Programs not ranked... Why?

[LolaAnesthesia]

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What programs did you leave out of your ROL? Why?

I left NYMC and Albert Einstein/Montefiore out.

Why?

NYMC - left a really bad taste. Residents could not even fake good morale, almost seemed suicidal 😉 Attendings I met were horrible. Hardly any didactic time. Rotations involve traveling to multiple institutions, some about 30-40 mins apart. Good PD with a lot on her hands. Decided not to rank same day of interview.

Montefiore - Program on probation. Had a great PD when I interviewed who seemed to be moving the program in a good direction. However, PD left soon thereafter... not a good sign. Decided not to rank after learning that PD left with no explanation given to applicants.

 

[countingdays]

What programs did you leave out of your ROL? Why?

I left NYMC and Albert Einstein/Montefiore out.

Why?

NYMC - left a really bad taste. Residents could not even fake good morale, almost seemed suicidal 😉 Attendings I met were horrible. Hardly any didactic time. Rotations involve traveling to multiple institutions, some about 30-40 mins apart. Good PD with a lot on her hands. Decided not to rank same day of interview.

Montefiore - Program on probation. Had a great PD when I interviewed who seemed to be moving the program in a good direction. However, PD left soon thereafter... not a good sign. Decided not to rank after learning that PD left with no explanation given to applicants.

I find it hard to believe that going unmatched or even matching in another specialty is better than any anesthesia program. I mean, no one applies everywhere, but I really don't see why you wouldn't rank every place you interviewed. I'm always surprised when people list programs they didn't rank. Hopefully none of you live to regret it, but those programs will start sounding pretty good if you have nothing. I hope that doesn't happen to anyone based on their unranked list, but why risk it?

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

I find it hard to believe that going unmatched or even matching in another specialty is better than any anesthesia program. I mean, no one applies everywhere, but I really don't see why you wouldn't rank every place you interviewed. I'm always surprised when people list programs they didn't rank. Hopefully none of you live to regret it, but those programs will start sounding pretty good if you have nothing. I hope that doesn't happen to anyone based on their unranked list, but why risk it?

I completely disagree. Students should not rank a program they absolutely would not want to attend, specially if you feel that you have a good ROL going. There is much more to life than attending a program that you absolutely did not like and getting locked into that program for 3 or 4 years. Trust me, I would rather scramble to a 1 year position anywhere and try my luck at the match next year than be locked 3 years at NYMC. I would even prefer to get a job at Best Buy or Walmart than match at that institution. However, that is just my opinion and I am sure that some people would be happy to match there.

 

[Chief Brody]

I completely disagree. Students should not rank a program they absolutely would not want to attend, specially if you feel that you have a good ROL going. There is much more to life than attending a program that you absolutely did not like and getting locked into that program for 3 or 4 years. Trust me, I would rather scramble to a 1 year position anywhere and try my luck at the match next year than be locked 3 years at NYMC. I would even prefer to get a job at Best Buy or Walmart than match at that institution. However, that is just my opinion and I am sure that some people would be happy to match there.

Seems like you got to the essence of what it takes to not rank a program... the commitment to being happy. You had me at "Walmart". If you would rather work as a 'greeter' at that incubus then pass gas in Valhalla, NY, then that speaks volumes to the degree to which you and the NYMC program did not mesh together. However, this is a moot point. I don't think you will be donning a Walmart name-tag anytime soon... you've got a pretty impressive ROL.

 

[flyingdutchman]

I completely disagree. Students should not rank a program they absolutely would not want to attend, specially if you feel that you have a good ROL going. There is much more to life than attending a program that you absolutely did not like and getting locked into that program for 3 or 4 years. Trust me, I would rather scramble to a 1 year position anywhere and try my luck at the match next year than be locked 3 years at NYMC. I would even prefer to get a job at Best Buy or Walmart than match at that institution. However, that is just my opinion and I am sure that some people would be happy to match there.

I completely agree with you. There are certain programs that would simply provide a miserable experience for residency depending on the type of person you are, and it would indeed be better to just scramble as you said and still be happy. I wasn't going to rank Wayne State DMC but I forgot to modify my rank list before the deadline (doesn't matter since it's last though!). Basically very similar sentiments as what you said about NYMC above. Also, my mentor told me not to even rank them when he looked at my list. Would not be an enjoyable time doing residency there. It also encourages removal of lesser programs from your list when 3-4 way better programs call you and tell you you're ranked to match 3 weeks before ROL are due.....

 

[Jazzman9]

I left out Miami, UCLA Harbor, CaseWestern, CCF, Cook County, and MCW

Miami - great weather, but felt it was a little too superficial. Also felt its a workhorse program and too big for my taste

UCLA Harbor - Great location near the beach. Too small of a program with front-weighted call

Case/CCF - Really great programs if you want to be in Ohio, just not for me

Cook - Too small of a program although clinical training was surprisingly very strong

MCW - Didn't vibe with the residents as I had hoped.

Overall, I ended up ranking 10 programs and am hoping to end up in california

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

What programs did you leave out of your ROL? Why?

I left NYMC and Albert Einstein/Montefiore out.

I can't recall if I didn't rank them or just ranked them absolute bottom, but I shared the same sentiments for NYMC last year when I interviewed. A couple residents seemed happy with the program, but they were all FMGs who seemed happy that they matched anywhere. Once I asked one of the senior residents if he felt that faculty were always close enough to quickly assist when **** hit the fan in the OR, to which he replied, "Hell no! Sometimes they're running so many rooms I've had to just plug along and save a crashing patient with trial and error." Wow...not exactly a big selling point. And I remember one of my interviews had a senior resident present, and he asked several questions that showed he clearly hadn't read any of my CV. He ultimately admitted he hadn't read it at all and looked dog tired.

The other downside to that place is you potentially had to commute anywhere from Connecticut all the way down to Manhattan. Horrible commutes! The PD at the time seemed very nice and together, but there were other things that needed work. She kept stressing something about their ratio of ASA 3/4 patients or something like that, saying it was one of the highest in the country. In any event, I was impressed with some things, but overall didn't see myself intentionally signing up for that.

 

[xbulletin]

Thats funny. Out of my interviews, the only place I did not rank was NYMC. The chair seemed alright, but the rest of the department creeped me out. The residents couldn't muster any enthusiasm and the one giving the tour looked ready to face plant from fatigue.

On the other hand, I did rank einstein. It sucked that the new PD left, but the chair seemed pretty legit too. It was also a hospital well known in the northeast attached to a well-known med school. Couldn't leave it off, although its position seems precarious.

 

[sunset823]

I left out Miami, UCLA Harbor, CaseWestern, CCF, Cook County, and MCW

Miami - great weather, but felt it was a little too superficial. Also felt its a workhorse program and too big for my taste

UCLA Harbor - Great location near Redondo/Hermosa Beach. Too small of a program with front-weighted call

Case/CCF - Really great programs if you want to be in Ohio, just not for me

Cook - Too small of a program although clinical training was surprisingly very strong

MCW - Didn't vibe with the residents as I had hoped.

Overall, I ended up ranking 10 programs and am hoping to end up in california

While I wish you luck with your match and hope you get where you want, I have an issue with this. Why did you take up interview slots at Case and CCF if you had no intention of putting them on your match list? Those are both great programs that a lot of people would be ecstatic to match at (including me - I grew up in Cleveland), and you're just throwing them away based on location. And an ROL of 10, while adequate, is not nearly as safe a bet as an ROL of 16, and none of the reasons you gave seemed as compelling as why lola didn't rank two programs.

I understand lola's sentiments of not matching a program based on the issue of malignancy, unhappiness, etc., but not ranking a program simply based on location is a bit disingenuous. Why did you apply to those programs in the first place? When I apply in the future, I am going to be extremely open about location, but there are certain parts of the country I do not want to live in, particularly extremely hot places in the south cuz I hate the heat, so I just won't apply there. And I would definitely rank every program unless there were some major issues like lola seemed to state, not just because I don't like the city or the weather.

I guess I'm frustrated with this thinking because matching is going to get harder and harder as I become an M4, and interview slots being taken up by people with no real interest in the program who aren't even going to rank it at all (even much lower in their list) makes it that much harder for others who are truly interested in those programs.

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

Why did you take up interview slots at Case and CCF if you had no intention of putting them on your match list? Those are both great programs that a lot of people would be ecstatic to match at, and you're just throwing them away based on location.

It's stories like this that make me think they need to cap the number of places you can apply to on ERAS--or at least charge more money after 20 or so. With few exceptions (derm, rad-onc), there is NO real reason to apply to 50 or so programs, but people do it all the time. Why? Because everyone else is. They need to clamp down on that and make it so everyone is truly applying too the 10-20 places they would be most happy. Would save everyone in the process a lot of time and money.

 

[MossPoh]

Of course, the other side of the coin is that many people don't know where they would be happy before hand. Places can catch someone off guard and be a lot better fit than they anticipated as well. Naturally, there is a difference between applying to a place with the knowledge you despise that region or city already and applying somewhere random with very little to go off of. I also think that the ease of computer applications has hampered the thought and research that might go into a program (or med school). I'm sure far fewer people would apply to 20+ programs if they knew they had to request an application and fill it all out with the letters and junk associated with applications.

 

[sunset823]

It's stories like this that make me think they need to cap the number of places you can apply to on ERAS--or at least charge more money after 20 or so. With few exceptions (derm, rad-onc), there is NO real reason to apply to 50 or so programs, but people do it all the time. Why? Because everyone else is. They need to clamp down on that and make it so everyone is truly applying too the 10-20 places they would be most happy. Would save everyone in the process a lot of time and money.

Yeah, I would be open to them charging $ after the first 20, or maybe first 30. (For the people applying to every derm or radonc program in the country, well, they'll make the money back). I do think they should keep the option open to applying to more (not have a cap), for more borderline candidates (low steps, IMGs, etc.), but I agree that this applying just for the sake of applying without actually considering where you want to be, just cuz everyone else is doing it is kind of ridiculous. The match is getting super competitive, and I have a feeling they are shutting out a lot of good candidates cuz the superstars are covering their butts by applying to places they don't really have any interest in (as mosspoh pointed out, this was limited in the med school process by the extra essays, secondaries you'd have to write).

 

[IlDestriero]

I guess I'm frustrated with this thinking because matching is going to get harder and harder as I become an M4, and interview slots being taken up by people with no real interest in the program who aren't even going to rank it at all (even much lower in their list) makes it that much harder for others who are truly interested in those programs.

Get used to it. People do this with jobs and fellowships as well. A free weekend vacation to xxxxxxxx. Even though there's little chance of them accepting an offer. I cancelled a couple fellowship interviews after I got a couple of offers at programs I really liked. With jobs, I did a thorough pre screening interview by phone before I bothered to fly out for a look. No sense wasting my time on a job I'll never accept. Peds anesthesia fellowship is transitioning to a match. We'll see how that works out.

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

Get used to it. People do this with jobs and fellowships as well. A free weekend vacation to xxxxxxxx. Even though there's little chance of them accepting an offer. I cancelled a couple fellowship interviews after I got a couple of offers at programs I really liked. With jobs, I did a thorough pre screening interview by phone before I bothered to fly out for a look. No sense wasting my time on a job I'll never accept. Peds anesthesia fellowship is transitioning to a match. We'll see how that works out.

Yeah, I'm sure it's standard. I feel like it wasn't as pervasive with applying to med school, though, because of the fact that you always had to do the "secondaries," as someone above mentioned.

Not a fan of peds anesthesia going to match, though I have no interest at this point in that fellowship. Nonetheless, I kind of like that most anesthesia fellowships aren't match.

 

[IlDestriero]

Yeah, I'm sure it's standard. I feel like it wasn't as pervasive with applying to med school, though, because of the fact that you always had to do the "secondaries," as someone above mentioned.

Not a fan of peds anesthesia going to match, though I have no interest at this point in that fellowship. Nonetheless, I kind of like that most anesthesia fellowships aren't match.

Our fellowship only released 1/2 of it's spots to the match, so we can still recruit our own and secure superstars. There's still plenty of room for the Old Boy's Club to work it's magic.😉

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

Didn't rank Monte for 2 reasons - Chairwoman told me not to rank them during my interview (super awkward). The PD left soon after and no program can be awesome with out Corey.

St Lukes -Terrible vibe during interview day and had a HORRIBLE impression of their residents.

 

[deleted50478]

Didn't rank Monte for 2 reasons - Chairwoman told me not to rank them during my interview (super awkward). The PD left soon after and no program can be awesome with out Corey.

St Lukes -Terrible vibe during interview day and had a HORRIBLE impression of their residents.

Wow. That guy is making abandoning programs a habit.

 

[countingdays]

I completely disagree. Students should not rank a program they absolutely would not want to attend, specially if you feel that you have a good ROL going. There is much more to life than attending a program that you absolutely did not like and getting locked into that program for 3 or 4 years. Trust me, I would rather scramble to a 1 year position anywhere and try my luck at the match next year than be locked 3 years at NYMC. I would even prefer to get a job at Best Buy or Walmart than match at that institution. However, that is just my opinion and I am sure that some people would be happy to match there.

Yeah. The majority, predictably, says that not ranking programs is a good idea. In most cases, it doesn't make any difference because you match. I've yet to read a post by someone who didn't rank every program where they interviewed, went unmatched, and thought it was a good move.
I hope you all match. If you don't, come on here and let us know if you think that going unmatched is better than NYMC or Montefiore or Miami or CCF? When you are scrambling into family medicine in BFE or prelim surgery in 100hrs is for the weak-ville, you'll dream of doing anesthesia in Cleveland or Detroit.

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

It's stories like this that make me think they need to cap the number of places you can apply to on ERAS--or at least charge more money after 20 or so. With few exceptions (derm, rad-onc), there is NO real reason to apply to 50 or so programs, but people do it all the time. Why? Because everyone else is. They need to clamp down on that and make it so everyone is truly applying too the 10-20 places they would be most happy. Would save everyone in the process a lot of time and money.

Simple explanation for NOT capping the number of programs students applied to:

You can apply to 50 programs and only get 2 interviews.... There is no way of predicting how many invites you might get. It is a crapshoot, you can have a great app with Step 1 of 260, AOA, etc... that get invited to top programs and not to mid-range programs... and students with the same app that get invited to the mid-range and not top... No way to know.

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

Yeah. The majority, predictably, says that not ranking programs is a good idea. In most cases, it doesn't make any difference because you match. I've yet to read a post by someone who didn't rank every program where they interviewed, went unmatched, and thought it was a good move.
I hope you all match. If you don't, come on here and let us know if you think that going unmatched is better than NYMC or Montefiore or Miami or CCF? When you are scrambling into family medicine in BFE or prelim surgery in 100hrs is for the weak-ville, you'll dream of doing anesthesia in Cleveland or Detroit.

Would still prefer to work at Best Buy, dear fellow. ;-)

 

[Goforbroke]

Yeah. The majority, predictably, says that not ranking programs is a good idea. In most cases, it doesn't make any difference because you match. I've yet to read a post by someone who didn't rank every program where they interviewed, went unmatched, and thought it was a good move.
I hope you all match. If you don't, come on here and let us know if you think that going unmatched is better than NYMC or Montefiore or Miami or CCF? When you are scrambling into family medicine in BFE or prelim surgery in 100hrs is for the weak-ville, you'll dream of doing anesthesia in Cleveland or Detroit.

Seriously, it's only 3-4 years as well. You'd be insane to rather spend the rest of your life doing family med than afew years in miami or ccf. And for the people who say "do an intern year and re-apply," hope you have a trust fund back home cause I sure as hell can't afford to pay for another go-round of interviews and travel expenses.

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

Simple explanation for NOT capping the number of programs students applied to:

You can apply to 50 programs and only get 2 interviews.... There is no way of predicting how many invites you might get. It is a crapshoot, you can have a great app with Step 1 of 260, AOA, etc... that get invited to top programs and not to mid-range programs... and students with the same app that get invited to the mid-range and not top... No way to know.

Maybe a better solution would be to cap the number of places at which any applicant can interview? Of course, that would change the whole nature of ERAS such that it would have to keep track of these things--and I'm sure it would be subject to some back-door deals and corruption.

But at least that way you wouldn't have paranoid top-notch students interviewing at 15+ programs, including some mid- and low-tier programs that they're never going to rank highly. And that would force those programs to offer interview spots to more reasonable candidates, and in the end everyone would expend less time and money.

 

[Jazzman9]

While I wish you luck with your match and hope you get where you want, I have an issue with this. Why did you take up interview slots at Case and CCF if you had no intention of putting them on your match list? Those are both great programs that a lot of people would be ecstatic to match at (including me - I grew up in Cleveland), and you're just throwing them away based on location. And an ROL of 10, while adequate, is not nearly as safe a bet as an ROL of 16, and none of the reasons you gave seemed as compelling as why lola didn't rank two programs.

I understand lola's sentiments of not matching a program based on the issue of malignancy, unhappiness, etc., but not ranking a program simply based on location is a bit disingenuous. Why did you apply to those programs in the first place? When I apply in the future, I am going to be extremely open about location, but there are certain parts of the country I do not want to live in, particularly extremely hot places in the south cuz I hate the heat, so I just won't apply there. And I would definitely rank every program unless there were some major issues like lola seemed to state, not just because I don't like the city or the weather.

I guess I'm frustrated with this thinking because matching is going to get harder and harder as I become an M4, and interview slots being taken up by people with no real interest in the program who aren't even going to rank it at all (even much lower in their list) makes it that much harder for others who are truly interested in those programs.

Sunset, I apologize if I offended you or anyone else on this forum. Truth be told, I'm a very average applicant and CCF was my first interview. When I first started this process, I had the mentality that I would just rank the most prestigious programs highest because that's what I thought was the most important. But I have a family, and I wanted to make sure they would be happy too. I notified all of the programs I wasn't planning to rank by Feb 1 and told them I was thankful for the opportunity they gave me, but that their program just wasn't for me. From my understanding, places like CCF, MCW, Case, etc don't usually have to scramble to fill their classes so no harm no foul. I know this application process is cutthroat and if I had known 100% from the get go that I wasn't going to rank them, I wouldn't have gone to the interview... save the time and the money. I applied to 22 programs.... a mix of tops, average, and lower tier because you never know whats going to happen. I canceled interviews at least one month out and never led programs on. I am confident with my list of 10, and if I don't match, having added CCF probably wouldn't have made a difference...

 

[kaioukenx]

It makes no logical sense to worry about other people going on interviews without ranking the programs. I highly doubt that the number of these occurrences fluctuates much from year to year. It is simply an artifact of the match system and it will never change as long as the match is in place. Dead space ventilation, if you will. Unless the program in question doesn't fill, you weren't getting in anyways. Then you have a decent gripe, but it's with the program itself and not your fellow applicants.

I agree with MossPoh that not everyone necessarily has been to all parts of the country. What's wrong with someone checking out Ohio for the first time and discovering it's not for them? Just as you are acting in self-interest by asking others to sacrifice their earned interviews for you, you should expect others to also act in their own self interest.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Why do you guys care if people ranked 5 or if people ranked 30?

10 seems to be the safe bet, you don't have to rank every program you interviewed... especially if you felt that it was super malignant, crappy didactics, piss-poor location, excessive traveling for out-rotations, etc...

One of you is a 1st or 2nd year med student who almost failed pharmacology (or failed, I dont know nor care), I dont think you should be caring about what 4th year med students do or don't do... you should be caring more about passing your classes and doing well on the Steps..

If someone posted their reasons for not interviewing, that's fine, but I dont understand why you feel that everyone should rank every program they interviewed... hell, if I had the choice, I wouldn't have ranked one of those programs I ranked, but given how I only had 7, I felt it would be a dumb choice not to rank... if I had 15 to choose from, I sure as hell wouldn't have ranked that one program (and yes, it's the program in NJ).. people rank or not rank based on where they enjoyed their time, felt they could have an excellent experience, and where they may want to end up living ...but, they also look at their competitiveness and gauge how things may go. Sure, one may not match with 10, but I'm willing to put money that if you had 10-15 interviews and ranked 10 (as long as it wasn't all uber elite programs), you'll match. I didn't feel like I had that luxury to be choosy, so hence I ranked all of mine.

CCF, MCW, Case, Miami aren't starving for applicants, BTW.
I don't know crap about NYMC but Valhalla sounds like a hell hole to me.

 

[Chief Brody]

Maybe now we can get back to the topic at hand. T-minus 18 days and counting.

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

Maybe now we can get back to the topic at hand. T-minus 18 days and counting.

Yes, please... would like to hear more from all about programs not ranked and why.

 

[Icefrog]

Yeah, I would be open to them charging $ after the first 20, or maybe first 30. (For the people applying to every derm or radonc program in the country, well, they'll make the money back). I do think they should keep the option open to applying to more (not have a cap), for more borderline candidates (low steps, IMGs, etc.), but I agree that this applying just for the sake of applying without actually considering where you want to be, just cuz everyone else is doing it is kind of ridiculous. The match is getting super competitive, and I have a feeling they are shutting out a lot of good candidates cuz the superstars are covering their butts by applying to places they don't really have any interest in (as mosspoh pointed out, this was limited in the med school process by the extra essays, secondaries you'd have to write).

What do you mean by "shutting out a lot of good candidates"? I'm assuming you mean applicants who don't get offered an interview because there are a lot of other applicants who "stole" that interview slot with little intention of seriously considering attending the program.

Well, that's only valid if those programs don't fill. As long as a program fills, that means they interviewed and ranked enough people they wanted, and the people who got "shut out" are people they did not want anyway. There aren't that many programs that don't fill, so programs are still getting the candidates they want.

Furthermore, programs are very aware of keeping track of the number of interviews they must offer and people they must rank to reliably fill. I doubt many interview spots are actually being stolen, because programs will continue to offer as many interviews as it takes for them to feel comfortable filling.

 

[lilowangatang]

When I went on that interview, I had some hotshot attending interview me, and the entire 20 minute interview, he was breaking NRMP rules like asking me where else I'd interviewed and what I thought each of their strengths and weaknesses were. I tried being political, and he kept probing. He also was very terse, and it felt more like a grilling session than an interview. Left and overall sour taste in my mouth.

Other places that I thought had faults but the city made up for:
1. Miami- residents looked super worn out to me, and I'm never fond of places with a prominent eye center. My interviewer would cut me off during my responses and ask question after question. Not pleasant. Program also too large. Duke made a good point- a smaller group allows every resident to get the cream of the crop cases but big programs put you to work doing sometimes scut worthless cases.
2. NYU- tried sending a card, and their secretary Sonia never responded to my email asking for a mailing address. I emailed her >2times. Interview day was very blah and disorganized. When I asked about research opportunities, my interviewer's response was "but you don't really have that much research activity, so why would you be interested?"

 

[DrMunkey]

Get used to it. People do this with jobs and fellowships as well. A free weekend vacation to xxxxxxxx. Even though there's little chance of them accepting an offer. I cancelled a couple fellowship interviews after I got a couple of offers at programs I really liked. With jobs, I did a thorough pre screening interview by phone before I bothered to fly out for a look. No sense wasting my time on a job I'll never accept. Peds anesthesia fellowship is transitioning to a match. We'll see how that works out.

The first year of the match for Peds is in progress (for 2012-13). I've heard from a lot of fellowship coordinators and directors that it has seemingly increased the number of applicants per program although I'm sure the applicant pool isn't necessarily increased heavily over previous years. It's a side effect of the match, people cast wider safety nets in the fear of not matching. Even though there are probably no more/less spots or applicants as in previous years, programs are seeing a larger influx of interest. C'est la vie.

 

[Narcotized]

no program can be awesome with out Corey.

So you are saying there are no awesome programs in the entire country?

 

[Narcotized]

Wow. That guy is making abandoning programs a habit.

Quite a colorful fellow. Knew him at another program in NY. Someone on here has got to have the info on what happened because I'm betting it's one Hell of a story.