I'm a 3rd year (female) medical student on my OB/GYN rotation and I am actually considering an OB/GYN residency despite the late timing. I wish I could have rotated in this field earlier in the year, but it just didn't work out that way. I have enjoyed the patients, the deliveries, the OR, etc. However, I am really concerned about whether or not I would fit into the field personality-wise. The program at my school is dominated by females (resident-wise)...and I'm sure that is the case for programs across the U.S. The lack of testosterone in the program at my school is evident as I have witnessed so many cases of catty, back-stabbing, two-faced behavior by many of the women in the program. Gossip is rampant, and most of the women can't seem to separate the personal from the professional. It is seriously so bad that I just don't think I could stand 4 years with people like that despite liking the work...words can't convey the awful personalities/attitudes that some of these women have. It's worse than any other rotation I have been through. Surely there are programs out there that aren't like this. It's an entirely different cup of tea when you get 20 strong females together, and I don't expect to get along perfectly with everyone everywhere I go. I just want to find out if there are programs out there that I would fit into better....relative peace of mind knowing that if I choose this field I won't be miserable throughout training due to major personality conflict. Any help is appreciated.
program personalities
- Thread starter Amli04
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I'm starting my residency in a couple weeks were the mix is 50/50. I interviewed at approx. 15 programs. Some had a mix, others were female dominated. Just apply to programs with the following algorithm and save yourself money and pain:
a. Geography- single most important factor, hands down. If you are from the city then you need to have some stimulation in your off time. If you are from podunk U.S.A. then being in the city should be exciting. Trust me, I'm from a big city and spent 3 months during electives in semi-rurals areas and I was pulling my hair.
b. University vs. Community affiliated- a.k.a. "Name recognition" Some peeps want to go to Harvard...God bless them....others want to be treated respectfully and treat others as such. Also, learn from attendings and not mostly from 3rd and 4th year residents who haven't been taught from attendings since 1st year. Remember, community programs tend to be (and this is a generalization) a bit more structured when it comes to learning curriculum than university programs b/c it doesn't have the difficult management issues. Also, consider fellows that walk the halls. They will detract from your learning experience...hands down. Community programs tend to be financially solvent and give better benefits and higher pay.👍
c. Education- I found that education and the following point, personalities (faculty, residents, program secretary) to be the dealbreakers or makers. Hey, you are going to residency for one reason alone: EDUCATION. Of course, taking care of patients and all that other good stuff...but you need to learn your craft. Pick a program that you can be reasonably assured that education occurs...trust me they will all do the rain dance when interview season comes around...try to see throught it.
d. Personalities-It's funny, but I ended up changing places on my ROL due to personalities b/c the programs were similar in geo, pay, educ, etc. But I found either the residents, faculty, or ancillary staff to be a turn off. I don't know if you have ever read the book "Blink" but trust your gut instinct....if you think it's a phony then it is!! But this is a very important point, under the right people I could work 120 hours...under the wrong people...well, you are "stuck like Chuck."
Final thought: I thought I knew a lot after 3rd year. Well, 4th year was a rude awakening. And I've heard internship is even worse. So, researching residency, getting into a program you like, and starting it is a difficult period b/c guidance is minimal and you are learning as you go along. I felt that 4th year was very stressful b/c you are trying to make very important decisions- Is this the right specialty? Do I like the people? Do I like the location? But perseverance is key!
a. Geography- single most important factor, hands down. If you are from the city then you need to have some stimulation in your off time. If you are from podunk U.S.A. then being in the city should be exciting. Trust me, I'm from a big city and spent 3 months during electives in semi-rurals areas and I was pulling my hair.
b. University vs. Community affiliated- a.k.a. "Name recognition" Some peeps want to go to Harvard...God bless them....others want to be treated respectfully and treat others as such. Also, learn from attendings and not mostly from 3rd and 4th year residents who haven't been taught from attendings since 1st year. Remember, community programs tend to be (and this is a generalization) a bit more structured when it comes to learning curriculum than university programs b/c it doesn't have the difficult management issues. Also, consider fellows that walk the halls. They will detract from your learning experience...hands down. Community programs tend to be financially solvent and give better benefits and higher pay.👍
c. Education- I found that education and the following point, personalities (faculty, residents, program secretary) to be the dealbreakers or makers. Hey, you are going to residency for one reason alone: EDUCATION. Of course, taking care of patients and all that other good stuff...but you need to learn your craft. Pick a program that you can be reasonably assured that education occurs...trust me they will all do the rain dance when interview season comes around...try to see throught it.
d. Personalities-It's funny, but I ended up changing places on my ROL due to personalities b/c the programs were similar in geo, pay, educ, etc. But I found either the residents, faculty, or ancillary staff to be a turn off. I don't know if you have ever read the book "Blink" but trust your gut instinct....if you think it's a phony then it is!! But this is a very important point, under the right people I could work 120 hours...under the wrong people...well, you are "stuck like Chuck."
Final thought: I thought I knew a lot after 3rd year. Well, 4th year was a rude awakening. And I've heard internship is even worse. So, researching residency, getting into a program you like, and starting it is a difficult period b/c guidance is minimal and you are learning as you go along. I felt that 4th year was very stressful b/c you are trying to make very important decisions- Is this the right specialty? Do I like the people? Do I like the location? But perseverance is key!
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I am a male 3rd year medical student. I am also in a similar position where I recently had my 3rd year OB/Gyn rotation and, surprising to me, I loved it. I have gotten so much advice from others warning me about the negative environment you describe. I also had some negative experiences with some of the residents. However, I also had the fortune of working with some women who were true examples of intelligence and compassion. I remain optimistic that by doing some away rotations I will be able to identify the programs that select for the people that truly wish to serve their patients and for whom that is the highest priority. As long as everyone focuses there, the other stuff will fall into place. After all, in the end, most of our time in this profession will be with our patients.
I tend not to post too much but I just wanted to let you know that there are others among your peers who are going into the field with a similar view on what is important in working with others and what it means to be a professional.
I tend not to post too much but I just wanted to let you know that there are others among your peers who are going into the field with a similar view on what is important in working with others and what it means to be a professional.
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I specifically looked for a program where the residents got along with each other and with the faculty when I matched because I did my rotation in a place where the residents HATED each other and would scream at each other in front of the students. Pretty much where ever you go, you'll get the education you need to be a good ob/gyn. I wanted to go to a place where I'd be supported in those four years.
I'm in a program where we really do get along. We hang out with each other when not at work, we hang out after work at the hospital to catch up with each other. Yes, we have our fights (every family does) but I trust every single one of my colleagues with my life. I wouldn't have made it through these last two years without them.
I'm in a program where we really do get along. We hang out with each other when not at work, we hang out after work at the hospital to catch up with each other. Yes, we have our fights (every family does) but I trust every single one of my colleagues with my life. I wouldn't have made it through these last two years without them.
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I'm sorry, but I am absolutely sick and tired of people making the comment that because a program is malignant AND has a high percentage of women, it must be due to that damned X chromosome. It truly is offensive. Even the language is sexist...I've never heard men that discuss others in a program described as "catty." Did it ever occur to you that your program perhaps just got sh*tty residents, regardless of whether they are female or male? Jeez. The residents at my home institution were 90% female, and they were great. I've had overwhelmingly positive experiences throughout my life in groups that were all female, all male or a mix thereof. Yes, there are bad mixes, and yes there can be negative interactions. But until you can provide me with a peer reviewed clinical trial that shows women to be poorer teammates, I would appreciate it if people in AT LEAST the ob/gyn forum could refrain from ascribing negative characteristics to all groups of women.
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Furthermore, I'd like to add that after going back and re-reading the orginial post, I find it especially sad that a FEMALE medical student has bought into the same load of crap, albeit a newer version, that rationalized women being kept out of medicine in the first place.
Sorry for the anger, but I am truly at my wit's end with this nonsense.
Sorry for the anger, but I am truly at my wit's end with this nonsense.
In response to Superspec:
1. My sole intent was to learn the opinions and experiences that others have had, not to offend, or please for that matter, anyone. If anyone takes a offense to what I have reported, please feel free to move on to another thread and ignore mine. I agree that my experience has been disheartening, but that is no reason not to talk about it.
2. Catty is defined as malicious and spiteful. I would ascribe this term to any person....male of female....demonstrating this type of behavior. It doesn't take a peer reviewed clinical trial to demonstrate that catty behavior is unacceptable and that it negatively affects a group's dynamic and ability to work as a cohesive team. I am not even generalizing and saying that all women are this way. The only comment I made regarding working with predominantly women is that it is a "different cup of tea"...meaning my experience has been different compared to working with a mix of men and women. The fact that there is more catty behavior in the current group is due to many factors, one of which could possibly be the dynamic created by having a predominantly female population. But that doesn't mean I think women are poor teammates at all. Long story short....catty is a vocabulary word, not a movement in history to hold women down.
3. It is selfish to demand or expect others to stifle their conversation to please your palate. I am searching for information from others who have had similar experiences. Superspec is certainly entitled to his/her opinion. However, I will not compromise my ability to learn from others to keep anyone from getting hot and bothered.....especially over a simple discussion of a single personal experience. I can't expect to please everyone, especially those with a short fuse who are intolerant of other people's opinions.
4. I am not "buying into" anything. If I believed all programs are the way my home program is, I would have eliminated OB/GYN from my career options. I am genuinely interested in the field and would simply like information from those currently going through programs or have been in my shoes in the past. I am obviously going through the trouble to research the issue rather than basing my entire opinion on my personal experience so far.
5. On a more positive note, I am glad to know that superspec's home program comprised mostly of females provided a positive experience. That is encouraging and constructive information to know. I am thankful for the information that everyone has been gracious enough to provide.
1. My sole intent was to learn the opinions and experiences that others have had, not to offend, or please for that matter, anyone. If anyone takes a offense to what I have reported, please feel free to move on to another thread and ignore mine. I agree that my experience has been disheartening, but that is no reason not to talk about it.
2. Catty is defined as malicious and spiteful. I would ascribe this term to any person....male of female....demonstrating this type of behavior. It doesn't take a peer reviewed clinical trial to demonstrate that catty behavior is unacceptable and that it negatively affects a group's dynamic and ability to work as a cohesive team. I am not even generalizing and saying that all women are this way. The only comment I made regarding working with predominantly women is that it is a "different cup of tea"...meaning my experience has been different compared to working with a mix of men and women. The fact that there is more catty behavior in the current group is due to many factors, one of which could possibly be the dynamic created by having a predominantly female population. But that doesn't mean I think women are poor teammates at all. Long story short....catty is a vocabulary word, not a movement in history to hold women down.
3. It is selfish to demand or expect others to stifle their conversation to please your palate. I am searching for information from others who have had similar experiences. Superspec is certainly entitled to his/her opinion. However, I will not compromise my ability to learn from others to keep anyone from getting hot and bothered.....especially over a simple discussion of a single personal experience. I can't expect to please everyone, especially those with a short fuse who are intolerant of other people's opinions.
4. I am not "buying into" anything. If I believed all programs are the way my home program is, I would have eliminated OB/GYN from my career options. I am genuinely interested in the field and would simply like information from those currently going through programs or have been in my shoes in the past. I am obviously going through the trouble to research the issue rather than basing my entire opinion on my personal experience so far.
5. On a more positive note, I am glad to know that superspec's home program comprised mostly of females provided a positive experience. That is encouraging and constructive information to know. I am thankful for the information that everyone has been gracious enough to provide.
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Seriously? Seriously? I thought it was pretty common knowledge that if you put a bunch of women with strong personalities together for an extended period of time then you are bound to have some "issues." No need to bite off that student's head. Actually, women residents at my school say that they value the one male per class, because they serve as a buffer for all the women. Did you have a bad day, or are you really that angry of a person? Where are you working so that I can be sure to avoid that program?
Great...BWH-MGH huh?.... of course it would be a program I'm interested in...
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In response to your following points:
Paragraph 1: This is a DISCUSSION forum. If people share a different view than you do, are offended, etc, then it is absolutely appropriate to post a response on this thread. If everyone who had a different opinion had to start their own thread, SDN would cease to be useful. I agree that your experience should be talked about. It stinks that your ob/gyn rotation sucked. What I objected to was the way in which you automatically attributed it to the fact that your residents were women, as opposed to the fact that they obviously just generally suck.
Pararaph 2: Yes, I am aware that catty is a vocabulary word. And I am aware that it has a general meaning. However, unless you are totally bent on winning some sort of argument, you must admit that generally the word catty is a derogatory term that is only used with women. I truly can't remember a single time I have heard a male described that way. Yes, I'm sure it has happened. And in response to your last statement, though no ***** would confuse the word catty as synonymous with pervasive attempts "to hold women down"; it is undeniable that such attempts are a large part of our not so distant history. Because I know that, and a lot of other really sh*tty stuff that occured in American and world history, anytime I hear a word used that traditionally is ascribed to only ONE segment of the population I get concerned. After all, it is unsubstantiated one word descriptors that have justified a variety of different groups from not getting fair treatment. If you go back to the dictionary I'm sure you could find a few others that illustrated what I'm talking about.
3. No one asked you to hold back your opinion. No need to get self righteous. You should just be prepared to defend it or further explain what you meant. You also don't have to respond....its your prerogative. And because I responded passionately, I don't think that implies I have a short fuse. I means that just like you, I too have strong opinions. If you can't deal with other peoples opinions, a discussion forum is probably not the place to air your concerns. And if you were truly worried that malignancy is just inherent to ob/gyn, you should have said, "Hey guys, I"m really worried that everyone in ob/gyn is miserable. All the people in my home program suck and hate each other and made me want to die." Instead, you implied that they suck BECAUSE THEY ARE A LARGE GROUP OF WOMEN. Sub the word women with the word black, or jew, and see if you get what I'm saying then.
4. I'm glad it made you feel better that I had a good experience. I did. Hopefully my residency will be cool too, and it is also a largely female group. On the interview trail, as many of my other buddies on this forum will tell you, you will find tons of cool programs that seem to be very supportive. Sounds like you just got the short end of the stick. I would consider doing an away rotation if I was you. You could start a thread and ask people to recommend programs that they thought were awesome in whatever geography you are interested in, and then go from there. Good luck- match is really stressful but when it is over you will feel like a million bucks. Take care.
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Dear DeaconMD04:
Please see my above response. Your comment that "I thought it was common knowledge that if you put a bunch of women with strong personalities together for an extended period of time then you are bound to have some issues" is pretty much the most sexist comment that I have heard in years. As i said, sub out women with blacks, jews, muslims, etc, and maybe you can figure out what all the fuss is about.
ps. In the future, I would take that little piece of advice from obgynrntomd. I met her on the interview trail and she's a pretty hip lady.
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THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!!
I am so sick of it being acceptable to bash the women in OB/GYN. I think it comes from the fact that it tends to be more assertive women who go into the field and in our society assertiveness immediatly correlates with bi*ch. (Just look at Hillary Clinton...whatever your feelings may be of her politics, a man with her same mannerisms who never get labled in the way she does). They were debating the same issue in the surgery forum and the women were getting the same sort of crap. And that is all it is: CRAP!
Strong personalities tend to go into surgical fields. Inevitabily, strong personalities will hurt a timid medical student's feelings sometimes and will likely clash with each other at times. This is not something associated with being female and, I totally agree that "catty" is 99% of the time used by students, male physicians, nurses, and support staff as a means to demean FEMALE physicians.
At my graduation ceremonies, both the senior awards breakfast and our freakin entire graduation speach were filled with digs at OB/GYN. Now, there are pleanty of demanding rotations that are less than pleasant for the average medical student, however OB/GYN is the only one that is so acceptable to constantly dish. Could it be that it is a field dominated by women that cares for women? Could it be, could it be?
Sexism ain't so long dead as everyone would want to believe.
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[QUOTE/]THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!!
I am so sick of it being acceptable to bash the women in OB/GYN.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't going to reply but.....yeah, I pretty much agree.
It's sad to see on our own forum that the stereotype gets played into, and I absolutely get bothered when other specialties make fun of us. However, if we don't stop using words like "catty" (c'mon, we all know it's used on women only 99.9% of the time) and "it must be because there's 10 menstruating women in a room that the program sucks..." why do we expect other people to?
To the OP, it certainly sounds like your rotation sucked and I'm sorry. But malignancy in a program breeds malignancy, whether they are men, women, or alien (I'm sure there are such! ha). So when you do look at programs, don't "count out" all female ones or even have a semi-negative feeling towards them - it's waaay more than gender. Mine is heavy on the chicas and they seem great (have yet to start, but interviewing/second look was so much fun). Good luck in your search!
I am so sick of it being acceptable to bash the women in OB/GYN.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't going to reply but.....yeah, I pretty much agree.
It's sad to see on our own forum that the stereotype gets played into, and I absolutely get bothered when other specialties make fun of us. However, if we don't stop using words like "catty" (c'mon, we all know it's used on women only 99.9% of the time) and "it must be because there's 10 menstruating women in a room that the program sucks..." why do we expect other people to?
To the OP, it certainly sounds like your rotation sucked and I'm sorry. But malignancy in a program breeds malignancy, whether they are men, women, or alien (I'm sure there are such! ha). So when you do look at programs, don't "count out" all female ones or even have a semi-negative feeling towards them - it's waaay more than gender. Mine is heavy on the chicas and they seem great (have yet to start, but interviewing/second look was so much fun). Good luck in your search!
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I can say that I'm starting @ UCLA in 1 week
. The program is all women and so far they have been the coolest people I've ever known. That is one of the major reasons why I ranked them #1; because of the residents. When working 80 hour weeks, you better believe you want to get along with the people. So, my tidbit is how are the people, not who comprises the people.
I also must agree I am sick and tired of ppl beating up on the field of OB. I LOVE this field!!! It is rewarding and when you take pleasure in it, its not a job its your life. I just received my call schedule and I must tell you its better than some of my friends who went into IM and psych.
(i never spell check so apologies now)
Oh and thanks for the compliment superspec, you're pretty kool too!
. The program is all women and so far they have been the coolest people I've ever known. That is one of the major reasons why I ranked them #1; because of the residents. When working 80 hour weeks, you better believe you want to get along with the people. So, my tidbit is how are the people, not who comprises the people. I also must agree I am sick and tired of ppl beating up on the field of OB. I LOVE this field!!! It is rewarding and when you take pleasure in it, its not a job its your life. I just received my call schedule and I must tell you its better than some of my friends who went into IM and psych.
(i never spell check so apologies now)
Oh and thanks for the compliment superspec, you're pretty kool too!
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I have to say I have to agree with everyone and that it is very program dependent and NOT dependent on whether the program of predominantly female. In fact, one of the worst programs I interviewed at was one that had a good mix of males and females; the two residents who gave us tours (one male, one female) were fighting the entire time and being quite "catty" if you ask me. Many programs that are bad out there are bad not because there are a bunch of "female residents" but because of much deeper underlying issues and they select residents with certain personality types that just perpetuates the cycle...
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OP, I am sorry you had a bad experience on your rotation, and I'm glad you are willing to go past that and look for an environment that will provide a positive and supportive experience for your residency. There are plenty of options; I think the detailed advice above is very good. Stick with what attracts you to the specialty, and follow your gut while gathering lots of info. Also, be aware that every program changes year to year as the house staff change; the current R1, R2 will be most important to your future happiness, so try to find people who are happy and well adjusted.
I also really don't think the XX factor is to blame for unhappy residents. The most unhappy, bitter, mean residents I worked with all year were male. My medicine rotation now is 95% female housestaff, students and attendings, and we work very very well together. Psych and Peds are predominantly female, and we never seem to hear about how badly women work together in that field.
Ob does get unjustly bashed, in my opinion. I've run into mean, disrespectful, rude, and backstabbing people on medicine, psych, surgery, and even peds, which has this reputation as the land where everyone is Very Very Nice all the time. Ob is a surgical specialty, and the point above about strong personalities is absolutely true; many male surgeons are even bigger a*holes, but somehow it's more socially acceptable because they are men.
I also really don't think the XX factor is to blame for unhappy residents. The most unhappy, bitter, mean residents I worked with all year were male. My medicine rotation now is 95% female housestaff, students and attendings, and we work very very well together. Psych and Peds are predominantly female, and we never seem to hear about how badly women work together in that field.
Ob does get unjustly bashed, in my opinion. I've run into mean, disrespectful, rude, and backstabbing people on medicine, psych, surgery, and even peds, which has this reputation as the land where everyone is Very Very Nice all the time. Ob is a surgical specialty, and the point above about strong personalities is absolutely true; many male surgeons are even bigger a*holes, but somehow it's more socially acceptable because they are men.
