Problem Solving: Medicine vs. Science

[Nasrudin]

I have nothing to add. But want to anyway. As the subject interests me.

I think the notion that one thing is problem solving and another is formulary is only one way of looking at it. I mean. A professional weak side tackle has plenty to problem solve. But we tend to think of his 300 lb 4.4 running locomtion as a physical phenomenon. Maybe because he would kill all but a few freakish born gladiators among us. Of the same proportion of society as those of us who score above a 40 on this f'er.

The fact that we think of service industry problem solving as less than awesome compared to how well you ***** yourself to get your name on pubs is another discussion. Which i'm willing to have anytime. (crickets)

But with regards to the OP. I think your not respecting this aspect of game for what it is.

It is as these posters have said a reductionist and not an elaborative style of thinking. Some can do both. Some nfl weakside tackles are philosophers. But they are different art forms.

Go back to square one. Train like a grunt. To beat this obstacle course. That's all it is. It resembles nothing human in the practice of medicine. And it what we must all do for the chance to go forward.

Good luck.

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[QofQuimica]

The fact that we think of service industry problem solving as less than awesome compared to how well you ***** yourself to get your name on pubs is another discussion. Which i'm willing to have anytime. (crickets)

Getting your name on pubs isn't problem-solving either. Neither is getting grants. In fact, much of what scientists do on a day to day basis isn't problem solving, and maybe that's the root of the OP's discontent with his/her current career. BUT, science has a lot more room for creativity, original thought, and maverick ways of doing things than medicine does. The whole purpose of science is to learn new things, not to follow the clinical algorithms based upon expert opinion handed down to us from on high. You won't find yourself in front of a jury of your peers for not following a specific bench protocol, but woe unto you if you decide to go off the beaten treatment path and there's a bad outcome....

Even at your stage of the game, I highly doubt that you will disagree with me concerning the heavy conformity enforced by medical training and medical practice. So if the OP finds Big Science stifling, what's going to be their reaction to Big Medicine?

(P.S. You know I'm always willing to debate you, Nas. It's just that we're kind of agreeing here yet again. )

 

[Nasrudin]

Getting your name on pubs isn't problem-solving either. Neither is getting grants. In fact, much of what scientists do on a day to day basis isn't problem solving, and maybe that's the root of the OP's discontent with his/her current career. BUT, science has a lot more room for creativity, original thought, and maverick ways of doing things than medicine does. The whole purpose of science is to learn new things, not to follow the clinical algorithms based upon expert opinion handed down to us from on high. You won't find yourself in front of a jury of your peers for not following a specific bench protocol, but woe unto you if you decide to go off the beaten treatment path and there's a bad outcome....

Even at your stage of the game, I highly doubt that you will disagree with me concerning the heavy conformity enforced by medical training and medical practice. So if the OP finds Big Science stifling, what's going to be their reaction to Big Medicine?

(P.S. You know I'm always willing to debate you, Nas. It's just that we're kind of agreeing here yet again. )

Ok..ok.... but shhhhhhhh! Before the long coats come back and up my dose me of haldol.

I only roll up these nice balls of poo to throw from my cage at the "good monkeys." Who cozy up to the long coats. And loose their ability to bite and punch and swing free from the trees.

Point is. So much is said about what makes a good monkey. That we forget to think otherwise. A lecturer last year had every one of his slides slathered with corporate logos. A room full of facebook zombies didn't even notice.

I got the f out of there man.

It's better now. The conservative modes you speak of makes for certain rules of the encounter. More rules in some sense. I cannot disagree. But more cordial behavior also.

Pure analytic game is for hedge fund managers, theoretical physicists, and social engineers. You know. The people that brought us weapons of mass destruction, nightmarish atrocity, and global economic choas.

I had more freedom sitting on the docks of the san francisco bay than any scientist would ever dream of. I read hundres of books. Learned to play the guitar. And learned about the ****ty half hazard lives of long line fishermen.

So what.

I'll take my constriction of the patient encounter. And the fact that I'm not free to experiment with them. And problem solve the infinitely complex relations between human beings.

And am. As you know. Glad to be at least in some lowly way. Free of the notions of wide and glorious benefits of science. And my subjugation as it's cultural concubine.

If it means i go low and slow. To the community program. Fine. They can suck it.




Holy threadjacking.

 

[Nasrudin]

An example that might mitigate the strangenss of my online impression...because I'm not an idiot. I know that all these pharmaceuticals I'm studying were developed by teams of scientists, albeit with the support of enormous capital.

Why do we strive in medicine to "get published"? The neutrality of such a pervasive cultural notion is fantastically deceptive.

Whereas the patient interaction. However restrictive. Is clear of it's intent. Neglect or corruption in the former is celebratory. In the latter. Dangerous. Even to the self we seek to polish for display with implacable constancy.

And so on.

 

[QofQuimica]

An example that might mitigate the strangenss of my online impression...because I'm not an idiot. I know that all these pharmaceuticals I'm studying were developed by teams of scientists, albeit with the support of enormous capital.

Why do we strive in medicine to "get published"? The neutrality of such a pervasive cultural notion is fantastically deceptive.

Whereas the patient interaction. However restrictive. Is clear of it's intent. Neglect or corruption in the former is celebratory. In the latter. Dangerous. Even to the self we seek to polish for display with implacable constancy.

And so on.

That's just what you get when you have a group full of Type As. It's no different in clinical medicine; medical school is a microcosm of this. Look at your classmates whose lives revolve around maybe being AOA some day. Imagine what it's going to be like once you all hit the wards. Being AOA is nothing about the patients. But it's a darn nice thing to have on your CV if you want to get ahead and be a dermatologist.

I agree that you should go to a community program. I don't at all mean that in a derogatory way, which I think you already know. Just that you know yourself well and you know what matters to you. And you don't have to be untrue to yourself just to prove something to other people who have a different set of values than you do.

Also, since we're hijacking yet another thread, I'm splitting it up. We seem to have this effect on threads.

 

[Nasrudin]

That's just what you get when you have a group full of Type As. It's no different in clinical medicine; medical school is a microcosm of this. Look at your classmates whose lives revolve around maybe being AOA some day. Imagine what it's going to be like once you all hit the wards. Being AOA is nothing about the patients. But it's a darn nice thing to have on your CV if you want to get ahead and be a dermatologist.

I agree that you should go to a community program. I don't at all mean that in a derogatory way, which I think you already know. Just that you know yourself well and you know what matters to you. And you don't have to be untrue to yourself just to prove something to other people who have a different set of values than you do.

Also, since we're hijacking yet another thread, I'm splitting it up. We seem to have this effect on threads.

Yeah. Good idea. I don't like stomping on other's conversations.

I don't know. Seeing BS too easily and having an extreme distaste for it is kind of a curse. I'm not crazy though.

For example I have a classmate. A good-hearted dude. Has a burning curiosity about medicine and the science behind it. Will probably do great things in medicine. So when he talks about things that interest him in endocrinology. I listen and smile and wish him well in his investigative pursuits.

But how "far" does that take you in the game afoot all around us. Does everybody clamoring to get face time with "productive" research teams want to investigate things. Develop new knowledge.

No stretch of naive imagination can take me there. And I would be very happy to live there. On Sesame street. Where curiosity and creativity control the hearts of humankind.

Take it easy. Thanks for the conversation. Got a test tomorrow. I really like pharmacology actually. Surprsing. And a total relief.

 

[n3xa]

That's just what you get when you have a group full of Type As. It's no different in clinical medicine; medical school is a microcosm of this. Look at your classmates whose lives revolve around maybe being AOA some day. Imagine what it's going to be like once you all hit the wards. Being AOA is nothing about the patients. But it's a darn nice thing to have on your CV if you want to get ahead and be a dermatologist.

I agree that you should go to a community program. I don't at all mean that in a derogatory way, which I think you already know. Just that you know yourself well and you know what matters to you. And you don't have to be untrue to yourself just to prove something to other people who have a different set of values than you do.

I'm still early on in the application cycle and already am dodging conversations involving dominating step 1, AOA, specialties, etc. etc. The difference now is I don't have a fume hood to stick my head in all day to tune people out.

Good luck tomorrow nas!

 

[DrMidlife]

Back when I was working in the software industry, I had responsibility for hiring good people. Smart. Experienced. Personable. Capable. Motivated. Organized. Think-on-their-feet-and-make-good-decisions people. (That describes doctors as much as it describes engineers and project managers.)

With the best hires, the ones that made a huge difference the second they came in the door and kept going for years and years, do you know what they all had in common? They had waited tables, or worked a counter, or otherwise had a crap job...and they had to pay rent with that crap job...and they understood the worth of that crap job.

Put a smart person in a crap job and you'll find out how much responsibility they'll be able to handle in their bright shiny future. Talk about solving problems. Imagine what it takes to be 16 years old and very, very wet behind the ears and have to go against McDonald's protocol to get that nice 63 year old lady a cup of coffee that's not going to burn her hands. Imagine having to deal with a line of customers, in a friendly and professional manner, when the fryers are broken, when you've never had anybody, much less a huge stranger, voice hostility to you before. Imagine being off the clock and still taking the time to clean off a table for a customer who has nowhere to sit.

I'm overgeneralizing, and most of my experience is with software, but I'll tellya, the people who never had to survive on a crap job are, on average, ill prepared to handle corporate structure. What's research, what's medicine but a corporate job? The corporation is the NIH or the NAS or the hospital or the military or the partnership or the forms and contortions between you and reimbursement. Can you avoid talking about how things should work until after the fire is out? And then if you persist with talking about how things should be, are you expecting somebody else to push for change? Are you deeply offended when your academic superiority is not respected (every 5 minutes)? Are you able to focus on an immediate and responsible solution, instead of raising drama or arguing politics or jockeying for position? At least some of the time?

I suggest that problem solving is inherent in every job. As for lab vs. clinic, I suggest that the difference is whether the people being helped by your solutions to problems are future people or actual people. Neither discipline saves you from massive quantities of obstructive problems with people and policy.

Best of luck to you.

 

[n3xa]

Put a smart person in a crap job and you'll find out how much responsibility they'll be able to handle in their bright shiny future. Talk about solving problems. Imagine what it takes to be 16 years old and very, very wet behind the ears and have to go against McDonald's protocol to get that nice 63 year old lady a cup of coffee that's not going to burn her hands. Imagine having to deal with a line of customers, in a friendly and professional manner, when the fryers are broken, when you've never had anybody, much less a huge stranger, voice hostility to you before. Imagine being off the clock and still taking the time to clean off a table for a customer who has nowhere to sit.

Or having to deal with coworkers that couldn't quite figure out how to make the timing work when it came to waitressing (ie leaving a table without water or so much as a menu for a long period of time)... and getting chewed out by their customers because of it.

 

[Nasrudin]

Back when I was working in the software industry, I had responsibility for hiring good people. Smart. Experienced. Personable. Capable. Motivated. Organized. Think-on-their-feet-and-make-good-decisions people. (That describes doctors as much as it describes engineers and project managers.)

With the best hires, the ones that made a huge difference the second they came in the door and kept going for years and years, do you know what they all had in common? They had waited tables, or worked a counter, or otherwise had a crap job...and they had to pay rent with that crap job...and they understood the worth of that crap job.

Put a smart person in a crap job and you'll find out how much responsibility they'll be able to handle in their bright shiny future. Talk about solving problems. Imagine what it takes to be 16 years old and very, very wet behind the ears and have to go against McDonald's protocol to get that nice 63 year old lady a cup of coffee that's not going to burn her hands. Imagine having to deal with a line of customers, in a friendly and professional manner, when the fryers are broken, when you've never had anybody, much less a huge stranger, voice hostility to you before. Imagine being off the clock and still taking the time to clean off a table for a customer who has nowhere to sit.

I'm overgeneralizing, and most of my experience is with software, but I'll tellya, the people who never had to survive on a crap job are, on average, ill prepared to handle corporate structure. What's research, what's medicine but a corporate job? The corporation is the NIH or the NAS or the hospital or the military or the partnership or the forms and contortions between you and reimbursement. Can you avoid talking about how things should work until after the fire is out? And then if you persist with talking about how things should be, are you expecting somebody else to push for change? Are you deeply offended when your academic superiority is not respected (every 5 minutes)? Are you able to focus on an immediate and responsible solution, instead of raising drama or arguing politics or jockeying for position? At least some of the time?

I suggest that problem solving is inherent in every job. As for lab vs. clinic, I suggest that the difference is whether the people being helped by your solutions to problems are future people or actual people. Neither discipline saves you from massive quantities of obstructive problems with people and policy.

Best of luck to you.

Yeah....

Yeah. I can dig it. Even if it grazes my unsuspecting nose with a whoosh of a right cross.

The person brings the creativity with them. As they make the environment more interesting and more lively as they go for everyone.

But I can totally see how stressful situations, such as being an intern could put a wet blanket on the whole notion.

But perhaps a chance for problem solving. One's own perception. And one's own sense of harmony with situations. It's gonna be tough. And is why I want to find a field that maximizes my potential for success with these sorts of problems.

Which for right now. Amount to how cold can I get these beers without freezing them.

Cheers all.