Program added to our orientation last minute, and I have a trip planned

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Propofol7

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I'm not sure what to do here and if this should be brought up or what not, but it seems highly unfair.

Ever since match day, the deal was that we had 5 days of orientation this week. Then this week they told us we need to come in next week as well. Problem is that I have a trip planned for next week. It seems to me unfair, especially given a July 1 start date on the contract, that they add an extra week of orientation on top of the week we are already attending, and all last minute. It totally ruined my trip plans and obviously money lost.

Is there anything that can be done about this? Or as residents we have no rights and therefore I should just stay silent?

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No. You belong to the residency program. Even during orientation consider yourself interviewing for the job because they can still drop you before considering you technically hired.
 
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So you started this week with orientation and assumed next week was a week off before starting 7/1.

Did they explicitly tell you that next week was completely off, or did you assume it based on "5 days of orientation"? It's a bit weird to have orientation for a week and then a week off...usually once orientation is done, you're off and running.
 
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So you started this week with orientation and assumed next week was a week off before starting 7/1.

Did they explicitly tell you that next week was completely off, or did you assume it based on "5 days of orientation"? It's a bit weird to have orientation for a week and then a week off...usually once orientation is done, you're off and running.

There was a orientation schedule, and the schedule was for M-F of this week. They never explicitly said that next week was off, but given the schedule for this week, and given the July 1 start date, we thought that by process of elimination that next week was off.
 
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There was a orientation schedule, and the schedule was for M-F of this week. They never explicitly said that next week was off, but given the schedule for this week, and given the July 1 start date, we thought that by process of elimination that next week was off.

Sorry, but that was...a bad assumption to make without checking first. You have no chance of recourse here; general wisdom is that orientation date = start date.

Many programs actually start before July 1, which is why planning any trips/weddings/etc. in June before intern year is a big gamble, especially the last 2 weeks.
 
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There was a orientation schedule, and the schedule was for M-F of this week. They never explicitly said that next week was off, but given the schedule for this week, and given the July 1 start date, we thought that by process of elimination that next week was off.

Why would they have you come to town, have 5 days of orientation, and then give you a week off?

You are also coming off the joke that is 4th year, and have been matched for months, so maybe you should have taken your "last hurrah" trip already.
 
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Well for one we aren't getting paid for orientation. Our first paycheck is July 15 and includes the two weeks leading up to that. So I didn't think the job began on June 15.

Ok so I won't bring it up and eat the cost and disappoint my friends. I guess that's life now.
 
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For what it's worth when I started residency out orientation ended up starting June 1st....which was way earlier than I had anticipated and had also planned a trip. I was really upset for a while thinking I wouldn't get to go. I ended up talking to the residency coordinator and just asking what was actually happening that week and if there was a way I could make it up. It ended up being bls/acls stuff and I was able to get certified beforehand and it was fine. Turned out another one of the interns also had a vacation planned then and missed some things. Not saying it is the norm but maybe just feeling it out and seeing what is supposed to happen and trying to get it done another time could work. It worked out ok for me...honestly we didn't do anything with the residents so there was no backlash because they had no idea about what was happening during the orientation. Now that I'm a 3rd year I don't even care what is happening until the interns actually start. Also, I'm a 3rd year and still have a job so it couldn't have hurt me too much.


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Theoretically, they can't require you to be at orientation and not pay you. Realistically, they can make your life miserable.

In general, it's a bad idea in residency (or in many other jobs, for that matter) to assume that if your schedule is empty, that you just don't have to go to work.

As mentioned above, it would be reasonable to contact the program and find out how "required" this is. But you should be polite, and apologetic, about it. You are probably legally fine if you refuse to come because you're not getting paid, but I doubt that's how you want to start with your program. You could probably also retroactively demand payment for your entire orientation period.
 
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Theoretically, they can't require you to be at orientation and not pay you. Realistically, they can make your life miserable.

In general, it's a bad idea in residency (or in many other jobs, for that matter) to assume that if your schedule is empty, that you just don't have to go to work.

As mentioned above, it would be reasonable to contact the program and find out how "required" this is. But you should be polite, and apologetic, about it. You are probably legally fine if you refuse to come because you're not getting paid, but I doubt that's how you want to start with your program. You could probably also retroactively demand payment for your entire orientation period.
PD is correct. orientation by law is work and must be paid. My residency program didnt pay us and someone asked about it went to HR and lawyers and the following year it was paid. They just put 1st year salary over 54 weeks instead of 52.

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PD is correct. orientation by law is work and must be paid. My residency program didnt pay us and someone asked about it went to HR and lawyers and the following year it was paid. They just put 1st year salary over 54 weeks instead of 52.

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Well that's not really a win, if they just decrease each check to cover 54 weeks and you end up with the same salary.
 
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Well that's not really a win, if they just decrease each check to cover 54 weeks and you end up with the same salary.

Yeah, don't think that's kosher either. My contract gives a start date and the salary after that start date. Start date doesn't include orientation and should be paid separately.
 
Yeah, don't think that's kosher either. My contract gives a start date and the salary after that start date. Start date doesn't include orientation and should be paid separately.
My fellowship orientation was unpaid. Talked about it here before, got upset, even asked the state DoL if that was legal (they said it was).

I actually recently looked at my contract. They just snuck a line in there that "first years pay will include the prior orientation" (I don't remember the exact verbiage offhand).
 
I have found this happens every year to a few people, most commonly with people who haven't had a real full-time job before. It sucks but the lesson here is never to assume anything and to verbally and textually confirm everything.
 
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I believe we were paid at minimum wage rate during orientation.

But I agree, get used to unexpected work. How much more watered down can residency get these days.
 
There was a orientation schedule, and the schedule was for M-F of this week. They never explicitly said that next week was off, but given the schedule for this week, and given the July 1 start date, we thought that by process of elimination that next week was off.

Sounds like a huge mistake on your part assuming you were off. Just because you don't have the schedule doesn't mean you don't have to be there, it could just mean they haven't decided where you need to be yet. You started at the beginning of orientation. It's already begun. Next time, be sure to ask before you make trip plans.

I didn't get a schedule for the second week until orientation had started. They also gave me an "updated" schedule for orientation week where many things were moved around to accommodate attending schedules. Plus you have all of the "optional" get togethers with current residents sprinkled in. They even made it a point to tell us to make sure we are in town for nights and weekends in case they need to schedule something, and gave us a list of random compliance/HR stuff we needed to do "once we got into town" but before orientation "started". Seems pretty standard, honestly.
 
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Well the week has come and gone, so what came of it?

Not that it matters now, but I agree with everyone above that in general/hindsight it was probably poor planning to schedule a trip in between orientation and start of residency.

When you learned about the potential conflict did you talk to the program at all? If nothing else take this as a lesson in the need to plan ahead and communicate well. It probably would depend on what sort of trip it was (important family trip planned well in advance vs a booze cruise with a few friends) but I would think most programs would be willing to work with you in trying to reschedule if you approached it in a manner like aPD mentioned.

I've just been through my 3rd Orientation (Residency, Fellowship and now 2nd Fellowship) and I still don't plan anything for around this time as things change. To be honest I took this whole week off (current residency contract went through the 30th) thinking I would have at least some time to do some stay-cation sort of things with the family here but of course the week got filled with orientation stuff and I didn't get to spend nearly the time with them that I would've liked to.... such is life.
 
wasnt paid on orienation and wasnt paid on vacation either.
i was whispered if i wanted to u wud need a lawyer

but u really want to lawyer up against your pd for that 2000bucks?
only gotta make things bad.
 
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Theoretically, they can't require you to be at orientation and not pay you. Realistically, they can make your life miserable.

In general, it's a bad idea in residency (or in many other jobs, for that matter) to assume that if your schedule is empty, that you just don't have to go to work.

As mentioned above, it would be reasonable to contact the program and find out how "required" this is. But you should be polite, and apologetic, about it. You are probably legally fine if you refuse to come because you're not getting paid, but I doubt that's how you want to start with your program. You could probably also retroactively demand payment for your entire orientation period.

When I started Residency we had 1 week unpaid orientation which we all complained about and after a couple weeks the GME retroactively paid us for that week. So it may be worth a shot for OP to politely protest the nonpayment for orientation.
 
You shouldn't have assumed you had the week off, but to be honest, I did the same thing. I made plans for a trip (and I'm glad I did because I got engaged!) in the middle of orientation because I thought orientation was over and we had a few days off before starting. When they added something to orientation, I spoke to my program and they understood. They let me makeup what I missed. Now I'm chief resident, so it didn't hurt me and no one made my life miserable.
 
wasnt paid on orienation and wasnt paid on vacation either.
i was whispered if i wanted to u wud need a lawyer

but u really want to lawyer up against your pd for that 2000bucks?
only gotta make things bad.

So podiatry school doesn't pay either?
 
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Theoretically, they can't require you to be at orientation and not pay you. Realistically, they can make your life miserable.

In general, it's a bad idea in residency (or in many other jobs, for that matter) to assume that if your schedule is empty, that you just don't have to go to work.

As mentioned above, it would be reasonable to contact the program and find out how "required" this is. But you should be polite, and apologetic, about it. You are probably legally fine if you refuse to come because you're not getting paid, but I doubt that's how you want to start with your program. You could probably also retroactively demand payment for your entire orientation period.
I know we've had this argument before about being required to pay for orientation. So I pulled my contract to see exactly what it said:

COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS: "During the term of this Agreement, the Resident shall receive compensation at an annualized rate of $X (or current stipend for the Resident PG level, if different) payable in twelve (12) monthly installments of $Y for a full year appointment. This compensation includes Resident's compulsory attendance at New Resident Orientation." ($X and $Y being actual numbers in the contract, with X being exactly 12*Y)

It goes on to describe benefits and whatnot. They explicitly wrote into our contract that we'll get paid 12 times. Orientation (which took place in June) certainly wasn't counted. Our first paycheck (scheduled July 16, though it was actually sent out late due to issues with HR) even only counted July 1-15, so it was a half paycheck (we'll get one July 15 the year we graduate that will be another half paycheck for June 16-30).

I flat out called the DOL for our state to ask if being unpaid for orientation in our circumstances was legal and they said it was. Given that and the fact it was written into the contract for our state institution, I honestly don't think you're 100% correct about "they can't require you to be at orientation and not pay you". I wish it were true, but it doesn't seem to be.
 
I had two weeks of orientation before residency and a few days before fellowship. None of it was paid.

And I would have assumed that the first day of orientation is the first day of work. No vacations after that date unless approved by the program director.

You'll learn that residency is unlike anything you've ever experienced before. That's both a good and a bad thing.
 
So, when I joined the military I had boot camp that ended on a Friday, and I assumed I could show up to my next duty station whenever and they were like, "nope, you gotta go there now!" and I was like, "whaaaaaaat, I planned a vacation! You expect me to eat the cost?"

Then, at this other job, they had the calendar for the shifts through August, so I made a trip for September. Then, halfway through August my boss posts a new schedule with me working that week in September. She didn't even ask me if I was available that week! How was I supposed to know I was gonna have to work?

So, this type of horse **** happens everywhere.
 
I know we've had this argument before about being required to pay for orientation. So I pulled my contract to see exactly what it said:

COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS: "During the term of this Agreement, the Resident shall receive compensation at an annualized rate of $X (or current stipend for the Resident PG level, if different) payable in twelve (12) monthly installments of $Y for a full year appointment. This compensation includes Resident's compulsory attendance at New Resident Orientation." ($X and $Y being actual numbers in the contract, with X being exactly 12*Y)

It goes on to describe benefits and whatnot. They explicitly wrote into our contract that we'll get paid 12 times. Orientation (which took place in June) certainly wasn't counted. Our first paycheck (scheduled July 16, though it was actually sent out late due to issues with HR) even only counted July 1-15, so it was a half paycheck (we'll get one July 15 the year we graduate that will be another half paycheck for June 16-30).

I flat out called the DOL for our state to ask if being unpaid for orientation in our circumstances was legal and they said it was. Given that and the fact it was written into the contract for our state institution, I honestly don't think you're 100% correct about "they can't require you to be at orientation and not pay you". I wish it were true, but it doesn't seem to be.

Interesting. So per your contract, orientation was "paid", but not really since you got the same salary for July despite the extra time in June for orientation.

Despite Googling this, I don't see a clear answer. Residents are salaried and hence are considered "exempt" employees, which means they are exempt from the FLSA (i.e. no overtime, etc). The FLSA is also the law that states that orientation has to be paid, so perhaps they are also exempt from this.

I expect there's quite a bit of state law on this topic that might make programs different. And then some programs will just decide to pay people for orientation because it's the "right" thing to do.

But I agree with your criticism, my statement is too sweeping / broad.
 
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