Program "Ranking" frustation

[surgeon2b forev]

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So here's my irritation with deciding which programs to apply to. In short, I have acquired a small group of attending surgeons who know me pretty well as a result of me showing my face, doing research, and being interested in surgery for a long time. Now that I am applying, it's SO CRAZY to hear the thoughts of places that different attendings tell me.

"Penn is an over-rated program which you shouldn't even waste your time with since they make you do a secondary" is what my program director tells me

then my chairman says "Decent program, you should look into it"

and then my mentor (surgeon) says "it's a fabulous program!"

honestly. and, the story HONESTLY goes visa versa for SO MANY examples. I've heard the WORSTE and the BEST things from attendings about BID, Brigham, MGH, Columbia, Yale, Standford, UCLA. It's honestly ridiculous.

The REASON it's stressful is because while I KNOW i'm just gonna end up applying to them all, it's weird 'cuz some of these attendings seem frustated that I don't heed their advice. NO JOKE. "WHY are you applying to Penn? I told you it's worthless... you should come here instead." And i'm like thinking to myself "hold on buddy, let me make my own decision."

It's obvious that attendings, program directors, and chairman form their thoughts/preferences about programs based upon their idiosyncratic bias and experiences. AND IT SUCKS, because, HONESTLY I WENT ONE DAY FROM MY PROGRAM DIRECTOR TO MY CHAIRMAN (the day i went to get my letters of rec) and they told me COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! If your chair is a CT surgeon or an endocrine surgeon, OBVIOUSLY they're probably friends with chairs who are in the same field, and THEREFORE automatically think that ENTIRE program must be good. I think that's the trend... and it's RIDICULOUS.

Now, I know NOTHING about Penn. Never been there. but I *DOUBT* they suck. I *DOUBT* i'll have a horrible experience at my interview. Sure, it may not (but it may be!) be my first choice.... but some of this advice just seems ridiculous. NOT TO MENTION THE UN-NAMED INSTITUTION THAT I'M AT ISN'T THAT HOT, but they tend to think we're like the best. so....

just venting

thoughts?


ahhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[jubb]

I'm taking the interview at as many programs as possible approach. Applications really aren't that expensive and a lot of the programs I applied to are within driving distance. You may as well apply to them all and then once you get out on the interview trail you can ask other applicants about them, if you end up hearing bad stuff you can cancel the interview. I'd probably trust more what residents say than attendings. They may have a friend who is there, they may have interviewed there or heard about it from people who interviewed there. I also searched these forums, looked at people's rank order list from the past few years, looked at what programs people interviewed at in the last couple of years. Despite all that I still have no idea if the programs I applied to are what I'm really looking for so you can take my advice for what it's worth.

 

[JunkintheTrunk]

Same here....i'm taking everything everyone tells me with a grain of salt. I know my personality and outlook is different than many surgeons that i've met. I've applied to 33 d.o. and m.d. surgery programs in michigan and illinois, not knowing too much about any specific program. Even programs that i've heard he worst things about i plan on giving a full chance to "woo" me. 🙂 It's probably hard though to determine all you can about a program at an interview, since everyone puts on a happy face and touts their program as the best there is. One big thing i will be looking for is: can i get along with these people for the next 5 years? Do they have the same attitudes that i do? Amongst tons of other things of course. Hopefully you've gotten a chance to do a rotation at a place you think you might rank highly, since i think, that's the best way to see how a resident's life at that place is, and what kind of surgeons they are at the end of their training. GOOD LUCK!!!👍 😉

 

[DrDawg]

Certainly take what everone says with a grain of salt. Have you read the thread on the "top 20" programs? Everyone thinks something diferent. Remember that a big name doesn't always mean the surgical program is a powerhouse. That program could have a big name because of research or other residency programs. Listen to your chair/program director they've be at this longer than most. They know who the key people in surgery are, who is easy to work with, and who is an arse. Although its great to find people you can get along with for 5-7, ultimately your doing life, so being at a program where the chair, pd, or department heads have clout helps as well

 

[Blade28]

Very true.

The unofficial "ranking" of programs depends on many things:

*National prominence of General Surgery program
*Fame of Program Director and Chairman
*Prominence of well-known professors in the department
*Whether the program is a research powerhouse
*Ability for its graduates to attain competitive fellowships
*Regional recognition

Etc.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Its an extremely difficult situation...imagine the same scenario for the IMG without local faculty to tell him what programs are worthwhile!

At any rate, people can have very different experiences at the same place, and the same time. Just two days ago I was speaking with a former co-resident and he and I agreed about many of the unpleasant experiences we had as residents. But we have colleagues who loved it so much (or at least liked it more) that they went back after fellowship to join the faculty. My friend and I were very confused about how people could have so many different experiences at the same place, with the same people, at the same time.

I guess sometimes the evil you know is better than one you don't.

Point is, that your professors may have had the same or different experiences or different interpretations of those experiences; its human nature.

As Blade points out, rankings of programs are based on many factors, some of which may be important to you and others which are not. Fellowship placement was important to me as was geography and despite my complaints, it got me where I wanted to go (albeit with a few scars 😉 ).

You may prefer a larger or smaller program, one with required lab time, large city vs suburb, no women (that's for Misterioso), etc. Its very hard to tell how happy you will be at a program, but even with the high attrition rate of surgery, most people who leave do not leave a certain program but leave surgery altogether (athough you could make the argument that they left because the program killed all interest they had).

Don't worry about the faculty arguing what's best...all you have to say is that you've gotten conflicting information and decided to try and figure it out for yourself.