Professionalism committees? please help me!

[pikachu]

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So I just found out that my school has this semi-secret committee where the clinical faculty gets together and discusses students who they feel are behaving unprofessionally. Of course I didn't find out anything about it until someone told me my name had been brought up in the committee for being late 2 days in a row for morning conference -- apparently the student isn't notified that the faculty thinks there is a problem until the committee has decided that they're going to sanction you somehow! Some dean let it slip that they had been discussing me. I had never even heard that it existed!

Is anyone else at a school who has this kind of a committee? What do you know about it? What kind of powers do they have? Is there anything I can do to redeem my record in front of them? It seems like I'm not even supposed to know that someone thinks I have a problem!!!!! sorta freaking out here... 😕 😡

 

[brianjc]

Just don't be late again and the problem should fix itself!!

 

[A.D.O.R.]

An aside: the funny thing about this whole pre-clinical evaluation thing is that "the crazies" don't act out until third year or once they start practicing. This whole evaluation thing is so ineffective.

 

[Samoa]

My pharmacy school had an informal one, which I found out about totally by accident. One of my professors inadvertently (or perhaps on purpose) referred in writing to a confidential memo that had been placed in my file, so I went to the Dean's office asking for it. Had I just asked for my file, it would have been removed, but since I asked for it specifically, they had to let me see it. The memo was an update on a plan by the clinical faculty to expel me. This is not paranoia--I have a copy of it.

What happened was that one part of the school's bureaucracy made an honest mistake, and the faculty reacted to it by trying to get rid of me instead of adapting their curriculum to my "disability" (which I didn't really have, but that's not the point). And not knowing that there was any kind of issue, I went on about my business until I was called in to see my faculty "advisor" to discuss why I had been absent from class for a couple of weeks (attendance was not required, and all classes were videotaped). Specifically, was my absence due to health reasons? I said no, but that there were some other personal matters I had needed to attend to during the daytime, and that I had been watching the videotapes and keeping up with class in the evenings. He told me it was OK to do that, but then wrote this confidential memo saying only that my absences were not due to any disability issues, and that they could proceed with the plan. And so the whole plan (or a lot of it anyway), was exposed. Almost too late, but fortunately not quite.

I was dismayed, not so much by their attitude toward students with disabilities--which I had known from the beginning, as that at a public institution, people with so much influence over a student's future could make such a plan without even warning the student involved. I was completely blindsided, and the fallout affected just about every area of my life for the next few years.

Since then, I've tried very hard not to let that experience define me and my career, and I think I've done pretty well. Hopefully you'll be able to do the same.

 

[pikachu]

Just don't be late again and the problem should fix itself!!

Wow. That was so insightful. I wish I had thought of that - I had no idea that everything could be this simple!

Seriously, perhaps if you had actually read my post, you might have realized that this issue had already been brought up to Committee X. (And I wanted to find out more about the type of things these committees do. Thank you so much Samoa for sharing your experience. I'm happy to hear that things have worked out for you and I'm hoping my experience will turn out similarly.) So it's not the kind of problem that will "fix itself." Maybe when you start practicing, you can tell your hypertensive patient who already has end organ damage simply to stop eating salt and maybe lose a little weight and her problems will "fix themselves" too. It should be so very EASY!!!! I can't wait until someone with your profound acumen and wisdom is treating someone I care about.

Is anyone else out there just a little disturbed that there are these committees which seem to be able to threaten a student with severe penalties (e.g., expulsion), based on subjective observations, without ever telling said student that someone in authority thinks there is a problem? This isn't day camp, for crying out loud. Professional school = tens of thousands of dollars, untold hours of work, and a hell of an emotional investment. We are devoting the best years of our lives to this learning and this service and this is the kind of B.S. the schools deal out? It's outrageous.

 

[kinetic]

This is not paranoia--I have a copy of it.

You know what sucks? People don't believe this stuff ever happens until it happens to them. I hear you, because every administration collects crap on people ...just in case they need to use it some day. It's total bullcrap. Either take action if something troubles you about someone, or don't; collecting stuff for later use is akin to blackmail -- "you know we have dirt on you, so toe the line!"

He told me it was OK to do that, but then wrote this confidential memo saying only that my absences were not due to any disability issues, and that they could proceed with the plan. And so the whole plan (or a lot of it anyway), was exposed. Almost too late, but fortunately not quite.

That guy is a total douche (assuming you are presenting an objective view of events). "Proceed with the plan"? You should have asked him if he thought he was James Bond or something.

 

[gioia]

This isn't meant to be sarcastic: Are you guys serious? You mean not only to we have to deal with our freaking out brains that we are actually striving to become physicians, but we have to watch our rear-ends too?

How many schools, Kinetic (because you have such colorful posts), do you think really do that?

I'm curious because someone's advice to me was, "Keep quiet in the beginning and don't get too friendly with anyone", like aliens were lurking.

 

[Medical123]

[Is anyone else out there just a little disturbed that there are these committees which seem to be able to threaten a student with severe penalties (e.g., expulsion), based on subjective observations, without ever telling said student that someone in authority thinks there is a problem? This isn't day camp, for crying out loud. Professional school = tens of thousands of dollars, untold hours of work, and a hell of an emotional investment. We are devoting the best years of our lives to this learning and this service and this is the kind of B.S. the schools deal out? It's outrageous.[/QUOTE]

I am a little disturbed by this. I know that there are professionalism committees, but I feel that if someone is doing something that is inappropriate, it is best to talk to them individually and WARN them that they could face Committee X if that particular behavior should continue. Give them a chance to rectify their performance! There may be a good reason why someone is late to class, etc.

 

[kinetic]

This isn't meant to be sarcastic: Are you guys serious? You mean not only to we have to deal with our freaking out brains that we are actually striving to become physicians, but we have to watch our rear-ends too?

How many schools, Kinetic (because you have such colorful posts), do you think really do that?

I'm curious because someone's advice to me was, "Keep quiet in the beginning and don't get too friendly with anyone", like aliens were lurking.

I have had experience with both sides of this practice (having information collected on me and collecting information on others). I don't advise not getting friendly with others, but I wouldn't go around thinking that the administration is on your side -- they're not.

 

[gioia]

I have had experience with both sides of this practice (having information collected on me and collecting information on others). I don't advise not getting friendly with others, but I wouldn't go around thinking that the administration is on your side -- they're not.

Aren't the aforementioned academic committees designed to keep the integrity of medicine intact (i.e. to prevent students from becoming Dr. Jeckyls)?

Don't administrations help select the student body and then do everything possible to keep attrition rates low?

 

[brianjc]

Wow. That was so insightful. I wish I had thought of that - I had no idea that everything could be this simple!

Seriously, perhaps if you had actually read my post, you might have realized that this issue had already been brought up to Committee X. (And I wanted to find out more about the type of things these committees do. Thank you so much Samoa for sharing your experience. I'm happy to hear that things have worked out for you and I'm hoping my experience will turn out similarly.) So it's not the kind of problem that will "fix itself." Maybe when you start practicing, you can tell your hypertensive patient who already has end organ damage simply to stop eating salt and maybe lose a little weight and her problems will "fix themselves" too. It should be so very EASY!!!! I can't wait until someone with your profound acumen and wisdom is treating someone I care about.

Is anyone else out there just a little disturbed that there are these committees which seem to be able to threaten a student with severe penalties (e.g., expulsion), based on subjective observations, without ever telling said student that someone in authority thinks there is a problem? This isn't day camp, for crying out loud. Professional school = tens of thousands of dollars, untold hours of work, and a hell of an emotional investment. We are devoting the best years of our lives to this learning and this service and this is the kind of B.S. the schools deal out? It's outrageous.

I didn't mean to make sound that simple. But on the other hand as outrageous as these committee's may be, if you just do what your supposed to do they will probably leave you alone!! And if you had profound acumen and wisdom you probably wouldn't have had a problem in the first place 🙂

But all the bashing aside, everyone can find themselves in these types of circumstances reguardless of what type of person they are. I do know that no medical student needs extra stress so I wish you well! 🙂

 

[labangel]

I just think that it's ridiculous to bring up someone's name for being unprofessional for being late on occasion. Anyone could have accidents/home issues that would make them late....it just seems like a BS way to try to go after someone. Besides, I think the more professional way to handle the problem would be to talk to the student directly. I know that we have professionalism committees and I know that I've on occasion spoken my mind about issues to different people. If that goes in my file so be it...I'd rather speak my mind than be an a** kisser. (Yes, I have issues with authority figures ) Luckily, I don't plan to go into any competitive specialties.

 

[Lo5]

This exact thing happened to me. I think I might have pissed the wrong people off, and then I gave them ammo ( failed a few classes). The kicker was I was not allowed to view these 'failed tests', and one of them (surgery departmental and shelf - we had to pass both) was written instead of multiple choice, and apparently graded by surgery residents as there were too few attendings to grade all the exams. After each failure you go before the gradings and promotions committee who have recommended to have you removed from school. This happened to so many people at that school. It sucks because I know there are people who have failed more classes than me, and now have their MD degrees and are currently in their resedencies. I think it boils down to having pissed the wrong person off. Who are these people?

1. Academic advisor - a person we were supposed to hook-up with occasionaly to discuss 'things'. Almost everyone I know didn't meet with their advisors, because they were usually in a specialty the student was not interested in, and the students simply chose another in an area they were interested in. My first advisor was a PhD, in her mid to late 50s and black and all she could ever talk about was how great her research was and how the 'man' was out to get her. We didn't 'connect' nedless to say, and I didn't meet with her again.

2. Small group facilitators. I'm pretty outspoken and committed to my opinions and ideas which were presented in small group. These small groups were a part of the curriculum (PBL groups) and were meant to investigate different patient cases to establish learning objectives as an attempt to expose students to information that was going to be tested on. In short, I can't remember an exact situation, but there were some heated discussions in those groups.

3. Fellow students. Watch 'em, especially if they 'have the ear' of someone who can make your experience worse.

There are more, and as I think of them they'll be included. I feel for the students that have had this kind of trouble, it definitely put a kink in my career. Now I'm paying back the loans, and am too broke to go back to school right now, but I know the longer I wait the harder it will be to get back into it. Anyway..
Good luck

 

[16846]

It's a small comfort to know that I am not the only one that has had to deal with problems like this.

I was accused of making a few posts on an Internet Forum, not terribly dissimilar from SDN, that were not particularly flattering to the institution I attend but were strictly factual and not libelous in any way.

I was subsequently contacted late one evening by the Student Body President and told that I had to come up to school. I told him no way, I was busy studying and was very tired. I was told that is was in my best interest to come up to school now and if I decided not to, it could have rather dire consequences on my continued tenure at this institution. I went to school and found a group of people waiting for me in one of the classrooms.

Totally confused about what was going on, they sat me down and proceeded to ask me a bunch of questions. When the questioning was over, I was told that the administration had already met, was convinced it was me, and they were going to expel me, but they wanted to give me the option of admitting to it. If I admitted I did it, I would have a letter "placed in my file" and be allowed to stay, but I would be on probation for two semesters.

I was never allowed to bring anyone with me, contact a legal representative, see the evidence against me, or ever have my case tried before one of the disciplinary committees. I was told it was a one time deal and it was only on the table while I was in that room. If I decided to leave and not accept, I would be expelled, no trial, no appeal.

Since I wasn't allowed to contact anyone, I didn't have any idea what my legal rights were or even what my options were besides what they told me they were. I knew I didn't have any choice and bent to their will, signing a document acknowledging my guilt, subsequent probation, and that I would be expelled if I ever did it again.

Considering they actually confronted me, I know about this "letter" but who knows what else has been put into my file that I know nothing about. I can guarantee that I will never be allowed to see the contents of my file without it being sanitized by the administration first.

The only hope I would have of actually seeing what's in my file is to come with police officers and a search/seizure warrant since they couldn't be prepared for that. I cringe to think of what they will put in my Dean's Letter or send to the programs that I apply to for residency, and how much of it will actually be true 🙁

 

[8744]

This isn't meant to be sarcastic: Are you guys serious? You mean not only to we have to deal with our freaking out brains that we are actually striving to become physicians, but we have to watch our rear-ends too?

How many schools, Kinetic (because you have such colorful posts), do you think really do that?

I'm curious because someone's advice to me was, "Keep quiet in the beginning and don't get too friendly with anyone", like aliens were lurking.

My son, you always have to watch your rear-end. Not just in medical school but in almost every aspect of life. This is not paranoia.

 

[8744]

This exact thing happened to me. I think I might have pissed the wrong people off, and then I gave them ammo ( failed a few classes). The kicker was I was not allowed to view these 'failed tests', and one of them (surgery departmental and shelf - we had to pass both) was written instead of multiple choice, and apparently graded by surgery residents as there were too few attendings to grade all the exams. After each failure you go before the gradings and promotions committee who have recommended to have you removed from school. This happened to so many people at that school. It sucks because I know there are people who have failed more classes than me, and now have their MD degrees and are currently in their resedencies. I think it boils down to having pissed the wrong person off. Who are these people?

1. Academic advisor - a person we were supposed to hook-up with occasionaly to discuss 'things'. Almost everyone I know didn't meet with their advisors, because they were usually in a specialty the student was not interested in, and the students simply chose another in an area they were interested in. My first advisor was a PhD, in her mid to late 50s and black and all she could ever talk about was how great her research was and how the 'man' was out to get her. We didn't 'connect' nedless to say, and I didn't meet with her again.

2. Small group facilitators. I'm pretty outspoken and committed to my opinions and ideas which were presented in small group. These small groups were a part of the curriculum (PBL groups) and were meant to investigate different patient cases to establish learning objectives as an attempt to expose students to information that was going to be tested on. In short, I can't remember an exact situation, but there were some heated discussions in those groups.

3. Fellow students. Watch 'em, especially if they 'have the ear' of someone who can make your experience worse.

There are more, and as I think of them they'll be included. I feel for the students that have had this kind of trouble, it definitely put a kink in my career. Now I'm paying back the loans, and am too broke to go back to school right now, but I know the longer I wait the harder it will be to get back into it. Anyway..
Good luck

Dude, I hear you. We had a small group session where I vigorously defended the right of a physician to not refer a patient for an abortion if it conflicted with his private morality. (Let's not argue that, please) The facilitator of what was supposed to be a confidential and frank discussion "ratted me out" to the course director who requested a meeting with me about my supposed intolerance and lack of professionalism. He was fairly arrogant and big-headed until I slapped down a copy of the hospital policy manual showing that a) Physicians in a public hospital in Louisiana are forbidden to discuss elective abortion with patients. b) Louisiana law protect physicians from legal jeopardy for not referring for elective abortions as a matter of conscience.

Kind of deflated him and the rest of the meeting was about how I might need to work on my communication skills. The point is, however, that he might have made some snotty comment in my record which I don't know about but which may be the proverbial ticking time-bomb when it comes time to apply for residencies. (this year)

Speak your mind. Don't be afraid of the consequences. But being late for conferences is dumb if your school is big on absolute punctuality.

 

[Medical123]

Geez! You people are scaring the heck out of me. I always knew that there were a few people in medical school that you had to watch your back around, but I never realized just how bad it was! I feel for all of you guys that have had to face the disciplinary committees! 🙁

 

[LP1CW]

I can't believe what I've been reading. This is wrong. So, someone got in trouble for posting on a forum like this one. So, if you criticize your school and it's a fair criticism, you can be suspended? How is that possible? Freedom of Speech?

I just can't buy this stuff. It's so wrong.

 

[kinetic]

Yeah, administrations are all about the intimidation factor. Bastards talk about ethics and acting "the right way" (which means, act like they tell you to); but when it comes to you, it's "hey, let's drag him in front of a committee with no representation and no understanding of his rights and illegally intimidate him with threats of expulsion versus a forced confession with documentation." Woo hoo! Let's hear it for principles and ethics!! Hey, if they were going to kick me out for POSTING on a forum, I'd tell them to suck my cock and see me in court, where I would make out like a bandit and use my money to urinate on their faces.

 

[Samoa]

Have faith in yourself, pikachu. If you work hard to be the best physician you can be, things will work out in your favor, regardless of this episode. The opinions of those faculty did a complete 180 once I started clerkships. Yeah, it was an uphill battle all the way to graduation. They gave me hell, and they continued to do so, because they're not the kind of people who can admit they're wrong. I doubt they would, even to this day. But I'm pretty sure I earned their respect in a way that most students never did. And I came out of it knowing that there is absolutely no obstacle I can't overcome, even in an unfair fight. And that is truly priceless.

This doesn't mean I like them, though. 🙂

 

[Pathos]

What kind of crackheaded medical school do you go to? AHAHAHHAHA! Wild laughter about getting in trouble for being late 2x. My first two years I never went to class and sat at home and studied! 🙂 Tell that committee you are sick of them and to shove off or you will make Columbine look like kids play! Or call em' racists or something, that really gets people to stuff it. Cheers! I'll have a drink to those poor med students forced to go to class.

 

[pristine21]

Holy **** now I am really scared.... I have gotten myself into a bit of a mess. My school like many has some problems with executing it's academics in a concise manner. I have taken it upon myself to e-mail the professors directly, and list in a (some would call it abrupt, but I would call it🙂 direct way. Now mind you these aren't trivial issues, I am pointing out huge mistakes in our class syllabus steering us in the opposite direction of the truth, as well as pointing out those who obviously don't want to teach, suggesting they make their materials self study (also pointing out the push by the LCME to do so in general.)

OK anyway, one of the teachers didn't appreciate it (whatever- no one likes to be told they suck) and sent a copy to the dean, who then told me I should go through our theme evaluation committee- which is kind of a joke and I know because I am on it- anyway, he also said to come to him if there was another problem.

I have also made several comments in opposition of one professor in particular who doesn't provide the materials for class (he is an excellent teacher and everyone loves him though- including myself) and then the day before the exam gives a "review" that basically tells us what will be on the exam. I am furious, this material is something I should be taught, and providing the resources ahead of time shouldn't be that difficult considering he teaches the same stuff every year... We are not hear to be coddled, we are here to learn, and everyone loves him (including me,) but I feel he lacks the much needed sense of honor in the very important job he does of educating future physicians.

I missed 10 points on an exam because the same professor chose to hand his exam questions in too late to get them on the exam, and decided to give a separate lab exam. I had planned to speak at the capital that day and made arrangements far in advance to take the exam early. Hence I lost the 10 points, got 2 points above average- and would have probably had an E (for excellent) on that exam had it not happened.

After recieving no reply from the professor, I went directly to our assistant dean and explained my dilemma, where he acted like he cared and said he would send an e-mail out reminding everyone that this was not allowed.

The next time I saw my class president, who happens to be a friend of mine, he said that at their last meeting when the class president and the deans get together they spend twenty minuets talking about how I am a "problem," and perhaps it would be in my best interests to back off.

I am furious- Perhaps it is not my place to reprimand teachers, and perhaps I made a huge mistake by making those initial comments, but I want to graduate from a school I am proud of, and to leave it as is would be a sword to my concience. I feel that anyone who strives to improve welcomes criticizm, and those who do not should not be in the field of education. I also find it offensive that certain teachers are often so lax, and take it as a direct blow to my very expensive and very hard worked for medical education, let alone my career as a physician.

So it seems as if I may have a note in my dean's letter stating my "problem with authority"

I have been told by most to just shut up and kiss ass- I still haven't decided.

 

[ubcredfox]

Reading this is frightening, but very true. I actually didn't think this ridiculously out of line administration phenomenon spread this far. It's surprising really.

A few more interesting university administration tidbits that may be important to some of you. The university generally operates under it's own laws, generally termed bylaws, that are rather intricate. The lawyers I've spoken to weren't even aware of the actual law of these bylaws, so having them defend you in a legal case isn't always so straightforward.

Secondly, it's amazing to see how far an administration will hound you with every shred of "legal" administration power, but when you - God forbid - start using the "rights" that you're "entitled" too, watch them quickly melt away in your fingers.

Oxymorons and draconian legality, that's where it's at for University administration.