Proper PLS logging

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PMG03470

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I could use some wisdom on proper logging for this procedure in PLS:

Performed cheilectomy and implanted arthroflex graft over metatarsal head which is anchored into bone. This is the technique guide: https://www.arthrex.com/es/recursos...arthroplasty-with-arthroflex-dermal-allograft

Unsure if I should be logging just cheilectomy or if this is sufficient for implant. Thank you all for your wisdom.

If anyone wants to we can keep this thread open for other PLS logging inquiries.

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On the one hand, you definitely performed an arthroplasty, and you definitely placed implants

On the other hand, there are no radiodense implants to be visualized on the post op XR so it will be best logged as a cheilectomy

On the other hand, look at your attending's op note and log it however the procedure name is because it doesn't really matter in the big picture of things
 
So Im in the process of submitting cases for ABFAS certification in foot and RF/Ankle and I went back and checked all of my cases and logging in PLS and realized that there were 5-10 cases that I logged incorrectly. Logging correctly now will save you time and prevent you from failing your ABFAS cert if you do plan on going that route. If you are unsure about anything just ask your colleagues. I also emailed ABFAS when I was unsure about logging too. All the docs I work with are ABFAS cert so its nice being able to ask them about logging and the whole cert process.
 
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On the one hand, you definitely performed an arthroplasty, and you definitely placed implants

On the other hand, there are no radiodense implants to be visualized on the post op XR so it will be best logged as a cheilectomy

On the other hand, look at your attending's op note and log it however the procedure name is because it doesn't really matter in the big picture of things

I am the attending I am not a resident. I am logging in PLS for ABFAS cert.
 
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So Im in the process of submitting cases for ABFAS certification in foot and RF/Ankle and I went back and checked all of my cases and logging in PLS and realized that there were 5-10 cases that I logged incorrectly. Logging correctly now will save you time and prevent you from failing your ABFAS cert if you do plan on going that route. If you are unsure about anything just ask your colleagues. I also emailed ABFAS when I was unsure about logging too. All the docs I work with are ABFAS cert so its nice being able to ask them about logging and the whole cert process.

Yeah I agree, this is why I asked here. Unfortunately I do a lot of cases that my colleagues don’t do and I don’t really have a good point of contact for this type of guidance.
 
I have emailed ABFAS with logging case questions and they have been very helpful in getting back to me about them. I think it was a John Venson that emailed me back. But ya, I would just email them so you know you did it
 
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Dr Venson is actually pretty responsive from my experience too. I’ve called him on the phone regarding these questions before and he doesn’t seem to mind helping out.
Seconded. Normally I'd say no it's just a cheilectomy, but with this you are reaming, and putting a couple bone anchors in as well.
 
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This is a cheilectomy.
It's just a very expensive way of doing capsular interposition (cheilectomy + interpositional arthroplasty).

This procedure has been done awhile (for better or for worse).
It was done freehand for years using GraftJacket or similar nonsense.
Arthrex is a good company overall, but this is one of their duds.
If you want to do this procedure, just take out much more bone (think Valente "V" cheilectomy, and stuff the pt capsule or small tendon auto or allograft in there). None of them are good for any reasonably young or high activity demand pts... injects and carbon fiber plate insoles... then do fusions.

Don't worry, you don't want many/any first MPJ implants on your logs anyways. It's not a good look. :)
You will get plenty of first ray diversity for boards with just Lapidus, MPJ fusion for HAV, MPJ fusion for HR, cheilectomy, amp.
 
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This is a cheilectomy.
It's just a very expensive way of doing capsular interposition (cheilectomy + interpositional arthroplasty).

This procedure has been done awhile (for better or for worse).
It was done freehand for years using GraftJacket or similar nonsense.
Arthrex is a good company overall, but this is one of their duds.
If you want to do this procedure, just take out much more bone (think Valente "V" cheilectomy, and stuff the pt capsule or small tendon auto or allograft in there). None of them are good for any reasonably young or high activity demand pts... injects and carbon fiber plate insoles... then do fusions.

Don't worry, you don't want many/any first MPJ implants on your logs anyways. It's not a good look. :)
You will get plenty of first ray diversity for boards with just Lapidus, MPJ fusion for HAV, MPJ fusion for HR, cheilectomy, amp.

Yeah I agree, I honestly just wanted to try it out and see how the patient did. She was refusing fusion although that’s really what she needed. Cheilectomy alone wouldn’t have done anything for her so I have this a shot. To my surprise she is very happy and already with 1/10 pain compare to her 8/10 pre-op and I did the case 9 weeks ago.

I met diversity and case numbers I already have double what I need. I’m just going to wait 1 more year because I had some family stuff going in this year and wasn’t prepared to apply for cert yet. Thanks for your advice.
 
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Yeah I agree, I honestly just wanted to try it out and see how the patient did. She was refusing fusion although that’s really what she needed. Cheilectomy alone wouldn’t have done anything for her so I have this a shot. To my surprise she is very happy and already with 1/10 pain compare to her 8/10 pre-op and I did the case 9 weeks ago.

I met diversity and case numbers I already have double what I need. I’m just going to wait 1 more year because I had some family stuff going in this year and wasn’t prepared to apply for cert yet. Thanks for your advice.
Yeah, cheilectomies work great for a year or two or occasionally 5 or rarely 10+. Implants can too. The problem is that people live longer than that.
...Follow-up is the enemy of "good" surgery.

I am against doing surgery that is a temp fix (always aim for long term results and last invasive procedure for that problem), but if you want to do joint salvage rigidus surgery, the key is not burning too much bone for the inevitable fusion.
That is why implants are so lame... nearly all will require bone graft, most even ream the medullary canals that are the main blood supply to the fusion site and the graft.

I think checilectomies might work awhile for early limitus, but those people who'd be fair candidates honesly are not even making a doc appointment - much less thinking surgery. They just crunch ibuprofen or push through the discomfort.

I probably do a 20-to-1 of MPJ fusion to checilectomy (no implants).
I have fused far more failed cheilectomies than I have done primary cheilectomies. Some fail within a year or two (yet orig surgeon probably thinks they did great???).
If I do checilectomy, I do mine super aggressive Valente (basically just leave plantar third or quarter of the joint - so that some DBM putty dorsal and a good plate will still fuse it later). That is pretty rare and usually only for low activitiy retirees.

...You have to just let the people walk away who don't understand or won't do what they need (fusion, amp, proper recovery course, weight loss, better glu control, whatever).
They have unrealistic expectations, just like the ones who read there is 2 week bunion surgery recovery on insta or want to do bilateral flat foot recons. It's tough to "lose the patient" since podiatry is saturated and patients are at a premium, but when it comes to patient trying to dictate or compromise doc decision on expensive and invasive procedures, just cut them loose. Even if their surgery turns out fair or well on XR, they are unlikely to be happy. They will fail or need another surgery soon enough, and revision is rough and higher legal risk also. So, personally, I avoid staged or temporary or set-up surgery whenever I can (for elective stuff).

Fwiw, on MPJ fusions (or ankle or STJ or whatever) I just tell them "fusion is 'what your body is doing naturally anyways... throwing up bone spurs, less and less motion, more and more inflammation.' We are just expediting that process to relieve pain and making sure it ends in best position. Fusion is durable and very functional." If they're educated, you can also show them the abstract (any of dozens of them, I use JBJS) with fusion vs implant results and revision rates.
 
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...Follow-up is the enemy of "good" surgery.
I like that phrase. Also, Facebook is the enemy of good surgery.
 
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Is Gastroc recession logged as tendon lengthening?
 
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Is Gastroc recession logged as tendon lengthening?
Yeah bro how you think they got all them rearfoot procedures....it wasnt from triples

Edit wasn't not was lol
 
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Yeah bro how you think they got all them rearfoot procedures....it was from triples
Yeah, brah.... typical podiatry program. MAVs= residency certificate degrees.

"RRA numbers" =
10 gastroc recession
10 de/reattach Haglund
7 TAL (3 stab type, with TMA or Chopart amps)
5 Kidner
5 subtalar arthroeresis
5 Chopart amp or wacky heel amps
4 Charcot "fusion" cases... that went to BKA
4 "plastic surgery" flaps for rearfoot wounds... that went to BKA
3 ankle scope/stab (resident got to help with the prep and hold the camera for a minute for the attending)
2 ankle fractures (retracted for ortho, who probably mistook DPM resident for a scrub tech in training)
1 Achilles rupture (ditto above)
1 "calc fracture ORIF" that was a pathologic fracture from osteomyelitis, "limb salvage" attending put on ex fix... and went to BKA
1 flatfoot recon (retracted for program's only podiatry "RRA attending" and each resident scrubbed claimed a procedure)
____
58 "RRA procedure first assist" and plenty to get that PMSR/RRA certificate :)

...I am pretty sure accredited ortho F&A program volumes are very similar?
 
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Yeah, brah.... typical podiatry program. MAVs= residency certificate degrees.

"RRA numbers" =
10 gastroc recession
10 de/reattach Haglund
7 TAL (3 stab type, with TMA or Chopart amps)
5 Kidner
5 subtalar arthroeresis
5 Chopart amp or wacky heel amps
4 Charcot "fusion" cases... that went to BKA
4 "plastic surgery" flaps for rearfoot wounds... that went to BKA
3 ankle scope/stab (resident got to help with the prep and hold the camera for a minute for the attending)
2 ankle fractures (retracted for ortho, who probably mistook DPM resident for a scrub tech in training)
1 Achilles rupture (ditto above)
1 "calc fracture ORIF" that was a pathologic fracture from osteomyelitis, "limb salvage" attending put on ex fix... and went to BKA
1 flatfoot recon (retracted for program's only podiatry "RRA attending" and each resident scrubbed claimed a procedure)
____
58 "RRA procedure first assist" and plenty to get that PMSR/RRA certificate :)

...I am pretty sure accredited ortho F&A program volumes are very similar?

You admittedly made up these numbers, and it’s your opinion and protected free speech to spread misinformation, although not ethical or professional.

And look at general ortho numbers in the F&A, yes they’re the same or lower than pod numbers. Those are just the facts.
 
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You admittedly made up these numbers, and it’s your opinion and protected free speech to spread misinformation, although not ethical or professional.

And look at general ortho numbers in the F&A, yes they’re the same or lower than pod numbers. Those are just the facts.
Is this a joke? Are you talking toe amps and hammertoes and TMAs as "numbers in the F&A"?

You think general ortho numbers on real RRA (ankle fractures, midfoot fractures, fusions, Achilles rupture) are simliar to DPM programs? Really?

Have you ever seen an ortho who can't do ankle fractures pretty fast and well? They learn that stuff by 2nd or 3rd year of 5 year residency (plus many more reps in fellowship if trauma, sports, F&A, etc)
What about a DPM who can't do ankle fx or RRA? I think we all know a ton. The podiatry residencies with good numbers for real RRA are pretty rare.
 
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Yeah bro how you think they got all them rearfoot procedures....it wasnt from triples

Edit wasn't not was lol

I’m not in residency. I’m logging for board cert. I would hate to fail cert because I logged a procedure incorrectly. To be honest I’m not even going for rear foot because I don’t see enough of that pathology in my office, so I don’t care about those numbers but is there a more appropriate way to log it? Or is it simply tendon lengthening?
 
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...I’m logging for board cert. ... ...is there a more appropriate way to log it? Or is it simply tendon lengthening?
He told you the correct info.
Gastroc recession (any method) is "5.1.3 tendon lengthening involving the midfoot, rearfoot, ankle, or leg".

...To be honest I’m not even going for rear foot because I don’t see enough of that pathology in my office...
Welcome to the club.
 
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I’m generally team Lee but Feli’s residency RRA breakdown is pretty dang accurate for a lot of programs.

I’d even dare to say that post is a hall of fame contender due to the absolute accuracy of it.

On a side note I do agree with amps and TMAs being included in real F&A because the reality is that is what most of us will be doing as podiatrists especially if taking call. And almost all MDs and DOs don’t give a care about how great our bunions or fusions are, they want to know we can prevent a BKA or drop a white count after a debridement/amp. Or chop toes and work with vascular surgeons for the real big money cases. And honestly they love us for that.

The FM doc referring a bunion patient to you couldn’t care less if you have a perfect X-ray and fixation. If the patient follows up with them and says their toe still hurts or that they’re concerned it’s still swollen a couple weeks post op that will make you look bad. If they show up without a toe when they referred the patient to you for osteo that makes you seem capable to them.
 
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I’m not in residency. I’m logging for board cert. I would hate to fail cert because I logged a procedure incorrectly. To be honest I’m not even going for rear foot because I don’t see enough of that pathology in my office, so I don’t care about those numbers but is there a more appropriate way to log it? Or is it simply tendon lengthening?
But sir, that is not what the schools said when they took your money. BIGTIME foot and ankle SURGEON
 
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Not correctly (4.19), no... but plenty of programs which struggle for RRA log them as Achilles repair (5.1.6 or 5.3.1 or similar).
I'll vouch for this. I think every haglund's we did in residency we "found a tear" intraoperatively.
 
Where's @RollingstonePod ?

I e-mailed ABFAS about this years ago when I asked about how to log my TALs and gastrocs. Got a response from John Venson:

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