Professors, Don't Delude Yourselves

[jdawg2017]

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I completely forgot about the didactics piece of thing... I have been extremely fortunate and largely trained in large universities and AMCs where "the" expert on a topic would usually be the person giving the didactic talk. I think that is a really excellent point a lot of you have raised about this piece of education that I could probably contribute to as part of a "training director" role at a clinical site. I will keep that in mind, for sure. I would not mind maybe teaching one night a week but I agree that the grading aspect of teaching is not my favorite. I do, strangely, like teaching undergraduates a lot. The ones who have been very engaged in my classes have made the experience rewarding, even when there are far more slackers. 🤣

 

[erg923]

I completely forgot about the didactics piece of thing... I have been extremely fortunate and largely trained in large universities and AMCs where "the" expert on a topic would usually be the person giving the didactic talk. I think that is a really excellent point a lot of you have raised about this piece of education that I could probably contribute to as part of a "training director" role at a clinical site. I will keep that in mind, for sure. I would not mind maybe teaching one night a week but I agree that the grading aspect of teaching is not my favorite. I do, strangely, like teaching undergraduates a lot. The ones who have been very engaged in my classes have made the experience rewarding, even when there are far more slackers. 🤣

Yes, I was a DCT in the VA for a few years. There is alot of bureaucracy and staff management with that too, though. My point was, I don't want people to think that working a night class is really the only way to do what you are talking about. I have 3 young children, and I cant really do "night classes" at this point in my life. At least not without sacrificing people and time that is valuable that you can never get back.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

I know a few folks who adjuncted while in 100% clinical roles at the VA and enjoyed it. Some taught classes exclusively online and others were in-person (pre-COVID).

A lot will just depend on how much you enjoy teaching (or whatever else you do), as has been said, and what your VA or AMC job entails. Some VA folks are very much there just to clock in and clock out, which works well for having side gigs. If you're participating in lots of extra stuff, it can be more stressful, but is still doable (e.g., I was heavily involved in training in the VA while also performing some non-VA work over weekends).

Edit: And yes, I agree 100% that getting involved in VA or AMC training can be a great way to participate in teaching without the headaches that can go along with adjuncting. You just likely won't get paid more for it (unless you become a DCT and work at a VA that bumps DCTs up to GS14).

 

[erg923]

I know a few folks who adjuncted while in 100% clinical roles at the VA and enjoyed it. Some taught classes exclusively online and others were in-person (pre-COVID).

A lot will just depend on how much you enjoy teaching (or whatever else you do), as has been said, and what your VA or AMC job entails. Some VA folks are very much there just to clock in and clock out, which works well for having side gigs. If you're participating in lots of extra stuff, it can be more stressful, but is still doable (e.g., I was heavily involved in training in the VA while also performing some non-VA work over weekends).

Edit: And yes, I agree 100% that getting involved in VA or AMC training can be a great way to participate in teaching without the headaches that can go along with adjuncting. You just likely won't get paid more for it (unless you become a DCT and work at a VA that bumps DCTs up to GS14).

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

There was a position advertised in the last few years (and I cant imagine its the only one that exists) that was a GS-14 for being the DCT of an internship and post-doc program at twin VA sites in the Chicagoland area. Now, it sounds like alot of work no doubt, but I think it was 100% that and no actual clinical time? If one wanted to be a pseduo-academic, teacher/trainer, and manager...might not be a bad gig for 40 hours/week at GS-14???

 

[AcronymAllergy]

There was a position advertised in the last few years (and I cant imagine its the only one that exists) that was a GS-14 for being the DCT of an internship and post-doc program at twin VA sites in the Chicagoland area. Now, it sounds like alot of work no doubt, but I think it was 100% that and no actual clinical time? If one wanted to be a pseduo-academic, teacher/trainer, and manager...might not be a bad gig for 40 hours/week at GS-14???

I've seen/heard of a few positions like that and would agree, it sounds like a pretty great gig overall. Last I heard, I think somewhere around half of all VA DCT positions were at the GS14 level, although I would wager that the vast majority aren't of the 100% variety mentioned here. Still, director of training is about the only GS14-level VA position I'd want.

Personally, if I were DCT, regardless of training program size, I'd push for at least 50% dedicated time. Even small programs can take substantial amounts of time to oversee. Unless the program were a well-oiled machine and/or you had strong administrative support, in which case something like 30% might be tolerable. Then again, I know of DCTs who received no protected time, or as little as 10%.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I want to push back against this comment if I may. I'm a new tenure-track assistant professor in a neurology department. My FTE is formally split 75 (research) and 25 (clinical). I am slated to assist with postdoc supervision and fellowship didactics and will also be boarded in three years. I work about 45-50 hours each week. All of this is to say, my life is pretty great. I'm never bored, and in many ways, I'm my own boss. Yes, there are acute times of "extreme pace" around grant deadlines, yet those may be mitigated by proper planning. If you take the approach of having a manuscript in every phase of development simultaneously and don't insist on leading each project, it's pretty easy to remain super productive. The cliche harried assistant professor who works 80 hours a week has not been my experience nor that of my peers from postdoc and grad school.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

For the adjunct gigs, I have found that its all about the institution. Pay, politics, priorities, pleasantness of the department. Honestly, I just teach online now in my PJs and the courses are pretty much rinse and repeat at the core with regular updates based on changes in the literature, student feedback, my whims and wishes, etc. It's more of a well paying hobby if you can get into it young and develop your courses and let it ride. Starting from scratch later in your career or doing it for less than ideal pay would lead me to leave. Honestly even having to do a F2F class these days would too, now that my institution has invested in this virtual thing. I love my students and academia. It is easy to me and enjoyable. But if I have to actually **work** for the $ during those hours I'll take my clinical rate, thank you very much.

 

[foreverbull]

For the adjunct gigs, I have found that its all about the institution. Pay, politics, priorities, pleasantness of the department. Honestly, I just teach online now in my PJs and the courses are pretty much rinse and repeat at the core with regular updates based on changes in the literature, student feedback, my whims and wishes, etc. It's more of a well paying hobby if you can get into it young and develop your courses and let it ride. Starting from scratch later in your career or doing it for less than ideal pay would lead me to leave. Honestly even having to do a F2F class these days would too, now that my institution has invested in this virtual thing. I love my students and academia. It is easy to me and enjoyable. But if I have to actually **work** for the $ during those hours I'll take my clinical rate, thank you very much.

Having taught at multiple places, I agree that the politics/quirks of each institution can make or break an adjunct gig. For example, expecting 3-4 papers from each student in a semester in an undergrad class, or a culture of curving grades, or a culture of handholding students and needing to email them several prodding emails to get them to attend class and let them know about the withdrawal period in several different ways (‘cause students don’t read the syllabus), or micromanaging the adjuncts can really affect the “joy” part of teaching. Particularly when the pay just doesn’t justify going along with standard practices that you aren’t thrilled about.

If adjuncting one class on the side is in your plans (whoever asked in this thread), I’d make sure it’s a subject you love, is easy to teach, and the institution is reasonable with their expectations. I find it ludicrous when schools require top-notch teaching/energy/effort from adjuncts yet pay them so little as to be laughable—you’ll want to make sure you aren’t putting in too much time to make it not worth it while balancing quality (after the first time you teach a course, which is very time-consuming by default). If the expectations are too high and unreasonable for the pay, the culture isn’t going to change around you (and adjuncts have no power to change it anyway), so it’s probably best to leave and use your talents elsewhere.

 

[icomeheresometimes]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

The AMC I'm working at currently is affiliated with the undergrad institution when it comes to teaching and employees at the AMC faculty group practice are able to teach an undergrad class there. If you happen to be able to find a setup like that, it's great -- I lucked into it as I wasn't at all aware it was an option here and I'm really enjoying it. Not sure how easy it is to adjunct, but my perception is that schools love to hire adjuncts but will horribly underpay you for it...so you'd really have to do it for the joy of the job, haha. I also personally think I wouldn't mind it, though!

Edited to add: I also think a lot of adjunct places are doing remote classes for the foreseeable future, so you'd have to consider whether or not you'd enjoy doing classes via zoom and/or asynchronous teaching with those types of spots.

 

[Sanman]

On a slight tangent, even though this was written by a historian, it sums up my current feelings towards academia perfectly: The Sublimated Grief of the Left Behind • Erin Bartram

Even though I was lucky enough to get a TT job, my university hired a new provost who cares about indirects from grants and nothing else, and unfortunately, getting grants with large indirects is unequivocally the thing I'm worst at. And it sucks that my great teaching evals, my numerous, highly-cited, well-regarded journal articles, even the small foundation grants I get don't matter anymore and yet so many people have told me that I have to keep doing my work because its unique and impactful or social justice-y or what have you, and it's like... no, I'm done burning myself down to keep everyone else warm. Someone else can do the work I would have done... or not.

(sorry for the slightly indulgent rant)

I understand that feeling. The recent focus on RVUs in my clinical work has me feeling similarly. Particularly as I have helped out by treating some outpatients that are significantly less complex than my patients and count for the same thing on a spreadsheet somewhere.

Reading the link you posted, the irony of our field strikes me. A science grounded in statistics and base rates that asks people to question intuitive assumptions yet simultaneously asks it's most gifted students to put aside statistics and continue to believe they will be the exception to the rule.

We should all get an F in stats just for attending grad school.