Professors, Don't Delude Yourselves

[NewNeuroDemic]

I found this piece in The Chronicle of Higher Education to be thought provoking and worthy of discussion. While I am continually worried about the trajectory of the professoriate, I am simultaneously grateful for the myriad of career opportunities afforded by a PhD in Clinical Psychology. That is, a high-quality Clinical Psychologist may work in traditional academia, academic medicine, private practice, business, or a combination of these. Sadly, many other doctorates do not provide such flexibility.

Opinion | Professors, Don’t Delude Yourselves

Your graduate students aren’t aiming for nonacademic jobs.

www.chronicle.com

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[WisNeuro]

I read this too, it doesn't really apply much to Clinical Psych, as historically, the vast majority of grads are shooting for non-academic jobs. I do think that academia will become more and more unattainable for those who want to go that route, as it was becoming harder even before the downturn in enrollment, which will make things worse as positions further contract.

 

[Sanman]

The piece puts into words the opinions I have generally held with regard to academia overall. My grad program was focused on producing clinicians and was honest about that, but I have many friends in other areas of psych as well as other academic areas who continue to struggle up the academic totem pole for no reason that I can understand. I am friends with several 40 yr old adjuncts with MA/PhD degrees that are starting to really sit down and think about retirement, home ownership, and other life issues for the first time. The pandemic has finally made them realize that there is no golden ring for them. Unfortunately, I think this is a symptom of the larger problem that faces the Millennial and younger generations. You jump through the hoops and there is no good job at the end of the tunnel. You are stuck just scraping by at the bottom. The adjunct prof with an MA degree, the Starbucks barista with ubiquitous English B.A., or any number of other jobs highlight this issue. People are living longer, working longer, and there will not always be enough "good" jobs to sustain all who want them. Plan carefully.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

To me it seems (wish I had data on this), that the academic market for clinical faculty is better than social/cognitive/developmental faculty. This is broadly speaking since there are some hot niche areas (e.g., diversity/health outcomes, fMRI researchers) but the average clinical applicant will have more opportunities than the average non-clinical. There are just so many grad programs that need clinical faculty and clinical undergrad classes continue to be very popular. Additionally, AMC jobs are often a blend and allow for movement across tracks and more AMCs are starting clinical programs. Finally, because so many clinical students do not want academic jobs there is a smaller pool of competitive applicants.

 

[Sanman]

To me it seems (wish I had data on this), that the academic market for clinical faculty is better than social/cognitive/developmental faculty. This is broadly speaking since there are some hot niche areas (e.g., diversity/health outcomes, fMRI researchers) but the average clinical applicant will have more opportunities than the average non-clinical. There are just so many grad programs that need clinical faculty and clinical undergrad classes continue to be very popular. Additionally, AMC jobs are often a blend and allow for movement across tracks and more AMCs are starting clinical programs. Finally, because so many clinical students do not want academic jobs there is a smaller pool of competitive applicants.

While this likely tracks with other data showing less competition with fields that have a paying industry (business ,tech ,etc) to compete for jobs , my feeling is that the academic opportunities may be easier than non-clinical psych, but more competitive than other healthcare fields (academic positions for social work, school psychology, nursing, etc).

 

[Ollie123]

Good article.

As someone very science-focused, my ONLY reason for pursuing a clinical versus experimental degree was because I knew it offered me something to fall back on if need be. And even within the research world, I feel like our degree lends itself to a wider range of activities than most other degrees. We can work as statistician/analysts or we can work in public health/advocacy. Someone with a degree in history or literature is going to be a lot more limited. Even someone with a degree in biology/chemistry will likely have a more narrow set of options. I'm lucky enough to have landed a TT gig, but I still reflect on whether I'd have been better off pursuing something else. As the 20 hours of "self-directed research" really involves a lot more administration and a lot less actual research once you hit a certain point. Even the science I do get to work on feels rushed and unenjoyable compared to my early projects.

The nature of the problem differs, but I do think this is an issue that extends far beyond academia. We delve into politics here, but I think capitalism has pushed almost everything to a breaking point and a reckoning is coming at some point.

 

[PsyDr]

IMO, it's brave to try to get into an established career track in one of the 414 APA approved doctoral programs, staffed by an estimated average of 20-30 FTEs, which had a substantial retirement "boom" in 2016, and have been replaced with faculty with an approximate median age of 49, of whom approximately 10% retire each year. And when those jobs open up, you are required to complete an average 6 year tenure application process, while competing with an estimated 10% of the workforce, which is increasing by approximately 3000 new psychologist graduates each year.


Inflation last year was 6.2%.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

I'm in agreement with the previous comments. I too feel fortunate to have landed one of those rare tenure-track jobs, and I'm especially grateful for the various income streams and flexibility afforded by my training (as DynamicDidactic articulated). It does seem like there are more opportunities for clinical folks versus non-clinical.

 

[borne_before]

In school psychology we have the reverse problem. This year has been especially good for those seeking tt positions. But, our field is especially immune to the academia plantation system because the school system always needs more school psychologists. Our field is graying and every year more retire.

But, that was a huge reason I left educational psychology for school psychology. I wanted options outside of the ivory plantation. It seems like we’re going back to how things were in the 1800s - only the rich kids could afford to dick around in the ivory tower.

Btw - I make like 30% in my very middle of the line salary than some of my professors with tenure.

However, my dad spent 1970s to 2010s being a tenured, and full professor. At the end he was making like 120k per year, just teaching like 4 classes and basically stagnant research wise. But his field is also very practitioner oriented. The university politics killed his soul though.

 

[calimich]

very interesting article and lots was relatable. No question that tt jobs are extremely competitive. I've been on two searches now and we received ~150 applications each time. I also agree with others in feeling immense gratitude for landing a tenure-track position in a place we wanted to live, and believe it was a combination of years of preparation, refining my search, and fortunate timing. During internship year I went on the tt job market and received 0 interviews of any kind. A year later as a post-doc I had many phone interviews, several campus visits, and two offers, and the year was 2016. As far as the search, I looked beyond the ~400 APA doctoral programs and focused on smaller colleges and undergrad or MA programs; I was also open to 2-year colleges as long as they were in a place we'd enjoy living.

There are other options for tt jobs besides APA doctoral programs. I teach undergrads at a liberal arts college and although I can't think of a recent grad from my program who's tt at an R1, I have several grad school friends who teach at community colleges, other small liberal arts schools, state colleges, professional schools, and within the military - some are traditional tt jobs, others are "clinical professor" positions or something similar. The teaching of psychology is not going away and remains very popular with undergrads.

And as I'm now a few months away from tenure (March!), PsyDr's comment resonated - after getting the job we essentially go through a "6 year tenure application process." I think it's been worth it.

 

[cara susanna]

In school psychology we have the reverse problem. This year has been especially good for those seeking tt positions. But, our field is especially immune to the academia plantation system because the school system always needs more school psychologists. Our field is graying and every year more retire.

But, that was a huge reason I left educational psychology for school psychology. I wanted options outside of the ivory plantation. It seems like we’re going back to how things were in the 1800s - only the rich kids could afford to dick around in the ivory tower.

Btw - I make like 30% in my very middle of the line salary than some of my professors with tenure.

However, my dad spent 1970s to 2010s being a tenured, and full professor. At the end he was making like 120k per year, just teaching like 4 classes and basically stagnant research wise. But his field is also very practitioner oriented. The university politics killed his soul though.

I'm super curious, is school psychology not getting a lot of new people? And, if so, any thoughts as to why?

 

[cara susanna]

That article is interesting because, with all of that drama around the "Bad Kidney Friend" NYT story, I've actually seen a lot of discussions about MFAs in writing and how (not) useful they are.

 

[niceman]

In school psychology we have the reverse problem. This year has been especially good for those seeking tt positions. But, our field is especially immune to the academia plantation system because the school system always needs more school psychologists. Our field is graying and every year more retire.

But, that was a huge reason I left educational psychology for school psychology. I wanted options outside of the ivory plantation. It seems like we’re going back to how things were in the 1800s - only the rich kids could afford to dick around in the ivory tower.

Btw - I make like 30% in my very middle of the line salary than some of my professors with tenure.

However, my dad spent 1970s to 2010s being a tenured, and full professor. At the end he was making like 120k per year, just teaching like 4 classes and basically stagnant research wise. But his field is also very practitioner oriented. The university politics killed his soul though.

This is so true. And a doctorate in school psych provides the flexibility of getting licensed as both a school psychologist and a psychologist, which is a big plus for mobility (and also why many of them don't want to do academia even though it is relatively easy to get a TT position). It is also a tough sell when the starting salary is $50k for some TT position and after 6 years they are earning $70k, which is the starting salary for some school psych positions. Most people going into school psych want to help kids. After learning about academia and receiving subpar research training compared with other fields, they would really need to have a lot of passion and other financial resources to pursue that route.

 

[niceman]

I'm super curious, is school psychology not getting a lot of new people? And, if so, any thoughts as to why?

Most programs are specialist programs so they are not focused on research and produce primarily practitioners. There are a lot fewer doctoral programs to begin with and TT positions are poorly compensated so most doctoral students in school psychology would prefer practice to academia. In terms of research, grant writing training and supports are extremely limited so only a very small proportion of school psych profs actually get million-dollar grants. But because it is hard to hire school psych professors, external grants are not emphasized as much to get tenured (though I know in some more research-focused universities people started not getting tenured because of research funding/productivity requirements imposed by new presidents/deans). Coming from one of the research-intensive school psych programs, ALL students from at least the last two cohorts transitioned out of school psych. It is a very important field, but currently it is just not training or retaining researchers well.

 

[Sanman]

In school psychology we have the reverse problem. This year has been especially good for those seeking tt positions. But, our field is especially immune to the academia plantation system because the school system always needs more school psychologists. Our field is graying and every year more retire.

But, that was a huge reason I left educational psychology for school psychology. I wanted options outside of the ivory plantation. It seems like we’re going back to how things were in the 1800s - only the rich kids could afford to dick around in the ivory tower.

Btw - I make like 30% in my very middle of the line salary than some of my professors with tenure.

However, my dad spent 1970s to 2010s being a tenured, and full professor. At the end he was making like 120k per year, just teaching like 4 classes and basically stagnant research wise. But his field is also very practitioner oriented. The university politics killed his soul though.

That is another issue. 120k/yr is VA salary money and I am barely out of the early career stage. I also, honestly, work much less than any early stage TT faculty.

 

[WisNeuro]

That is another issue. 120k/yr is VA salary money and I am barely out of the early career stage. I also, honestly, work much less than any early stage TT faculty.

Very good point. Overall salary really isn't a very good marker as the hours vary quite a bit. As you implied, I know many academicians in the low 100k, but that work 50-60 hours/week on average. Some less in the off months, but more in end of semester/grant deadline periods. Compared with making the same amount in a 25-30 hour work week, which would you take?

 

[albatross_at_crossroads]

[quoted deleted post]

Wait, really? Out of everyone here, you seemed really keen on the academic track. I'm sad to hear it has been such a disappointment. Do you have an idea/want to share towards what area you'd like to transition?

On topic: The Canadian clinical psych profs from heavy research programs really want people who will stay in academia. Just had a recent chat with one of them, who told me in no uncertain terms that they do not want to admit another clinical student that will only do clinical work after graduating. That most say they want a research career to get admission and in their past 15 years or so of supervising, they ended up with no "academic legacy" of sorts. I mean I understand that if you're in academia you want to train future academics, but I feel like these profs are also pretty deluded when it comes to the job market. The clinical job market might be better than the experimental one, but it still requires people to move and sacrifice without a guarantee that their dream will happen. Grad students and applicants are very aware of this and say almost anything to get into a program, but know that once they graduate there's little reward in following the tenure road, especially now.

 

[borne_before]

I'm super curious, is school psychology not getting a lot of new people? And, if so, any thoughts as to why?

We get a ton of new people - it's just that most people in the field have a specialist degree, which is in between a masters and doctorate. It’s just that you don’t need a doctorate to be a “school psychologist” who only works in a school. IIRC, we only produce less than like 200 PhDs each year. But, my program was APA accredited, so was internship, and I'm licensed. My doctoral training consisted of more therapy, assessment, research, clinical hours, etc. than those with EdS, although there was some overlap for the first two years.

Many doctoral level school psychologists, are currently on the front lines of autism assessment, LD, and their treatment, and focus much more on the neurodevelopmental disorders than clinical child psychologists in practice. I think of us as the specialists in neurodevelopmental disorders and assessing for that. Many of the pediatric psychologists I know have school psych PhDs.

Many clinical psychologists have like no knowledge of what a school psych does, or why they even exist. But, there is at least one for every two or three schools in the entire united states. That's a ton of school psychologists, with the between a masters and doctorate degree, with their boots on the ground. Most people with EdS degrees have no desire to do any research or step foot in the ivory tower. Theyre totally happy with doing LD/ED evals for their state department of education.

They make a good amount of money for just a little more than a masters, get good bennies, and work a 175 day contract each year. It's not the worst gig in the world.

So, doctoral programs are more focused on creating EdS than pumping out the PhDs. That's one reason for the shortage.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

At my previous position, there was a master's-level school program. The 2 tenured faculty that ran the program did a lot of additional school psych work outside the university. The university did not pay well but they drove really nice cars. I checked recently and they both seem to have left the university. It really does seem that working in academia as a school psychologist is less worth it.

 

[Sanman]

[quoted deleted post]

I'm not sure what your plans are, but good luck. What I will say is that it is much easier to compete against the general public than a subset of a subset of overachievers.

 

[PsyDr]

The teaching of psychology is not going away and remains very popular with undergrads.

And as I'm now a few months away from tenure (March!)...

1) Congratulations!
2) That's a very fair point. I left out all of the undergrad positions in my rant.

[quoted deleted post{

1) Aren't you like the MVP of early career psychologists? If there's no hope for you, then many are screwed.
2) I was offered my academic jobs the old fashioned way... by charming people with unearned confidence.

 

[Shiori]

I briefly considered academia. I have a strong research background for my level of training and my research is in the "hot" new areas. I think I would have a decent shot, especially if I was willing to uproot myself and abandon my family.

It's finally starting to sink in that I don't have to do something even if I'm good at it. I especially don't need to build an identity around it.

 

[iliketohelppeople]

First year on the TT at an undergrad regional public comprehensive school. Looking at this as a 3 year post-doc to decide if I want to do academia or not. Things that are nice are day to day autonomy, get to do some cool research that I choose, and I get to mentor/teach students which I overall like.

However, there are some issues: poor pay, especially for someone with a clinical degree, this poor pay offers less autonomy in other ways (e.g., have to do 'extra' work to make a better salary). The teaching load here is also challenging - I like teaching and giving quality course, but when I do 4 classes a semester and have 50 students per class, I cannot feasibly do what I consider high quality teaching practices, unfortunately. Also, hearing some admin talk about salary compression - which is a real issue - but as a reason to not pay new folks more money strikes me as quite problematic. I haven't fully decided on if I am all-in on this path, but am looking at this as a way to hone some other skills (mostly around data science) and then see if I want to move on to something else.

@futureapppsy2, I didn't know you were transitioning out of academia - definitely echo some of the other posters here that you are an MVP - but, I hope that transition goes well for and wish you the best. Also, at some point, would be curious to hear more about that decision and your transition process.

 

[ClinicalABA]

A few years back I considered (for a hot minute!) transitioning from an adjunct/guest lecturer side gig to a full-time TT position at a regional state U. Primarily a teaching school, with minimal research requirements. The pay (albeit for a 10 month contract) was about 50% of what i was making in my appllied sector day job, plus I would've lost the extra adjunct money I was getting. My cooleagues in the department tried to sell it as a lifestyle choice- summers off, flexibility in scheduling, autonomy, working with students. I get all of these things- minus summers off- with my current combo of clinical gig and adjuncting, so there was no way to justify it. They ended up filling the position with a grad from one of the top academic programs (in ABA) in the country- a recent grad who hadn't yet tasted the sweet waters of private agency clinical work (or else didn't have a lot of better options salary-wise for an academic position.

@futureapppsy2 -congrats and best of luck with whatever you do. Even in the relatively short time you've been in academia, you've definitely left your mark.

 

[ClinicalABA]

UF?

Thanks, all--honestly, it's hard because I truly love(d) my work (even with the poor as hell hourly pay) , but in the end, my sub-area doesn't let you out-publish or out-impact your pedigree, and that really, really sucks. A lot of pedigreed folks are good, don't get me wrong, but sometimes, it just makes me want to scream, because I'll be looking at people with the same year of graduation as me with literally 15% of the articles I have and 5% of the citations I have (and equal grant funding) and people will legit tell me that "they're better researchers than you because they went to [pedigreed program]. They will always be better researchers than you." And when I ask how/why, I just get told to accept my place on the hierarchy and not ask questions.

(Btw, @ClinicalABA , I'm teaching Group Therapy this semester and the mini-unit on addressing challenging behavior in groups was legit just me teaching them ABA, including differential reinforcement. I'll forever be a behavior analyst).

Great guess! The program director came from UF, and he recruited another grad for the opening. I believe they were both Vollmer's students. Its not all about money and by all accounts they seem happy, but they came from a grad program where they were worked very hard and held to high standards. Seems like a lot of work and time to end up with a max contract after decades of service of less than 100k.

At various times in my career I've tried to not be (at least outwardly) a behavior analyst. Doesn't ever seem to last too long! I guess there's just something about the parsimony of behavior analysis that keeps me coming back to it.

 

[erg923]

[quoted deleted post]
This is terrible. I just find this so incredibly crazy at this point in time, though. People/leaders in a healing profession (albeit academic sub-pop) are literally saying, or close to it, "know your place" and judging you on silliness such as where you went to school more than 5 years ago? Is that right? Thought that ended after post-doc and would certainly be erased by "da money" you may be brining in? Not to mention you seem to be researching and show stopping in some current hot topics, right?

You also seem to be much more committed and neurotic (compliment, truly. I mean you did openly admit you spend time reading "Reddit" for your job) about psychology and its application than I ever was or will be. What more could a university really need or want? What in the hell sub-field of psychology is this?

 

[Sanman]

2) I was offered my academic jobs the old fashioned way... by charming people with unearned confidence.

 

[erg923]

Ross up for full tenure season 10. Started NYU as adjunct in season 7 teaching one class? Nice trajectory!

Yea...know my "Friends." Big deal, wanna fight about it!?

 

[Sanman]

Ross up for full tenure season 10. Started NYU as adjunct in season 7 teaching one class? Nice trajectory!

Yea...know my "Friends." Big deal, wanna fight about it!?

A man of many talents, apparently!

 

[ClinicalABA]

2) I was offered my academic jobs the old fashioned way... by charming people with unearned confidence.

I got mine the even "older" fashioned way- all the smarter people said "no" and I naively agreed to take on 2 new courses with one month's prep time! Now my college teaching pays for my kids' college education.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Ross up for full tenure season 10. Started NYU as adjunct in season 7 teaching one class? Nice trajectory!

Yea...know my "Friends." Big deal, wanna fight about it!?

Ross up for full tenure season 10. Started NYU as adjunct in season 7 teaching one class? Nice trajectory!

Yea...know my "Friends." Big deal, wanna fight about it!?

“ . And if I get it, I'll finally be able to complete my field research! And there will be an article about me in the "Paleontology Review"! Yeah! That'll be the first time my name is in there, without people raising serious questions about my work!”

 

[erg923]

And if I get it, I'll finally be able to complete my field research! And there will be an article about me in the "Paleontology Review"! Yeah! That'll be the first time my name is in there, without people raising serious questions about my work!”

And @futureapppsy2 for the Noble Prize....

 

[Sanman]

I ran across this article that is a few years old, but an interesting and more nuanced take.

Is the Long Hard Road to Academia Worth It?

 

[Shiori]

I ran across this article that is a few years old, but an interesting and more nuanced take.

Is the Long Hard Road to Academia Worth It?

This was incredibly validating to read. Thanks for the link!

 

[cotn_psych]

I ran across this article that is a few years old, but an interesting and more nuanced take.

Is the Long Hard Road to Academia Worth It?

It's the economy, stupid...

FWIW when I got an industry job out of postdoc my salary nearly doubled. A year later I am making almost 3x my postdoc salary. I still work 50-60 hrs a week, use R, and business is just as complicated a mess as clinical work. I saw a post for a senior associate professor at a state school in a fairly HCOL making about the same as me. For those just graduating, it is incredibly frustrating to think that it would take nearly 10 years to make something that is attainable just a year or two out of school.

 

[Sanman]

It's the economy, stupid...

FWIW when I got an industry job out of postdoc my salary nearly doubled. A year later I am making almost 3x my postdoc salary. I still work 50-60 hrs a week, use R, and business is just as complicated a mess as clinical work. I saw a post for a senior associate professor at a state school in a fairly HCOL making about the same as me. For those just graduating, it is incredibly frustrating to think that it would take nearly 10 years to make something that is attainable just a year or two out of school.

It is the economics. However, beyond that it is culture. In an era where people are arguing over pronouns and folks get cancelled over jokes in an elevator, academia has done little to promote equity and, in fact, increased the number of hoops required to enter their ranks over the decades while leaving those without benefactors to struggle with low pay and, often, no benefits. Turns out that bastion of progressive thinking is not very progressive.

 

[Shiori]

Yeah, I have been less than thrilled with the "progressive" places I've been. I have worked in both overtly and covertly racist places and have expended an immense amount of energy trying to make them less terrible. My worst experiences happened when I even remotely threatened someone's sense of being a good person because they're not like other white folks. I'm getting to the point where I just want people to pay me what I'm worth and I go home. I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut though. It's a curse.

 

[borne_before]

The only way I would enter academia is with tenure.

 

[cara susanna]

I actually was up for two T-T jobs--one I made it to the stage of the on-campus interview--but I would have made less than half my current salary in the VA. My husband said, did you really go to school all this time just to earn 40k?

 

[Sanman]

I actually was up for two T-T jobs--one I made it to the stage of the on-campus interview--but I would have made less than half my current salary in the VA. My husband said, did you really go to school all this time just to earn 40k?

While I was applying for post-docs/jobs right after graduation, I applied for one T-T position in NYC with a whopping salary of...$35k. Didn't even get an interview.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

One of the best things that could have happened to be was not getting a TT position, even though that's all I wanted since Day 1. Now I adjunct teach, assist on grant funded research, and come and go to the ivory tower as I please to fill that romanticized academic hole in my heart, while I fill up my wallet elsewhere.

 

[jdawg2017]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

 

[WisNeuro]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

At least here, it's very easy to adjunct. You definitely have to be in it for the joy aspect though. It's hard to justify working dozens of hours through teaching/grading/prep to make what I could in a few hours on the IME side.

 

[Sanman]

At least here, it's very easy to adjunct. You definitely have to be in it for the joy aspect though. It's hard to justify working dozens of hours through teaching/grading/prep to make what I could in a few hours on the IME side.

Honestly getting spoiled by teaching the interns/post-docs didactics. I enjoy the prep and teaching parts and grading/paperwork are minimal to non-existent.

 

[WisNeuro]

Honestly getting spoiled by teaching the interns/post-docs didactics. I enjoy the prep and teaching parts and grading/paperwork are minimal to non-existent.

Yeah, the clinical training stuff was fun while salaried. After a while it was just making some quick updates to slides and off we go.

 

[summerbabe]

Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

Really glad you're thinking about what really matters well in advance of needing to commit to an initial career direction.

One thing I'd encourage you to pay attention to during internship is what it feels like to work a 8-5ish MF job and focus on different tasks/outcomes than grad school. Will you find yourself missing academic productivity/processes or relieved that you can spend your attention elsewhere?

Also, grad school schedules make it really easy to accommodate teaching a single class so unless you can get an adjusted work schedule outside of standard business/clinic hours, would you still want to adjunct if it was during evenings after a full work day? Would that take away from other meaningful things in life?

 

[cara susanna]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

I work full time in the VA and don't think I could handle another job. One thing you could do is check out VAs with academic affiliations or training programs. For instance, even though my job is mostly therapy I'm affiliated with our local academic medical center and involved with our psychiatry residency. I teach a yearly seminar and also serve as a supervisor for psychotherapy cases.

 

[Sanman]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

Depending on the route you are going, you may not need to adjunct. If you are thinking VA or AMC, there are generally opportunities to teach and mentor as this stuff is essentially volunteer work on top of clinical/research duties. Outside of the stuff below the R2 schools, I can't think of anyone that it is primarily paid to teach. The focus is primarily on either research productivity/grant money or clinical case load. So, I don't think you will have a problem finding opportunities in these settings to teach in some way. I know that I was certainly welcomed when I showed interest in teaching as the department is always looking for more help with didactics.

 

[erg923]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

I guess, to a certain degree, I can understand why your academic mentors may be "pushing" you in one direction. But its your life, not theirs, so this should have no real substantive impact on your decision.

There are other ways to experience "the joy of teaching" without tolerating the crappy "per class" rates at most schools. In other words, there are indeed some other ways to get the fulfillment of "teaching" without actually being in an undergrad or grad school classroom. Sometimes I feel like half my job is meeting with providers and agencies and "teaching" things (its not, but it can be time intensive when it happens). Whether that is gently reminding about first-line best practices in the field, providing evidence-based literature updates, reviewing basic behavioral interventions and psychological science, reminding about base-rates and other clinical biases, education on proper treatment plan drafting/writing, specific case feedback, or just proper usage of current CPT codes...

I am in the managed care industry personally, but something somewhat similar exists in the VA in the form of clinician/trainers positions. VA central office stuff. And there are always the elusive and generic "Implementation Science" positions that people in the academy seem to believe are there in droves. But these are quite scarce, so far as I can tell?

While I agree that someone has to write papers and studies in academic journals that most clinicians will never read... I would assert that my current role is MUCH more impactful in actually shaping provider knowledge/behavior.... and the overall functioning of the larger healthcare system. All in 40 hours or less/week.

 

[PsychPhDone]

This thread has been super helpful to hear about everyone's different experiences in and outside of academia.

For folks in the clinical world, how reasonable is it to adjunct 1 small-ish class at a CC or local university to hold onto the "joy of teaching" without the B.S. of the academic job market/politics? I am hopefully going to match in this internship cycle and plan to do a 2-yr post-doc after internship to be consistent with the Houston Conference Guidelines so I can board-certify in clinical neuropsychology. I really enjoy clinical work a lot, but I feel like my background and mentors are pushing me to go the TT route. (For context, I have been quite productive on the research front during grad school, with ~20 articles, about a third of which I am first-author on and in decent-to-very-good journals.) Applying to internship gave me the opportunity to reflect more on my personal values (e.g., family and work-life balance), and I can say that not a single TT professor I know who was hired in the last decade has the life I want to have, so I know I am going to have to chart my own path. I can also firmly say that my productivity during grad school has had a negative impact on my personal life, and I don't want to keep up this extreme pace in a TT environment.

I am considering a career either in an 80/20 clinical/research role at a VA or AMC. Do any folks on here also adjunct one small class on the side? I would love to hear about your experience, as I have LOVED being instructor of record for a few classes I have taught during my time in grad school.

I personally have not pursued this but our staff (VA) gets tons of adjunct teaching requests from local universities. Mostly graduate level. Many of our psychologists teach a night class or change their VA tour to accommodate a course.