Programs in Chicago?

[medgator]

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I was searching through old threads on SDN and really couldn't find a lot of stuff on the rad onc programs in Chicago. Any experiences or knowledge on the programs (U Chicago, Loyola, Rush specifically) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Adawaal]

I was searching through old threads on SDN and really couldn't find a lot of stuff on the rad onc programs in Chicago. Any experiences or knowledge on the programs (U Chicago, Loyola, Rush specifically) would be greatly appreciated.

Well, I graduated from (and rotated at) Rush, also rotated at Northwestern. And I know some folks from Loyola and the UofC/UIC programs. I guess which program would be the best fit depends a lot on whether you see yourself as more an academic/researcher or a pure clinician. I'd put UofC and Northwestern in the first group, Rush and Loyola in the second. Personally, I see them like:

1) Northwestern: Kind of insular, but good stuff going on. Bill Small in particular is awesome and could easily be at a "name" place. Getting much stronger in research. Very benign environment in which to train. Great multidisciplinary rounds with excellent med onc and surg onc faculty.

2) UofC/UIC: UofC has a great name and has a history of quality research. Their hospital is kind of a dump though. And the fact that you have several hospitals throughout the metro area to rotate through, this can kind of suck in downtown Chicago. Still, great folks to train with and a "name."

3) Rush: A year ago I would have definitely had my alma mater last. However, it sounds like things are turning around with the new Chair. They're also finally starting to catch up equipment-wise. Not a lot of research, but they are doing some decent brachy stuff.

4) Loyola: By reputation, decent community-oriented program. No real research to speak of, if that's important to you. Big negative -- it's out in the 'burbs, so you either have to live in the 'burbs (Gag!) or commute like a madman.

 

[Thaiger75]

I also rotated through NW. I personally wasn't all that impressed with the program. The teaching there was minimal and the program didn't really have that pro-resident atmosphere, but things may be different now with a new program director.

 

[medgator]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering if any of you knew more specifics about Rush. I've heard the department is undergoing a lot of changes right now?

 

[Ehrman]

I ask only because U of Chicago has a big time national repuation. The chair is probably one of the premier clinician scientists in the world and the vice chair (Dr. Hellman) is the co-editor of THE major general oncology textbook. In addition, the morning report and didactic training are the best that I have seen and the opportunities for research are outstanding. I did not rotate or apply to NW, but if it is as good or better than U of Chicago (???) it must be a pretty amazing place.

Well, I graduated from (and rotated at) Rush, also rotated at Northwestern. And I know some folks from Loyola and the UofC/UIC programs. I guess which program would be the best fit depends a lot on whether you see yourself as more an academic/researcher or a pure clinician. I'd put UofC and Northwestern in the first group, Rush and Loyola in the second. Personally, I see them like:

1) Northwestern: Kind of insular, but good stuff going on. Bill Small in particular is awesome and could easily be at a "name" place. Getting much stronger in research. Very benign environment in which to train. Great multidisciplinary rounds with excellent med onc and surg onc faculty.

2) UofC/UIC: UofC has a great name and has a history of quality research. Their hospital is kind of a dump though. And the fact that you have several hospitals throughout the metro area to rotate through, this can kind of suck in downtown Chicago. Still, great folks to train with and a "name."

3) Rush: A year ago I would have definitely had my alma mater last. However, it sounds like things are turning around with the new Chair. They're also finally starting to catch up equipment-wise. Not a lot of research, but they are doing some decent brachy stuff.

4) Loyola: By reputation, decent community-oriented program. No real research to speak of, if that's important to you. Big negative -- it's out in the 'burbs, so you either have to live in the 'burbs (Gag!) or commute like a madman.

 

[Adawaal]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering if any of you knew more specifics about Rush. I've heard the department is undergoing a lot of changes right now?

Medgator -- Everything is in flux right now at Rush. This could be just devastating or it could be a miracle in progress, most likely somewhere in between. Back in the 1960's, before Rad Onc was even really its own discipline separate from radiology, Rush was pretty big in some of the radiation physics of the day. One of the physicists at Rush now (ready to retire soon I think) was actually a Young Gun there in the early 70's. About a half dozen years or so ago there was a kind of civil war between two factions of the faculty that really decimated the program. Most of the players are gone now. The new Chair came from Steph's old haunts and will certainly be taking the program in his own direction. Early indicators coming from Rush are positive, but who knows what will happen?

Also, Ehrman... You bring up good points. It's all so damn subjective about how you look at programs and what one person sees as awesome another thinks, well.... 😴

I personally think there are a number of programs out there resting on their name and slipping more than a bit. My personal opinion (nobody has to agree) is that U of C falls into this category. If we were talking about Internal Medicine programs in Chicago I'd be calling Northwestern out for the same reason....

 

[RADGUY]

I'd be interested in why Adawaal thinks that U. Chicago has slipped. From what I know (which is limited), it has top notch teaching, good clinical research, outstanding faculty and residents, and top notch basic science research.

I think Loyola is also a great place to train, with a well repsected chairman, and good teaching.

Northwestern is a program that appears to be relying on name. From what I have heard, teaching is poor. I may be wrong (I wish there was a way to look this uo to confirm), but Northwestern may have been on probation a few years back. If anyone knows, please confirm or deny this.

I do not know much about Rush other than it is in a state of flux.

 

[Radonc90]

Adawaal,

Some of the issues you mentioned were not accurate. But here is the brief run down (from a senior RO who is in Chicago for more than 15 years)

1. NW.....always take their own students, not sure what their goals are. Essentially a private practice place, residents graduating from that program have problem getting good academic job.

2. Loyola.....The Chair is good but the Loyola system does not allow the Chair to recruit good faculty (Loyola U. taxes the Chairs heavily to fund the U., so less money available to fire good staff) so they come and go....

3. U of C, the Chair is very well known in gene research, but his focus is not in the clinic. With recent departure of Hallahan, VJ, T Chung and others the dept is actually weakbc of lack of stability. He does not pay the staff too well, so they come and go......and the cycle repeats itself.

4. Rush....complex history... some 10 years ago, the former Chair did ask the private group to leave so he could build his academic group. The private group refused to leave, instead they stayed and caused lots of problems for the dept......no publications, no teaching, no research........just want to bring the paycheck home.........The former Chair did recruit his own people and managed somehow to build the Resid Prog up to a much better level than it ever was. Now, about 2 (????? or more ?????? tz/kg) of the private group are still there, serving the same purposes and the new Chair is of no help. The problem is the academic faculty is slowly leaving....wonder what happens there..................maybe onthe way down.........The DEan is worthless.......

The rumor is that the Chair helps himself.......and a person of ........minutia
Rejected by JH and Dukes for the Chair position.....and so he is at Rush. People are not sure he is happy at rush....maybe steph can elaborate on this........

Overall impression is he is a micromanager but i might be wrong........

There are better prgram to apply for....

Good luck!

 

[gambino]

Would anyone out there know if any of the Chicago programs are on probation ? I had been told by an attending that there is a program on probation, but did not state which one. I suspect it may be Rush or maybe even Northwestern. Any ideas ?

 

[medgator]

According to the ACGME website (www.acgme.org), All 4 Chicago programs have "continued full accreditation"

 

[RushRadResident]

There have been several posts regarding the program at Rush. As current residents in the program, we felt the need to clarify some of the information provided as well as give our honest take on the program for those considering us. We have broken down our reply to a historical perspective as well as the current environment.

Historically: Our program has been long known for its strong clinical and physics programs. It should be known that the first chair at Rush, Frank Hendrickson was president of ASTRO. However, for those interested in research, this was probably not the best place to be because the facilities and support were not up to par with some of the leading research institutions. Despite this, our former chair did hire a full time radiobiologist who has been here for several years.

Current: It is true that there have been quite a few changes in our program recently. The arrival of our new chair has meant departure of some attendings, but one should mention that the remaining physicians have been combined into one group which has improved the environment for residents. Also, the new chair is very involved in teaching the residents and is turning the department in a more academic direction. Current attending faculty have had long tenures at Rush and were trained in premier radiation oncology programs including JCRT, MSKCC, and Mallincrodt. In addition, for those who want to do research, we have a dedicated research/elective year. The two residents on research right now are doing bench work and simultaneous clinical research. Radiation oncology at Rush also allows residents to obtain a Masters in Physics (some work is done during the research year while the rest of the requirements are built into the program that all residents go through). All of our residents (for at least the past 5 years) have had posters or oral presentations at ASTRO or RSNA and have found good jobs in both academia and private practice. In our last 8 graduating residents, 5 have gone into academics. These five sites were Wake Forest, Mayo-Jacksonville, MD Anderson, Rush-Pres, and Kaiser in LA.

 

[qwert]

I recently learned that at least 3 residents left NW program some time ago for various reasons. When I asked the ex-chairman about this, she got really defensive but didn't deny anything.

There have been several posts regarding the program at Rush. As current residents in the program, we felt the need to clarify some of the information provided as well as give our honest take on the program for those considering us. We have broken down our reply to a historical perspective as well as the current environment.

Historically: Our program has been long known for its strong clinical and physics programs. It should be known that the first chair at Rush, Frank Hendrickson was president of ASTRO. However, for those interested in research, this was probably not the best place to be because the facilities and support were not up to par with some of the leading research institutions. Despite this, our former chair did hire a full time radiobiologist who has been here for several years.

Current: It is true that there have been quite a few changes in our program recently. The arrival of our new chair has meant departure of some attendings, but one should mention that the remaining physicians have been combined into one group which has improved the environment for residents. Also, the new chair is very involved in teaching the residents and is turning the department in a more academic direction. Current attending faculty have had long tenures at Rush and were trained in premier radiation oncology programs including JCRT, MSKCC, and Mallincrodt. In addition, for those who want to do research, we have a dedicated research/elective year. The two residents on research right now are doing bench work and simultaneous clinical research. Radiation oncology at Rush also allows residents to obtain a Masters in Physics (some work is done during the research year while the rest of the requirements are built into the program that all residents go through). All of our residents (for at least the past 5 years) have had posters or oral presentations at ASTRO or RSNA and have found good jobs in both academia and private practice. In our last 8 graduating residents, 5 have gone into academics. These five sites were Wake Forest, Mayo-Jacksonville, MD Anderson, Rush-Pres, and Kaiser in LA.