go. For us you can't do that and are expected to be in group (5-7people) w/facilitator on mwf from 9-12pm. If you decide to miss you jeopardize 30% of your overall grade, which is determined by your participation, attendance etc. However, resource sessions/lectures pertaining to what you need to research are not mandatory and actually taped at my school so you can watch them whenever you feel like.

Boards: For a moment in my school's history PBL people were not doing as well on the bards as the trad. curric. simply because the majority of our tests are in essay/concept map format...when of course the boards are hardcore multiple choice. I think often times if you are writing essays you can get rusty on doing multiple choice questions. They have implemented some changes in the curriculum in recent years ..including self-exams that are mandatory online allmultiple choice exams and will guage your ability to do the questions and also helps you practice. This is a pain in the a$$ as they are long as hell. But, it has helped because the last two years i believe our step I average has been higher than the traditional curr. There is also a comprehensive all multiple choice question at the end of year 1. Another pain in the butt trying to remember something you learned in sept, when you are in may.

Individual Attention: Sometimes being well known because there are so few numbers is annoying in that you can't bullsh** out of anything. Too many times skipping group won't go unnoticed. And you can't give the same excuses over an over as they will remember the old excuses. If youa re trying to do a P=MD...pbl can often call for MORE just simply because no one wants to be embarrassed. I hate calling the office to call out of group..i know the same person will answer the phone and i know the same person might be thinking i am a slacker. If you are med school, odds are you have a personality that cares about what people think of you.

Subjective Grading: While the traditional curric..is just multiple choice block exams taht determine the ENTIRE grade...we have 30% of grade that is determined by the opinion of our facilitators. This has not and will not ever be quantitatively explained..ie breakdown on what they are grading on. It is based on their feelings about you in group...including attendance, participation, presentations and just overal demeanor. THis is highly subjective and often you will find yourself in one group working your butt off to only get 80% ..while your buddy is working..but not as hard..busting out with a 90%. They say it evens out as you can almost never have the same facilitator twice and you will odds are get around to getting the easier graders. But youa ren't thinkign about all that when you see a 75% for your group grade..and you knwo you did more work that several other people in different groups. It makes you feel like giving up and not doing anythign at all. Also essays aren't objectively graded either. There isn't just a right or wrong answer as it often is with multiple choice. Often you will find that if you had chosen to answer a different question...you could have put less down and gotten a higher grade. I found myself in my last exam picking very carefully which questions i answered vs just picking what i knew best/cold. I was trying to avoid the topics that i knew a hard grader would examine.

All in all, I am definitely pleased to have chosen my school's PBL program. I feel liek it works well with my personality and I am learning which is key. I definitely would have been more upset if i had not researched beforehand. I kind of knew what to expect and as a result, i am doing well. That's pretty much my advice for anyone choosing...

 

[bullhorn]

Most of the students I talk to who attend schools where there is a traditional, lecture curriculum have a tendancy to skip class.

My school is pbl.

In reality, I really won't know how helpful PBL is until I am on the wards. Usually, I have fun on the morning that the case is introduced, when we all sort of brainstorm ideas, questions, and differentials. It is also rewarding to understand how an intricate biochemical or biomolecular disorder may present at a clinic as opposed to in a textbook.

That said, here are somethings I don't like about PBL:

1. Group is too large.

2. Can be intimidating for people who have less of a science background.

3. If PBL is graded, people may be hesitant to ask questions and have important themes clarified, simply because they do not want to seem ignorant.

4. Also, as a result of grading, a large group size, and intimidating students, some people just shut-up.

5. The PBL case always follows the particular week's course content. A patient can have shortness of breath and tightness in his chest, but unless it's "heart week" at your school, you will probably be discouraged from bringing up the heart.


These are my gripes. Overall, it may be worth a try. I'll let you know in a few years!

I concur about the intimidation factor. Nowadays alot of medstudents will nto have a science background. And i see in my groups that the people who do can scare folks on the first presentation..using terminology those non-science background folks don't know..or for people like me..science background but unused for years..it can freak me out. It makes you think you need to step up your game bigtime...or shut up. But all in all, i think our facilitators account for this..as they know backgrounds from early on. Of course this didn't help me...with my molecular biology degree and i couldn't speak a lick of science jargon. 😱 I had forgotten most of it and i think my first facilitator expected more from me on that end. I've gotten a million times better because of the intensity..but i do feel for my friends who are completely lost when it comes to advanced anything. They took the basics to get in and that's where they would prefer we start. Of course we always have some joe knowitall starting from graduate level expectant knowledge frightening the hell out of even our facilitators. lol 😳