Proof that the job market sucks.

[Thrombus]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/Testimonialsjob.html

I especially like these gems:

“We’ve had a terrific response to our ad from a few weeks ago (over 40 applicants now). However, the response has been too high.” Mr. M, Tennessee, 28 August 2009



“We have had over 90 responses! The president says half of them are viable candidates.” Ms. S, Washington, 21 August 2009

“Within minutes after you posted the ad, I received a response. Truly amazing.” Mr. M, Tennessee, 11 August 2009

“This was the easiest recruit I have ever done. The influx of candidates was amazing.” Ms. Y, Indiana, 3 March 2009

“We’ve gotten a lot of applications. Please remove our ad [after 3 1/2 weeks].” Ms. S, Florida, 9 February 2009

“Thanks, Nat. I’ve already gotten phone calls and e-mails from the ad [after posting for 2 hours], which is pretty amazing! I appreciate your help.” Dr. C, by email, 11 September 2008

“I had an excellent response. . . The hardest part was selecting among the applicants.” Dr. B, by telephone, 14 April 2008

“We had an excellent, fabulous response. . . Almost all of our traffic came from you. . . We had a ton of candidates.” Ms. I, Illinois, 8 February 2008

“Can you please remove our job posting. We have more than enough candidates ... “ Ms. E, Wisconsin, 29 August 2007

“You should also know that within two days I have received CV's from eight quality candidates for our position”, Dr. Z, Arizona, 24 August 2007

 

[LADoc00]

yep, that is a bad sign and probably only tip of the iceberg

 

[Sulfinator]

Yes. By all means, people should abandon the field. Medical students should not apply to path programs. That way there will be more room for me, because I am thick-headed enough to continue with my intent to undertake postgraduate training in pathology. 😉

 

[Thrombus]

Yes. By all means, people should abandon the field. Medical students should not apply to path programs. That way there will be more room for me, because I am thick-headed enough to continue with my intent to undertake postgraduate training in pathology. 😉

I was this guy once....with all the brashness it carries. And it was the worst thing possible for me too.

Now I am one of these guys: “We have had over 90 responses! The president says half of them are viable candidates.” Ms. S, Washington, 21 August 2009

Not too enviable would you say?

But the brash medical student will proclaim "I am different/better than all the rest!"

Fortunately for the hopeful few who still listen before they speak, there are warning signs out there, many of which were not there when I was considering the field. They all say the same thing: Path is on a one way track to a dead end job.

 

[Parts Unknown]

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/Testimonialsjob.html

I especially like these gems:

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, but this line of evidence is riddled with selection bias. One wouldn't expect them to include testimonials that don't support their goal of self-promotion.

"We advertised for nine months and received all of three CVs from nobody but narcoleptic crackwhores."

 

[Parts Unknown]

I was this guy once....with all the brashness it carries. And it was the worst thing possible for me too.

Now I am one of these guys: “We have had over 90 responses! The president says half of them are viable candidates.” Ms. S, Washington, 21 August 2009

Not too enviable would you say?

Awww, cheer up, the job hunting season is young!

 

[lipomas]

Fortunately for the hopeful few who still listen before they speak, there are warning signs out there, many of which were not there when I was considering the field. They all say the same thing: Path is on a one way track to a dead end job.

That last statement is much too extreme and not helpful.

And as far as the warning signs being not there when you considered the field, are you over 50? The warning signs have been there for well over 10 years. Just because you didn't pay attention to them then doesn't mean they weren't there. People were doing multiple fellowships 10 years ago, this is nothing new. There were lots of IMGs who were bouncing around the country looking for any job. Many practicing pathologists are on their third or fourth job by the time they are 50. Reimbursement has been plummeting for 10 years. People like to talk about things as if they are recent developments when they are not. Maybe they are just noticed more now.

I would also suggest that people listen and think before they act. Don't take things as gospel, especially because anonymous truth tellers say them on internet forums. But don't take things as gospel because your med school professor or department chairman says them either, because these people are often clueless. Do your own research, do your own hunting around.

 

[lipomas]

“We have had over 90 responses! The president says half of them are viable candidates.” Ms. S, Washington, 21 August 2009

LOL, only half? What are the other half then? I thought, from what is posted on this forum, that all board certified pathologists deserve a great job no matter how unqualified they are.

But yes, these testimonials speak poorly about the state of the job market. It is very depressing that good candidates can't find a good job. In isolation, any of these comments would be meaningless but all together they are more informative.

 

[Thrombus]

That last statement is much too extreme and not helpful.

And as far as the warning signs being not there when you considered the field, are you over 50? The warning signs have been there for well over 10 years. Just because you didn't pay attention to them then doesn't mean they weren't there. People were doing multiple fellowships 10 years ago, this is nothing new. There were lots of IMGs who were bouncing around the country looking for any job. Many practicing pathologists are on their third or fourth job by the time they are 50. Reimbursement has been plummeting for 10 years. People like to talk about things as if they are recent developments when they are not. Maybe they are just noticed more now.

I would also suggest that people listen and think before they act. Don't take things as gospel, especially because anonymous truth tellers say them on internet forums. But don't take things as gospel because your med school professor or department chairman says them either, because these people are often clueless. Do your own research, do your own hunting around.

Information dissemination has exponentially grown in the last 10 years. Single specialty groups have sprung up like weeds. The employment of pathologists by other specialties has arisen prominently. Looming government takeover has become more feasible than ever. Those are the latest developments that should serve as warnings. Of course there were many I was exposed to and didn't listen to as I was entering the field. Nowhere do I disregard my own previous ignorance but rather recognized my own brash attitude about it.

90 physicians applying for a job is incredible I don't care how great it is. Many of the other places are in rural areas which were flooded with applications. This evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable except by those who are either completely ignorant in their own little ivory tower or willingly agenda-driven.

 

[Sulfinator]

I was this guy once....with all the brashness it carries. And it was the worst thing possible for me too.

I don't think I'm brash at all. I have thought very seriously about all the issues that come with committing to a given specialty. I considered the IM-Heme/Onc route as well, but have chosen Pathology instead after weighing it all out, the 'objective' data as well as the personal/idiosyncratic components. Might things prove difficult? Might I find myself in a undesirable or 'unenviable' situation? Yes, I know these are possibilities. But I am choosing this training option in spite of those, because the chance of being able to do something I love and find satisfying makes those risks worth it to me (I will emphasize the "to me" part).

 

[LADoc00]

Here is my experience:
Advertised I think in 2007? for a cytotech. A cytotech to screen paps.

5 boarded Pathologists applied. For what, I wasnt sure. Rechecked my ad, yep said CYTOTECH TO SCREEN PAPS. I scratched my head and drank some Don Anejo reserve rum to contempt what it all meant....

 

[yaah]

I don't think I'm brash at all. I have thought very seriously about all the issues that come with committing to a given specialty. I considered the IM-Heme/Onc route as well, but have chosen Pathology instead after weighing it all out, the 'objective' data as well as the personal/idiosyncratic components. Might things prove difficult? Might I find myself in a undesirable or 'unenviable' situation? Yes, I know these are possibilities. But I am choosing this training option in spite of those, because the chance of being able to do something I love and find satisfying makes those risks worth it to me (I will emphasize the "to me" part).

There are problems in every field, and in every career save that of professional athlete. You have to find what makes YOU happy. IM may not have as many of the issues of job finding but they have even more issues related to declining pay, having to do more in less time, less respect, etc. For some people the job finding issues are easier to deal with than the other things, so IM is less attractive. For others, all the care about is having a job and a stable career, so it becomes more attractive. I've talked to private practice radiologists and dermatologists who are miserable too. Nothing in medicine is really a sure thing anymore. You have to know what you're getting into and be ready for it. If you truly are, you will most likely be fine. If you're not, then you will find more and more problems popping up.

 

[Patho2009]

That's true. Even being Boarded, the job is not guaranteed. Everybody struggles but should get "something" in the end. This is what I saw with myself and all of my colleagues.


The mistake most people do is to restrict their job search to certain areas (e.g big cities, the two coasts..avoiding the midwest where there are many openings) or certain positions (i.e. academic in a university vs private lab).

The future might be even darker with the bad economy but as we see on pathologyoutlines.com, there are plenty of jobs nationwide and you shouldn't restrict your search to certain States, expecially if you can move around. Experienced pathologists change their jobs frequently and this might increase the competitveness for the junior pathologists who just graduate and pass their boards. IMG is also a big issue as they are all over and compete with AMG. Because of communication skills, their chances is much less.

Those pathologists who work as Cytotech or PA always have a problem (couldn't pass the boards, could't get the license, come to the States and did training overseas...) . I don't think what is posted is true.

If you are still in training, keep moving and focus on passing the boards. Many employers now do not recognize (board eligible). Be boarded, well-trained, do some papers and research, do fellowships in the demanded fields (cyto, GI, GU) in the well-reputed programs, as possible and you will be fine. If you're a student, re-consider pathology unless you like it. As posted before multiple times, opportunities in any other field are much higher than pathology. Not to mention the negative things in pathology (long road: 4 years + one or two fellowships + research or publications, boring field: just sitting in office all the day under the microscope resulting in neck stiffness!, in the grossing room or in the morgue!...lol) Although there are porblems in every field, the demand for other specialties is -no doubt- much higher than pathology...and they might be -relatively- more enjoyable!

 

[Parts Unknown]

Here is my experience:
Advertised I think in 2007? for a cytotech. A cytotech to screen paps.

5 boarded Pathologists applied. For what, I wasnt sure. Rechecked my ad, yep said CYTOTECH TO SCREEN PAPS. I scratched my head and drank some Don Anejo reserve rum to contempt what it all meant....

I think it means that it's cheap and easy to throw a CV in the mail, especially when you have an address to send it to. What's the worst that could happen?

Sites like pathologyoutlines make it all too easy. Via email, I can literally blast out an updated CV and semi-personalized cover letter in less than four minutes. Why the Hell not? What do I have to lose?

 

[Nilf]

That's true. Even being Boarded, the job is not guaranteed. Everybody struggles but should get "something" in the end. This is what I saw with myself and all of my colleagues.



Those pathologists who work as Cytotech or PA always have a problem (couldn't pass the boards, could't get the license, come to the States and did training overseas...) . I don't think what is posted is true.

I personally know a resident from my fairly reputable program, American med school graduate, who graduated from residency without any trouble, boarded, no fellowships, and ended up grossing little biopsies for almost a year because he could not find a position. He looked all over the country, and eventually landed something in midwest after a year of searching.

 

[BrainPathology]

Here is my experience:
Advertised I think in 2007? for a cytotech. A cytotech to screen paps.

5 boarded Pathologists applied. For what, I wasnt sure. Rechecked my ad, yep said CYTOTECH TO SCREEN PAPS. I scratched my head and drank some Don Anejo reserve rum to contempt what it all meant....

I think it might mean you encountered some of the incompetent pathologists that some people have been talking about here. If someone can't even read what the job ad is for it's hard to feel sorry for them not getting a job. 😛

Maybe they were trying to follow a spouse in a different specialty who had already lined up a great job to the city and dind't care what they were doing for a while.

It's probably more likely that they wanted your company to have their resumes in case you were hiring or thinking about hiring pathologists in the future. You are in Southern California after all, I wouldn't be suprised if there are plenty of people looking to pepper the city with resumes. Not that I believe that's a good strategy.

 

[BrainPathology]

I personally know a resident from my fairly reputable program, American med school graduate, who graduated from residency without any trouble, boarded, no fellowships, and ended up grossing little biopsies for almost a year because he could not find a position. He looked all over the country, and eventually landed something in midwest after a year of searching.

How did your program let him graduate without getting a fellowship? How did his friends? It sucks that the reality is it's nearly impossible to find a job without one but it IS the reality. I'm more impressed with the fact that he was doing anything at all for that year and that after only a year he found a job. Was he making more during that year than a fellowship pays generally? If so than maybe that is a strategy worth considering.

 

[Pathwrath]

And as far as the warning signs being not there when you considered the field, are you over 50? The warning signs have been there for well over 10 years. Just because you didn't pay attention to them then doesn't mean they weren't there.

The warning signs have been there, but don't forget the varying rays of official sunshine blown up the asses of prospective pathologists over the years.

The imminent retirement of thousands and thousands of geriatric pathologists was the big lie a few years back. Funny, but I don't hear about that one so much anymore.

Nowadays, we have ASCP's president proclaiming a pathologist shortage at the same time her organization's crummy data suggests exactly the opposite. And there's always the overblown promise of new technologies that will somehow generate demand out of nowhere.

Young trainees take all this horse$hit seriously, because it it coming out of the mouths of people in authority.

 

[2121115]

Just looking over pathology outlines, it seems that the overwhelming majority of private practice partnership track positions are in the midwest. Is there something particular about the midwest that makes this so? On both coasts and in the southeast it seems like academic jobs only. Is it just that practices in the southeast and coasts don't use pathologyoutlines.com or that there aren't any job openings for private practices?

What is it about the midwest that makes them have traditional partnership-track positions open moreso than the rest of the country?

 

[Nilf]

How did your program let him graduate without getting a fellowship? How did his friends? It sucks that the reality is it's nearly impossible to find a job without one but it IS the reality. I'm more impressed with the fact that he was doing anything at all for that year and that after only a year he found a job. Was he making more during that year than a fellowship pays generally? If so than maybe that is a strategy worth considering.

The program let him graduate because he was competent pathologist.

After graduation, he wanted a job, not a fellowship.

All other residents from his graduating class did fellowships.

I don't know how much he was making, but these demeaning jobs pay fairly well, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was making as much or more as some full-time working pathologists.

BTW, I thought it was funny that you think grossing little biopsies would be 'strategy worth considering'.

 

[2121115]

The program let him graduate because he was competent pathologist.

After graduation, he wanted a job, not a fellowship.

All other residents from his graduating class did fellowships.

I don't know how much he was making, but these demeaning jobs pay fairly well, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was making as much or more as some full-time working pathologists.

BTW, I thought it was funny that you think grossing little biopsies would be 'strategy worth considering'.

I'm sure there are plenty of anesthesia residency grads out there who took work as anesthesia assistant to bridge them to getting that first gig as an attending. My friend just finished internal medicine residency and he said he may only have to work for a year as a floor nurse before he finds an attending position.

 

[lipomas]

What is it about the midwest that makes them have traditional partnership-track positions open moreso than the rest of the country?

I think part of it is because the mega labs have concentrated on the high-density markets in the northeast and south. And the west coast is dominated by a few players. The midwest has far more rural, isolated places, as well as non-rural places that are more independent. It's hard to know if that will change though. The southeast is dominated by a couple of regional health systems, many of which are for profit. A lot of midwestern states do not have for-profit healthcare. I think Minnesota actually forbids it by state law.

The northeast also tends to be the type of environment where hierarchies rule (in academics and outside of academics) - you pay your dues and eventually you get there. And the problem with california is that too many educated people want to live there and they overwhelm the system.

Or maybe midwesterners are simply more likely to be ethical 🙂

Maybe another reason is that there are simply more training places on the coasts, and since graduates tend to stay where they train, there are fewer openings. How many pathology training programs are there in the NYC area, for example, 25? There are two in MN, 2 in Wisconsin, 1 in iowa, 1 in SD and 0 in ND. That's a big region for a total of 6 programs.

 

[pathstudent]

I don't think it proves the job market sucks. It just shoes the power od the Internet and the digital age.

I read how there is now a primary college application that you fill out and then cjeck the schools you want to go to. Supposedly harvard had five times as many applicants now as in the nineties. It doesn't mean college is five times as har to get into. It means it is easier to apply because all you have to do is check harvard.

It is the same with online job ads.

 

[BrainPathology]

The program let him graduate because he was competent pathologist.

After graduation, he wanted a job, not a fellowship.

All other residents from his graduating class did fellowships.

I don't know how much he was making, but these demeaning jobs pay fairly well, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was making as much or more as some full-time working pathologists.

BTW, I thought it was funny that you think grossing little biopsies would be 'strategy worth considering'.

If he got a job he liked after a year of it, making better money, it's a better strategy than doing a fellowship which is bascially just the replacement for the 5th year. You're not actually going to advance that the overriding value advanced by the vast majority of large contributors to this board isn't that pathologists should make exactly as much as they want in exactly the site that they want in exactly as few hours as they prefer are you? Going by that being a 'good' pathologists number 1 goal then making more money in the same 365 day period and still landing a job = good strategy.

As for the program graduating him because he's a competent pathologist I'll believe he was. -- Only because you're vouching for him though - not because I've never seen a chief resident pathologist who couldn't find obvious fungus on a GMS after - literally - 15 minutes of uncomfortable silence at an unknown conference, then graduate and then get a partnership track job in south FL after a surg path fellowship at a big name place. I was commenting on the incompentency of the program in failing to engender even the haziest sense of the realities of the job market to him. If he actually got through 4 years of residency thinking an extra year of doing "something" wasn't going to happen, your PD needs to be replaced.

 

[LADoc00]

I think regardless of fellowships, most of our new folks will drink deep from the twin fountains of failure and mediocrity through no fault of your own.

My advice:
Dont get a taste for fancy things, pass on the Dom Perignon, the weekends at the Half Moon Bay Ritz-Carlton and the ride in the GranCabrio Maserati. Dont make that reservation at Michael Minna's in the City. Stay grounded, pull into Sizzler's in the Saturn or Honda Hybrid and be proud.
Buy the smallest, least expensive house you can live in. Ignore the rantings of your in-laws about the house not being up to snuff.
Save every penny you can and more!
Be wary of everyone, including yourself.
Expect to never make partner and plan accordingly.
Expect to take 30 years to pay off your student loans, mortgage and other large debt accounts.
Expect to not retire before 70.

 

[pathstudent]

You sound like we will be talking like pediatriciand talk now. Wasn't path once the best kept secret where you made as mich money as a surgical subspecialist but only worked 9-4 and had a low handicap. My friends who have just entered private practice claim to work 12-14 hours a day. More proof that academics is the way to go in this day and age.



[/B]

I think regardless of fellowships, most of our new folks will drink deep from the twin fountains of failure and mediocrity through no fault of your own.

My advice:
Dont get a taste for fancy things, pass on the Dom Perignon, the weekends at the Half Moon Bay Ritz-Carlton and the ride in the GranCabrio Maserati. Dont make that reservation at Michael Minna's in the City. Stay grounded, pull into Sizzler's in the Saturn or Honda Hybrid and be proud.
Buy the smallest, least expensive house you can live in. Ignore the rantings of your in-laws about the house not being up to snuff.
Save every penny you can and more!
Be wary of everyone, including yourself.
Expect to never make partner and plan accordingly.
Expect to take 30 years to pay off your student loans, mortgage and other large debt accounts.
Expect to not retire before 70.

 

[Nilf]

As for the program graduating him because he's a competent pathologist I'll believe he was. -- Only because you're vouching for him though - not because I've never seen a chief resident pathologist who couldn't find obvious fungus on a GMS after - literally - 15 minutes of uncomfortable silence at an unknown conference, then graduate and then get a partnership track job in south FL after a surg path fellowship at a big name place. I was commenting on the incompentency of the program in failing to engender even the haziest sense of the realities of the job market to him. If he actually got through 4 years of residency thinking an extra year of doing "something" wasn't going to happen, your PD needs to be replaced.

You have a point there.

 

[Nilf]

I think regardless of fellowships, most of our new folks will drink deep from the twin fountains of failure and mediocrity through no fault of your own.

My advice:
Dont get a taste for fancy things, pass on the Dom Perignon, the weekends at the Half Moon Bay Ritz-Carlton and the ride in the GranCabrio Maserati. Dont make that reservation at Michael Minna's in the City. Stay grounded, pull into Sizzler's in the Saturn or Honda Hybrid and be proud.
Buy the smallest, least expensive house you can live in. Ignore the rantings of your in-laws about the house not being up to snuff.
Save every penny you can and more!
Be wary of everyone, including yourself.
Expect to never make partner and plan accordingly.
Expect to take 30 years to pay off your student loans, mortgage and other large debt accounts.
Expect to not retire before 70.

oh man, this is so depressing, I might just as well go Kurt Cobain now. Does having dermpath fellowship under my belt alter the equation?

 

[yaah]

If you start getting a taste for the fancy things no amount of salary will truly be enough. I know people who make 7 figures annually who have trouble making ends meet (of course, they have major issues). It is always good advice to save as much as you can, as well as to ignore your inlaws. If you're setting yourself up for a jetset lifestyle it's a setup for FAIL anyway. The best thing I ever did was decide to avoid living on either coast. Everybody competes with each other, it's annoying as hell.

 

[path24]

90+ for one job. No more proof needed (actually this proof wasn't needed either). Hopefully the people running this "path show" are aware of this. Not that they would do anything (hence the current problem that has been going on for years and years). Maybe they'll hire the 90+ that didn't get the job.

 

[LADoc00]

If you start getting a taste for the fancy things no amount of salary will truly be enough.

QFT....that is the most sage advice I have ever seen Yaah post on SDN in how many years since I came here?

 

[Nilf]

QFT....that is the most sage advice I have ever seen Yaah post on SDN in how many years since I came here?

But but... I thought that reveling in luxury and laughing at those who cannot do it is what the life is all about!

 

[yaah]

Well, ASCP is having a "career fair" at the annual meeting

http://www.ascp.org/2009annualmeeting/career-fair.html

Looks like a mix of megalabs + some academic places primarily listed there. I am not going to that meeting, would be interesting to hear observations about this event.

 

[2121115]

Well, ASCP is having a "career fair" at the annual meeting

http://www.ascp.org/2009annualmeeting/career-fair.html

Looks like a mix of megalabs + some academic places primarily listed there. I am not going to that meeting, would be interesting to hear observations about this event.

Pretty much supports the idea that there may be plenty of jobs, just not the ones people want. Sure, if you want to work at a megalab or at a middle of nowhere academic place you can have your pick of the litter. Its also ironic that when you click on the link is shows a picture of the prof from Michigan who is projecting massive pathology resident shortages in her powerpoint talk - the president of the ASCP. No wonder that job market survey is what it is.

 

[Patho2009]

The best thing I ever did was decide to avoid living on either coast. Everybody competes with each other, it's annoying as hell.



This sentence has touched me very deep....you are absolutely right Yaah...It is the dirty competition..very dirty...and in the end you get nothing but the restlessness, stress, hatred, and then leaving to another place............! I love to be in a quiet place...just wishing!<!-- / message --><!-- SDNCODE: one sig per thread --><!-- /SDNCODE: one sig per thread -->

 

[BU Pathology]

One of the recurring myths on this board is that jobs are not available in desirable locations. The reality is that pathology trainees frequently locate where they have done their training. The specific data comes from the AAMC data which evaluated the proportion of active physicians who practice in the state where they trained. Compared to other specialties, pathologists are more likely to practice where they trained. If you do not count the primary care specialties, pathology is #5 out of 31 for practicing where they trained.

Students considering a career in pathology should not be discouraged by unfounded internet rumors. The specific data is found in Table 10, and the entire workbook may be found at this location:

https://services.aamc.org/publicati...ion=Product.displayForm&prd_id=160&prv_id=190

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Professor and Chair of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

 

[pathgeek42]

The last post quotes statistics from an August 2006 report which has data gathered between 1995 and jan/2006. This data is outdated to today's market and more importantly, it is before the 5 year to 4 year path training jump. It is truly a misguided attempt to sway people back into the "internet rumor" that there are plenty of good jobs out there supported largely by people who have jobs or are academic chairs. The gloomy reality as presented by real applicants and residents should outrank data from >3 years ago. There are people who land jobs and people who have difficulty landing jobs. What separates the two? Clearly it is not prowess under the scope because many people don't have the chance to get to the interview stage. Connections, being at the right place at the right time, and research seem to be the ways to finding a job. The average pathologist shouldn't have to be considered "above average or good" by internet forum responders to find a job. Are all family medicine practictioners above average clinicians? No, but I bet the majority have no problem finding a job. I agree that rumors should be quelled, but not by other rumors.

 

[Granular]

BU Pathology says "Students considering a career in pathology should not be discouraged by unfounded internet rumors."

Virtually everyone here has a bias (myself included); some people with good jobs think everything is OK. Some people looking for jobs think everything is OK, some do not. If you are a med student considering a career in pathology, you owe it to yourself to compare the pathology job prospects to those in other fields. If you ask your school's path attendings, you will hear that everything is great. If you ask a path fellow looking for a job, who recently attended a physician job fair with over 50 hospitals and health systems, you will hear that no one is interested in hiring a pathologist unless you are dermpath trained.
You need to ask the residents when you are not on path rotations how early and how often they have been recruited. Ask them what kinds of signing bonuses and stipends during residency provided by future employers they have been offered. Compare with path and you will be amazed. Your signout path skills are not in demand; your grossing skills are. Research this yourselves; don't blindly believe outdated and academic-provided data.

 

[ImmaculateTurd]

One of the recurring myths on this board is that jobs are not available in desirable locations. The reality is that pathology trainees frequently locate where they have done their training...Compared to other specialties, pathologists are more likely to practice where they trained.

There is a disconnect in the logic here. I don't know if working in the same locale where one did his/her training necessarily equates to the word "desirable." I think this line of thinking is a bit simplistic.

What if someone trained in NYC but wanted to relocate to let's say LA?

I understand that as we get older and family issues become more pressing, I can see how stability with respect to location is a good thing. But, there are plenty of desirable locations in the US and staying in the same city for post-training employment may not be desirable.

For me, at least, if I stayed in the same city where I trained, I would not be happy. I liked my training program but I despised the locals in my city. C'est la vie. I am happy to have had the opportunity and good fortune to move out of this city and go to a place that was more agreeable with me.

 

[cozmopak]

I've talked to many residents from top-tier pathology programs, and none of them have had trouble landing competitive fellowships that presumably will lead to lucrative jobs. So I guess it might matter where you train for pathology.

 

[ImmaculateTurd]

I've talked to many residents from top-tier pathology programs, and none of them have had trouble landing competitive fellowships that presumably will lead to lucrative jobs. So I guess it might matter where you train for pathology.

Landing fellowships means little. The word "presumably" is the key word in your post...it implies assumption. If the word "presumably" can be confidently omitted from your statement, and backed up by facts (not by anecdotal rumors, of course), then we're talking.

Food for thought: In a great job market, one should not need a "competitive fellowship" to land a good job.

Perspective check: One should do a fellowship to investigate an interest in and hone one's skills in a particular subspecialty, not necessarily to improve one's sense of future job security.

 

[2121115]

I've talked to many residents from top-tier pathology programs, and none of them have had trouble landing competitive fellowships that presumably will lead to lucrative jobs. So I guess it might matter where you train for pathology.

Pathology is a world of have's and have not's. Often, trainees from prestigious institutions are getting good jobs when they finish. However, the average grad from the average state university program or from one of the numerous community training programs faces a tremendous uphill battle because there are not enough jobs to go around for all of these trainees.

 

[JPR22]

OK, someone's been caught in a lie, or at least an attempt to distort the truth, whether intentional or not.

 

[yaah]

It's interesting in that table how all the ones at the bottom are surgical specialties. I would have guessed thoracic surgery is at the bottom. Those folks move around like no one else. I am never sure what they are looking for. One of the attendings where I went to med school lived 1,000 miles away and commuted every weekend back home. I could never figure it out - seems like everyone always needs more heart surgeons.

Back on topic though, is there anyone on this board currently who is looking for a job to start in July (or soon thereafter) 2010? We have a lot of people who know this guy who heard from a kid who's going with this girl who had trouble finding a job a couple years ago, but anyone currently? Or having success? I haven't talked much to too many current job applicants. The only two I have talked to, one already has a job and the other is going on two interviews this month. One of the interviews sounded like a mediocre job. I also have a facebook friend who should be looking but hasn't started yet.

I also heard from a friend who knows this guy who is on his third job in his third state in 5 years, having been fired from the first two for incompetence. Maybe he should post about how he keeps finding these jobs!

 

[wild0ne]

Food for thought: In a great job market, one should not need a "competitive fellowship" to land a good job.

Most people would agree that the Internal Medicine job market is "great" (PCPs are needed just about everywhere - less so probably in major cities, but that is a fairly universal characteristic). Yet, many graduates of IM go onto apply for "competitive" fellowships like GI, Cards, etc. to "land a good job", because practicing as a generalist is not appealing to most - just like practicing as a general pathologist (whatever that means these days).

It is ridiculous to assert that completing a fellowship does not favor "land[ing] a good job" - in most job markets. Using the word "need" is just setting up a straw man.

Perspective check: One should do a fellowship to investigate an interest in and hone one's skills in a particular subspecialty, not necessarily to improve one's sense of future job security.

Perhaps you need a different perspective. A full year or two to "investigate an interest in and hone one's skills"? Do you have a mortgage? Debt? Mouths to feed? Doing an elective or research should accomplish these things, not a fellowship. Fellowships are completed for a variety of reasons, of which "improving one's sense of job security" is just one; money, mobility, and interest are others.

I'm fairly early in my training. I agree that the job market may not be optimal. If you're arguing that the market is not so, your interests would be better served by well-reasoned arguments (look at exPCM's or Yaah's posts).

 

[2121115]

Most people would agree that the Internal Medicine job market is "great" (PCPs are needed just about everywhere - less so probably in major cities, but that is a fairly universal characteristic). Yet, many graduates of IM go onto apply for "competitive" fellowships like GI, Cards, etc. to "land a good job", because practicing as a generalist is not appealing to most - just like practicing as a general pathologist (whatever that means these days).

Couple of comments....

1. Practicing as a generalist in internal medicine is "not appealing to most" because of the $$$ involved. They do not do fellowships in order to land a respectable position, just one that pays more. Good private practice partnership track general medicine jobs where you are a respected member of a team are available everywhere.

2. Actually, practicing as a general pathologist *is* what is appealing to most pathology residents. Most of us will go on to practice some form of general surgpath. The irony is that in order to do this you have to do a subspecialty fellowship to "bring something additional to the table" in order to even get a general practice job.

 

[cookypuss3]

Pretty much supports the idea that there may be plenty of jobs, just not the ones people want. Sure, if you want to work at a megalab or at a middle of nowhere academic place you can have your pick of the litter. Its also ironic that when you click on the link is shows a picture of the prof from Michigan who is projecting massive pathology resident shortages in her powerpoint talk - the president of the ASCP. No wonder that job market survey is what it is.

Perhaps this is the issue? People think they are too good to be working for less than $200K/more than 40 hours a week/living in a certain area/seeing only a certain caseload. Perhaps unrealistic expectations has something to do with it. If you get real and realize not every job is utopia, maybe you'll get an "acceptable" job.

 

[ImmaculateTurd]

You misunderstand my post. I am actually asserting that the job market is not the greatest. That is why some people are tacking on fellowship after fellowship to increase one's competitiveness in this job market. Oh, and by the way, I actually agree with exPCM and yaah (and others you fail to mention) eye to eye on many points.

I never asserted that completing a fellowship does not favor landing a good job...are you insane? That's a bit counterintuitive

My assertion is that, in this job market, people do complete fellowships to try to get their feet in the door when it comes to good jobs. Community private practice jobs who DO seek generalist-minded folks who are BE/BC in AP and CP are asking for more than just basic training; instead, more and more, they are now dictating matters by asking for fellowship training as well. This is because there is an increased supply of graduates.

People seem to do fellowships not because they want to but because they feel they have to. This mentality leads some to pursue "competitive fellowships" outside one's interest area. For instance, I knew someone who was interested in gyne-path but felt that because gyne-path was not marketable, decided that derm-path was the way to go. And she hated looking at skin because of job issues. I felt bad for her because she is going to be less happy going down this road.

Hence, my assertion is that if the job market is GREAT, one should be able to land a good job easily with AP + CP + 0 fellowships (i.e., 4 yrs of training, not 5 or 6). Of course, this is a bit of a hyperbole (as was my last post) but I am trying to make a point with a little bit of shock value 🙂

The other point was responded to by 2121115 and I have nothing to add because I am in agreement with him/her. Especially point #2...

Most people would agree that the Internal Medicine job market is "great" (PCPs are needed just about everywhere - less so probably in major cities, but that is a fairly universal characteristic). Yet, many graduates of IM go onto apply for "competitive" fellowships like GI, Cards, etc. to "land a good job", because practicing as a generalist is not appealing to most - just like practicing as a general pathologist (whatever that means these days).

It is ridiculous to assert that completing a fellowship does not favor "land[ing] a good job" - in most job markets. Using the word "need" is just setting up a straw man.



Perhaps you need a different perspective. A full year or two to "investigate an interest in and hone one's skills"? Do you have a mortgage? Debt? Mouths to feed? Doing an elective or research should accomplish these things, not a fellowship. Fellowships are completed for a variety of reasons, of which "improving one's sense of job security" is just one; money, mobility, and interest are others.

I'm fairly early in my training. I agree that the job market may not be optimal. If you're arguing that the market is not so, your interests would be better served by well-reasoned arguments (look at exPCM's or Yaah's posts).

 

[Parts Unknown]

Back on topic though, is there anyone on this board currently who is looking for a job to start in July (or soon thereafter) 2010? We have a lot of people who know this guy who heard from a kid who's going with this girl who had trouble finding a job a couple years ago, but anyone currently? Or having success?

I've been on two interviews, and have been offered one job pending contract negotiations. I was hooked up with one group through a recruiter, and the other through a personal contact. The jobs themselves were fairly similar in many regards.

So that's pretty much it. For what it's worth, I didn't do a lot of hunting. I posted my CV online some while back (that's how the recruiter found me), and I touched base with a few groups on my own time, but I wasn't expecting to start applying hardcore until this month (and into November). As it turns out that won't be necessary.

Perhaps I'm just blessed.

 

[2121115]

Perhaps this is the issue? People think they are too good to be working for less than $200K/more than 40 hours a week/living in a certain area/seeing only a certain caseload. Perhaps unrealistic expectations has something to do with it. If you get real and realize not every job is utopia, maybe you'll get an "acceptable" job.

I'm sure the true problem here is that we all need to lower our standards and work for a corporate lab letting some MBA's profit off of our labor.🙄

This issue isn't necessarily how much you get paid. If reimbursements go down that is a separate issue. This issue is about autonomy, respect, and seeing the reimbursement for your work reflected in your take home pay rather than going to MBA's who do marketing and profit off your back.