Program name and shame

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Denture-man101

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I see that the medical residency has a program name and shame to protect potential candidates. We definitely need a dental version!
 
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Big Hoss
 
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
 
This is a place where we can discuss things. Topics such as program environment, morale, strengths and weaknesses, etc is not something one should be afraid of to talk about here. As long as we keep it professional and don’t drop any names you shouldn’t have a problem.
 
OMSDoc said:
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
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Another important thing we should mention: negative comments such as xyz program is terrible because it lacks in the following areas and residents are improperly trained…
Imagine if you were a resident at that program right now. It’s pretty insensitive and reflects poorly on those residents.

Think of it being like negative Yelp reviews. They are completely one sided and may not reflect the truth.

Let me tell you of a story. Me being an omfs rising administrative chief many years ago I went through all the applications and hand picked who was being interviewed. I saw an applicant who was originally in an omfs program and was reapplying after being kicked out. He wrote in his personal statement negative things that you wouldn’t imagine. Problems with his attendings, the med school etc etc. let me tell you it can reflect poorly on you.
 
I would not recommend a name and shame thread on this forum. It creates liability for the website.

If people want to create that on a different website, so be it.

Life is all about leadership.

An excellent resident can do well in a mediocre program.

And a mediocre resident can do poorly in an excellent program.
 
OMSDoc said:
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
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Why are you so resistant to the idea? A healthy dose of applicant/resident ranting is healthy. Plus, public bashing may put a spotlight on certain programs with recurring themes and discourage them from continuing malignant behavior. I highly doubt a trial lawyer will be salivating over an anonymous poster (who apparently must also be a millennial) denouncing a residency program on a public forum. I don't understand why you are trying to scare off posters... unless you have something to hide? :scared:
 
It just shows poor leadership skills...see my previous post.

And I don't agree that public vitriol is healthy.

And people here are not as anonymous as they might think.
 
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OMSDoc said:
It just shows poor leadership skills...see my previous post.

And I don't agree that public vitriol is healthy.

And people here are not as anonymous as they might think.
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Yes they are.

We cannot have all threads saying how program X is amazing and everyone should apply. It’s okay to express negative, but professional, opinions.

As long as people don’t identify themselves it’s fine. Do you have a lawyer on retainer to subpoena every poor yelp or Google review? Please do not discourage healthy discussion.
 
I certainly don’t want to be the administrator so I will defer to you.

I stand by my statement.

I am not “discouraging healthy discussion.” I have not said “don’t say that“.

Discuss away.

Just know that I would never ever hire anyone as an oral and maxillofacial surgeon who thought that it was good judgment to post and name names on a “name and shame“ thread.
 
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Schmoob, I find it interesting that you can find time to call me out publicly for saying that certain behavior is unprofessional, but you cannot find time to call out swell times for implying that I partook in the gist of the initial post.

Good to know.

I am disappointed in you. I attended dental school before the OMS matching program.

I just want every young person here who looks forward to a positive career in the dental profession to know that this is not like a Yelp review.

It is OK to say that you did not have a good time at a particular program or that X or Y happened.

But you need to understand that certain statements can be construed as defamation. Posting such online is not what I would do if I was looking to advance my career as an oral and maxillofacial surgeon.

If you get sued for defamation, it is not whether you win the verdict; the process that is the punishment.

Heretofore, I have always been impressed by the moderators on this forum.
 
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Yes, we get it. We are all young millennials and you are old.

My comments on this thread are merely participation, not moderation. I have to follow the forum rules on a much stricter level.

You should also remember the letters that come after your name. I’m pretty sure they are not JD. If they are, then I will wipe the egg off my face. So I would recommend that you stick to what you know instead of providing legal advice. I am not an oral surgeon, so I would not provide any advice on oral surgery because I am unqualified to do so.

You’ve said what you wanted to say so now you can leave it alone. Let the millennials (which I am not, btw) discuss the topic without you derailing the thread any further. If you don’t like it, feel free to take a nap.
 
I wonder when we delineate gen z from millennials. Pretty soon I’m guessing, crazy how time flies
 
OMSDoc said:
I am still disappointed in you, Dr. Schmoob. You are not improving your stance with me. It is good to know that you are not posting on this thread as an Administrator.

First, it is ironic and notable that, on a thread where I have recommended that people show restraint in what they post on "name and shame" threads, you post that I should not post on this topic at all, unless it meets some standard that you have in your mind. With my experience in this profession, I have no idea what that is. If you, or any of the people who like your vituperative posts above can explain that to me, with a modicum of respect and logic, I am all eyes and ears.

Second, I am older, but not old. I definitely do not take naps. Naps are awesome I love taking them as a 25 year old. I work 50 hours a week. Age and experience are a continuum. My point, which apparently was not clear, is that older people tend not to be melded with electronic devices, and do not feel the need to post the first thing that pops into their heads about any particular topic, for better or worse. The longer you live, you will find that life is easier if you show some restraint.

Third, you do not need to be an attorney to know what defamation is, nor to have some attorney threaten you with that. If your contention is that we should not make any legal decisions without consulting attorneys, then my attorneys' fees will go through the roof. I do this for our group practice, and I have done it for years. My partners appreciate it. Having said that, I have no hesitancy to consult attorneys.

While it is true that few dentists or specialists are ever sued for defamation, I do know is that the chief problem with malpractice litigation always seems to be that the patient who has a problem sees another practitioner, and the patient hears from that practitioner that the first practitioner did them wrong, and then the patient files a lawsuit.

I will always encourage here at SDN that members of our profession not attack other members of our profession. Ever. The result of such behavior is only the diminution of the profession. Next to the patients, the profession is the most important thing to me. And, as cited by the original poster, this is not confined to oral and maxillofacial surgery.

People who have an attraction for "name and shame" threads with regards to residency-match ranking, and who post exposés on those threads, do harm to the profession. Such behavior should not be encouraged.
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Should we encourage the behavior of malignant residency programs that abuse residents?

What would you suggest is the best way to expose these situations if it is considered 'harm to the profession' to even discuss this topic?

Not discussing this opens the door for abusers to stay in power and residents to continue being stomped on.
 
No comments on name and shame thread, but malignancy in general…

I’ve certainly see and heard things said by attendings that definitely qualify as malignant, however residents are mostly powerless to change this, and attendings can be extremely set in their ways and unwilling to even consider their behavior may be inappropriate, also OMFS pays so well in private practice that replacing attendings is challenging so programs are not interested in removing attendings or disciplining them…bottom line, a name and shame thread won’t make any difference and due to competitiveness of OMFS people will continue applying to “malignant” programs regardless…the only practical change a program can undergo is a positive change in the resident culture which can greatly impact the moral of a program for the better. Also, it’s oddly easy to adopt the malignant attitude of attendings even while you consciously hate their attitudes, so being proactive to not become the thing you hate is also important.
 
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PerioDont said:
Should we encourage the behavior of malignant residency programs that abuse residents?

What would you suggest is the best way to expose these situations if it is considered 'harm to the profession' to even discuss this topic?

Not discussing this opens the door for abusers to stay in power and residents to continue being stomped on.
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It seems like you’re bringing up a separate topic.

The original point of this thread was people naming and shaming, online, program directors who broke the rules of the residency match.

You are bringing up a totally different topic about “malignant“ attendings.

I have seen my fair share of malignant surgeons.

This warrants a separate thread.
 
OMSDoc said:
It seems like you’re bringing up a separate topic.

The original point of this thread was people naming and shaming, online, program directors who broke the rules of the residency match.

You are bringing up a totally different topic about “malignant“ attendings.

I have seen my fair share of malignant surgeons.

This warrants a separate thread.
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I must have misunderstood, that is not what I understood the point of the thread to be.
 
I usually just lurk the dental forums, but I just had to jump in here because these kind of threads are highly relevant from the med student perspective.

The original point of the thread was to name and shame programs. As a medical student, we go crazy with the name and shames (our most recent reddit thread had 1600+ comments), but no one ever goes so far as to name people (to be fair, a lot of people do say "the PD did this", "the coordinator did that", etc). It is 100% in our enlightened self-interest to let each other know what the deal is with these malignant programs. There are certain programs I'm never applying to, for example, because of these name and shame threads. Name and shames are extremely high yield
 
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Yes, I guess I misunderstood this also. I was operating under the assumption that the entire thread was about the breaking of the rules of match rankings, which is different than naming generally toxic residency cultures.

"Malignant" programs certainly need exposure, and malignant attendings need redirection. We have such a program at our hospital. I call it "Doctor-be-nice-school." Anyone who behaves thus does not last long.

I think desertrat12 makes the best point. Dealing with this boils down to leadership of residents.
 
OMSDoc said:
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
Click to expand...

Not putting things in writing is exactly the strategy that abusive people use to hide harassing communications and for maintaining one-sided records within malignant organizations in which administrators keeps documentation but you as the employee or student do not know about and additionally are not privy to seeing so that you are unable to contest their documentation of what they claim to have transpired. Because of my experience in toxic organizations, I always follow up any and all discussions with a recap email with an invitation to add their addendums to my impression of what was discussed and agreed upon and that non-response will be interpreted as agreement with my recap. This is meant for their records and mine so should something come up later, especially if contradictory, I have prior documentation to refer to.

Lawyers always coach us to document well as part of CYA. If it wasn't documented, it didn't happen and thus we are responsible for our own record keeping. If you were to lodge a complaint to HR, the state board, or be involved in a lawsuit, shouldn't one have some kind of evidence to back up one's claims?
OMSDoc said:
And I don't agree that public vitriol is healthy.
Click to expand...


I also find it interesting that you were so quick to label potential discussion as public vitriol. Bringing up the potential issue of defamation may have been well-intended in your mind but it seems to have come across poorly based on the responses of others. I would even go so far as to say that your suggestion of trial lawyers gearing up to make some libel money sounds preemptively accusatory as if residents would come here to make some knowingly false claims. HOWEVER, there are definitely cases in which doctors have tried to sue people who wrote negative reviews. Doctors usually do not win these cases because of the standard of having to prove at least a negligent if not reckless disregard for the truth or knowingly and intentionally communicating a false statement. Opinions, especially with evidence, will not come across as having disregard for truth or intention to make false or misleading statements.

As peers in having attained a DMD/DDS, if informed consent and decision making is valued in the contexts of medical practice and in other contracts we make, why does that philosophy seem to vanish when it comes to applicants having more complete information about employing institutions? We go over risks, benefits, and alternatives with our patients for any irreversible procedures. Why are applicants potentially obliged to make life-altering decisions based only on discussion of benefits without discussion of risks? Rank lists result in binding contracts that may jeopardize our futures for a significant amount of time or even irreversibly if the prospective resident opts to back out or drop out. To be clear, I am asking as a serious question, not rhetorical.

A department within a certain institution I shall decline to name had a significant number of residents drop out this year. That should be alarming to any relevant regulatory body and be taken very seriously by our community at large. When we allow malignant people to teach, administrate, or practice without any meaningful accountability for their actions and corrective actions, these individuals harm our collective professional reputation. And "it was worse back in my day" is neither a legal defense nor is it an adequately ethical or professional response. Would any of us speak so dismissively before a court of law if we were being sued? "Well, the patient didn't die, they're still right here!" I think most if not all of us are smart enough to not convey a flippant, dismissive, or contemptuous attitude in public. We know it would look bad in front of a jury. Yet in seemingly semi-private interactions, some folks get too disinhibited too easily.

I can empathize with having a visceral reaction at "name and shame" but honestly, who is going to report legitimate grievances if quality evidence is difficult to obtain, we fear retribution, and potentially risk our eligibility for board exams and certificates if the program is not accredited? Given the precarious nature of our position, who would carelessly and knowingly post lies about another individual, program, department, or institution? Why should the responsibility for residency improvements fall on residents or "resident leadership"? Where is the accountability? I agree with being careful to not become what we loathe, but that same energy needs to be kept in regard to faculty and attendings rather than giving them a free pass because they're "hard to replace". Hurt people hurt people. I try to remember that when having unpleasant interactions with others but some folks make it challenging for me to maintain my empathy and patience.

Also worth considering is that we as individual doctors are publicly listed if we get Enforcement Actions and you need to know what you're looking for to find it. It doesn't pop up as a top Google result by default. It seems that only the truly egregious cases become public by way of news outlets. Two emergency medicine attending cases and one family medicine in NYC between 2000 and 2017 quickly come to mind. Is there a good reason as to why applicants shouldn't know about prospective employers and work environments? In the armed forces, many bases maintain an"Off-limits list" of establishments and slumlords that soldiers are explicitly instructed to not do business with as a means of protecting soldiers from being taken advantage of. Part of protecting the future and image of our profession should include protecting our own against exploitation and abuse rather than accepting it as the cost of doing business.

We are smart people. Aside from the rare exceptions, I don't think any of us entered this profession intending to be malicious, malignant, incompetent, or intentionally unkind to others. We hoist ourselves by our own petards when we protect and enable abusers rather than hold each other accountable. Lastly, I would like to gently remind everyone that in the age of smart phones, video social media, and cancel culture, we should all be a lot more careful about all of our interactions. We can't and don't know who could be recording us at any given moment.
 
Lizlemongrab, when I read this long, long post (the longest I have ever read here at SDN), because I am a loving father with many kids (some who are the age of current residents), I can only think that you have some personal experience with emotional abuse.

I am sorry if that happened to you, and if that is the case, I hope you can adjust to it.

It is also traumatic to witness it happen to other people. And when you are in your 20s or 30s, it can be difficult to know how to respond, particularly if the offensive people sign your paycheck.

It happens to a lot of people. It is not fun. There are a lot of us who have witnessed this, and I can tell you about incidences in which it happened to me. Now that I am in a position of influence, my colleagues and I are doing what we can to change it. Going forward, you can exemplify such leadership.

But that is not what I posted about. I am sorry you did not read my next two posts beyond the one you cited before posting this. In those, I said that I thought that this was a thread about something different than "malignant" residency cultures. I thought it was about "naming and shaming" residency program directors who break the rules by telling candidates their match preferences. I atoned to that. You must have missed that.

I am still very disappointed with Dr. Schmoob and his/her continued lack of display of leadership in this thread, particularly since he/she is apparently an Administrator at this website, and particularly since he/she apparently has a Navy background. I would expect him/her to know that he/she is not doing you any favors by “liking” or virtue-signalling about your post without explaining it. You deserve better.

Clearly, I stand by everything that I say here.

You and I agree completely in your last two sentences.

Private-message me if you would like to say anything else personally. I would keep anything that is sent in private messages in confidence.
 
schmoob said:
@OMSDoc has been kicked out of this thread for his derailing comments. Please do not post anything for him here because he will be unable to reply.

Now let’s please get back on topic.
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So everyone is allowed to say whatever they want in this thread except for him for trying to protect people from getting themself in trouble. You advocated for freedom of speech in this thread, yet kick some one out. Oh the irony.
 
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I do not care that he called me out multiple times, I am not thin-skinned. Yes, I threw a little jab as well. But I asked multiple times to remain on topic.

The issue was he was repeatedly trying to stifle and derail the point of the discussion. The last straw was when he called out another member for the length of their post, which was apparently not acceptable to him, followed by publicly claiming they were likely emotionally abused. This is absolutely not acceptable.

He was given no formal warning and not placed in a probationary status, he was simply removed from this conversation.

This is the last time that I am respectfully requesting that we get back on topic of the conversation. If the conversation cannot remain on topic, then I will close and lock the thread.
 
OMSDoc said:
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
Click to expand...
OMSDoc said:
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
Click to expand...
 
OMSDoc said:
Well I am a little older, so I think that people who break the rules will eventually get what is coming to them. I do not feel the need to verbalize it or even write it down.

My mom always told me “Never write anything down that you do not want your worst enemy to read.”

Remember that anyone can sue you for defamation.

If I was a trial lawyer, I would be lubricating my joints in anticipation of this potential windfall for the legal profession from Millenials who think that they can say anything, anytime, anywhere.
Click to expand...
LOL WTH. Im exercising my right to freedom of speech. Medical residencies do program name and shame and it prevents good candidates from applying to toxic programs.
 
Please start. I want to see where this goes. As a PD and Chairman I would like to see what people with minimal inside knowledge do with this thread. I am curious as to what is defined as "malignant". I have seen my share of programs as a CODA site visitor and I think I have a good head on my shoulders. Let's start with this: What is malignant? please define this for me. As for OMSdoc, I don't know them personally but have had offline conversations and they are an OMS with years of experience and knowledge. Do not dismiss advice from those older, they usually are speaking from experience.....

BTW: My name is Robert Nadeau, I am the Chairman and PD for the U of Minnesota OMS training program. Please start with me, I like a good roast.
No secrecy here.
 
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Im not sure about medical residencies but this is a relatively small field and in my limited experience we already have enough "battles" to fight as a specialty starting to throw unsubstantiated rumors on here is going to do a lot more harm than the small chance of "saving" someone from applying to a residency they may not be the best fit in.

If you want to learn about a program go extern there, and talk to the residents, that's where you will get a real idea of what its like and most residents will be open to discuss what they like or don't like about there program and other programs they chose not to apply to. The same goes for the interview trail, a lot of the residents you will meet have no say in who gets in or not and it's fine to ask them honest questions without worrying if it will affect your ranking and they will be glad to just talk, I know I do.

My experience also tells me that the residents in the program are largely what decides how happy you may or not be rather than the program itself as long as you have an idea on things like location and 4 vs 6 etc. Which is another reason why the externships and interviews are important because a lot of your life will be dictated on the people you are interviewing with, the people who will be your chiefs and seniors as well.
 
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nade0016 said:
Please start. I want to see where this goes. As a PD and Chairman I would like to see what people with minimal inside knowledge do with this thread. I am curious as to what is defined as "malignant". I have seen my share of programs as a CODA site visitor and I think I have a good head on my shoulders. Let's start with this: What is malignant? please define this for me. As for OMSdoc, I don't know them personally but have had offline conversations and they are an OMS with years of experience and knowledge. Do not dismiss advice from those older, they usually are speaking from experience.....

BTW: My name is Robert Nadeau, I am the Chairman and PD for the U of Minnesota OMS training program. Please start with me, I like a good roast.
No secrecy here.
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no secrecy here eh? hiding your real titles...
1659640814718.png
 
No wonder people are afraid to speak up!

Although not your intention (I hope), your request for this “malignant” information seems as though it’s more of a challenge instead of being open to constructive feedback. We are all intelligent people here. If someone posts something ridiculous or blatantly untrue the court of public opinion will likely be unkind. If someone is making an honest mistake a colleague can politely help them.
 
nade0016 said:
I still want to hear what candidates or residents define as toxic/malignant. I think some of that is very subjective but obviously some things are not. Lets here it SDN community.
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Although I do not experience this at my current program (and almost all of my OMFS resident friends don't either), I would define a toxic/malignant culture as attendings/senior residents who regularly take advantage of the natural hierarchy of a multilevel training program outside of an educational context. This repeated habit then creates resentment amongst the residents rather than creating a unified team.
 
nade0016 said:
I still want to hear what candidates or residents define as toxic/malignant. I think some of that is very subjective but obviously some things are not. Lets here it SDN community.
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I knew of an attending that many would consider “malignant “

This person belittled residents to their face and used offensive language toward the residents. this person would also routinely threaten to fire/terminate residents that made mistakes. Working with this person gave residents a sense of “our presence is an inconvenience and annoyance” as opposed to “this attending wants us here because they enjoy teaching”.

I don’t know much about your residency program but hopefully for the residents sake this type individual does not exist at your residency.

I’m sure there are many forms of being “malignant” but this is the best I can come up with.
 
OMFSLife123 said:
I would define a toxic/malignant culture as attendings/senior residents who regularly take advantage of the natural hierarchy of a multilevel training program outside of an educational context.
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I think this is best measured by the proportion of residents at a given program that have irritable bowel syndrome from all the stress. So, for all you dental students doing externships and visiting programs, it probably couldn’t hurt to ask the current residents about their bowel movements.

3F1B5BE4-A125-461C-81A8-16246FA015A0.gif


Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
I think this is best measured by the proportion of residents at a given program that have irritable bowel syndrome from all the stress. So, for all you dental students doing externships and visiting programs, it probably couldn’t hurt to ask the current residents about their bowel movements.

View attachment 358052

Big Hoss
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BTH, why don’t you kick us off? I know your training wasn’t OS but it was still training. You had co-residents, attendings, PD’s, etc. Tell us a little about your time.
 
schmoob said:
BTH, why don’t you kick us off? I know your training wasn’t OS but it was still training. You had co-residents, attendings, PD’s, etc. Tell us a little about your time.
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I went to a combined university/hospital program. At the beginning of my residency, there were a few of the hospital attendings that intimidated the crap out of me. So, I made sure to hold myself to a very high standard. Within time I felt I had earned their confidence and respect. They actually became some of my favorite attendings to work with. Overall though, I enjoyed my residency as much as one can, but I definitely put in some work.

The worst part of my residency was when Covid shut down all the dental offices for a few months. Literally every pediatric dental emergency in half the state was coming into the hospital. It was a dark time I’d like to forget...definitely a lot of IBS flare ups then.

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
The worst part of my residency was when Covid shut down all the dental offices for a few months. Literally every pediatric dental emergency in half the state was coming into the hospital. It was a dark time I’d like to forget...definitely a lot of IBS flare ups then.

Big Hoss
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I nothing to offer for this thread but...
Big Hoss's comment just gave me a bad flash back.
 
OMFSLife123 said:
Although I do not experience this at my current program (and almost all of my OMFS resident friends don't either), I would define a toxic/malignant culture as attendings/senior residents who regularly take advantage of the natural hierarchy of a multilevel training program outside of an educational context. This repeated habit then creates resentment amongst the residents rather than creating a unified team.
Click to expand...
Interesting, I see where you are coming from, what kind of specific examples can you tell us about?
 
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