Program Meaning and Future

[StudentEV]

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I am a sophomore majoring in Psychobiology with a minor chemistry, and I am on the PreMed track. I am interested in doing an MD/PhD program, but i'm not sure what I want to do after my undergrad.

My GPA is good, 3.7/3.8, and I would like to spend my future working in either the pharmacology field (working in pharmo development/research in Pfizer, J&J, etc...), or as a physician, or something related to either...

I would like to know the benefits of pursuing an MD program, PhD program, as well as a MD/PhD program.

• Which program would be right for my interest career wise,
• what salary to expect after pursuing the degrees,
• how many years does each take to complete,
• etc...

Any input you could give for advice on what these programs mean, and what to expect from them would be great.

 

[bd4727]

I am a sophomore majoring in Psychobiology with a minor chemistry, and I am on the PreMed track. I am interested in doing an MD/PhD program, but i'm not sure what I want to do after my undergrad.

My GPA is good, 3.7/3.8, and I would like to spend my future working in either the pharmacology field (working in pharmo development/research in Pfizer, J&J, etc...), or as a physician, or something related to either...

I would like to know the benefits of pursuing an MD program, PhD program, as well as a MD/PhD program.

• Which program would be right for my interest career wise,
• what salary to expect after pursuing the degrees,
• how many years does each take to complete,
• etc...

Any input you could give for advice on what these programs mean, and what to expect from them would be great.

Just search the threads, all of these questions have been answered many times. Briefly:
- all sound potentially viable for you; it depends on if you want to have a research only career or want to have some patient care too
- varies a lot by specialty, institution, title, region of the country, etc
- MD: 4 yrs + residency; MD/PhD: ~8.5yr avg nationally; PhD: ~6yr avg nationally

 

[URHere]

I would like to spend my future working in either the pharmacology field (working in pharmo development/research in Pfizer, J&J, etc...), or as a physician, or something related to either...

Most of your questions have been answered extensively in other threads, but I would like to comment on your interest in pharmacology, because this was also my area of interest and I chose to pursue the MD/PhD path.

I think that when it comes to pharmaceutical design, the type of design and research you want to do will really decide which path is most appropriate for you. If you are interested in finding a completely novel drug (not similar in structure to old drugs, etc) that will treat a disease, then working in industry with a pharmaceutical company may be right for you. This is mostly done by throwing a number of drugs at a bacretia/parasite/etc and seeing what results in death. Those drugs are then generally sent off-site to collaborating labs to determine why those drugs work and how safe they are to cells, mice, and eventually primates. You can usually find a job at a pharmaceutical company with your undergraduate degree alone.

If you want to be in the lab that determines how these drugs work, how they interact with living animals, etc then the PhD would be right for you. Some of these labs also design drugs of their own, but the technique is very different than above (i.e. you generally take a known drug and tweak it to get around resistance, change how it is metabolized, etc). To get the PhD, you enter the PhD program out of college and finish whenever your thesis is done. Most programs initially estimate this as 5 years, but the reality can be more like 5-7. It can be shorter if you are very lucky, or longer if you are on the other end of the luck spectrum.

As for the MD or MD/PhD - In my opinion, they are only useful if you know that you want to practice clinical medicine in some way. If you do not have a strong chemistry background (stronger than an undergraduate major), the MD alone will probably leave you as a trainwreck once you get into lab and start trying to synthesize things. That is my reason for the MD/PhD - I want to spend some time in clinic, but I also need the training before I can be comfortable as a syynthetic chemist. As my mentor told me: it takes 2 years of full-time, specific training to become a good organic chemist. It takes the rest of the PhD to figure out how to use that. The time for the MD and MD/PhD will vary depending on your field of interest and how long the residency program lasts and how long your PhD takes.

 

[StudentEV]

First off, thanks both of you for the help.

URHere, the path you took seems very interesting, and is definitely a field I too am interested in. Correct my if I am mistaken, the MD/PhD option seems to only be 'necessary' if I choose to pursue a field regarding the application and drug discovery, while the PhD program seems to only examine the drug discovery aspect.

I agree with your option for MD/PhD direction, is just seems to be more interesting, well I think so at least.

On another basis, if it is indeed about ~8.5 years as bd4727 says, what do you do in those years? As I understand, about 2 years PhD work, 4 years of MD and residency, and 2 more years of finishing your PhD? Since this 'commitment' to the program seems very intensive, is there time for other things such as working, etc...

Thanks again.

 

[URHere]

Correct my if I am mistaken, the MD/PhD option seems to only be 'necessary' if I choose to pursue a field regarding the application and drug discovery, while the PhD program seems to only examine the drug discovery aspect.

I am unsure of what you mean by "application" in this context. PhD researchers can certainly test their drugs in living animals, and (in some cases) see them through clinical trials. They may also research how their new drugs interact with existing compounds, how they bind to protein, and how they distribute across different body compartments (lipid, bone, blood, etc).

The MD is not necessary for the research end of things. It is only necessary if you plan to see and treat patients as a clinician. Note, I am not saying that MD training is not useful to this type of research. It gives you a better understanding of problems your treatment population may face, which other drugs they are likely to take, and which organ systems are most compromised. However, this added bit of knowledge alone is probably not worth the 8+ years of exclusive MD training.

On another basis, if it is indeed about ~8.5 years as bd4727 says, what do you do in those years? As I understand, about 2 years PhD work, 4 years of MD and residency, and 2 more years of finishing your PhD? Since this 'commitment' to the program seems very intensive, is there time for other things such as working, etc...

The MD/PhD + residency is far longer than 8.5 years. The MD/PhD program itself involves 2 years of medical training (typically lecture courses), followed by PhD training (time depends on when you finish. Average is 4.5 years, range is more like 3-6 years), followed by 2 additional years of MD training (clerkships, where you work in clinic).

From there, you enter residency. Residency times vary depending on specialty (low end is 3 years, high is 7-8). It is also common for MD/PhD students to complete fellowships after residency to further sub-specialize and continue with research. These last another 1-3 years.

Keep in mind that all of this is after 4 years of undergraduate education. So...it's a long time. Make sure it is worth it for what you want to do.

As for outside employment, some programs specifically prohibit it. If it is allowed, there may be time during the first 2 years of medical school or during the PhD depending on how much time the student chooses to spend studying and working in lab. It is certainly possible, but working too much outside of school may extend your time in the program, and that should be avoided.

 

[StudentEV]

By application of drug use, I meant it as you said, seeing it used past the lab, such as in clinical trials.

I am unsure of what you mean by "application" in this context. PhD researchers can certainly test their drugs in living animals, and (in some cases) see them through clinical trials.

The MD/PhD + residency is far longer than 8.5 years. The MD/PhD program itself involves 2 years of medical training (typically lecture courses), followed by PhD training (time depends on when you finish. Average is 4.5 years, range is more like 3-6 years), followed by 2 additional years of MD training (clerkships, where you work in clinic).

From there, you enter residency. Residency times vary depending on specialty (low end is 3 years, high is 7-8). It is also common for MD/PhD students to complete fellowships after residency to further sub-specialize and continue with research. These last another 1-3 years.

Keep in mind that all of this is after 4 years of undergraduate education. So...it's a long time. Make sure it is worth it for what you want to do.

This all seems like quiet a bit of work. I'm trying not to scare myself away though. I love what I am studying, and I want to pursue research, but I don't want to bore myself with sitting around doing literature searches my whole career. With that in mind, and with an MD/PhD which seems to consume ones life, I wonder what field of work I could find myself in with a PhD. Could I still work in labs working on drug research and development?

If I wanted to see the application of drugs, I could always find a degree in business and pursue the marketing and expansion of drugs.

As I stated in my first message, MD/PhD seems very interesting, hence my interest, but it all seems like one too many years too me. Is it possible to find myself working in labs as well as research with a PhD? An MD would only open the door to seeing patients correct?