I made the mistake of applying to way to many schools, 72 programs (all except for 2 in the midwest and east coast) in total!! And I am trying to decide which interviews I should start canceling. How many days before an interview should an applicant cancel? And what is the proper way to do it, through email or phone?
Proper time to cancel interview
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IMMEDIATELY. by phone. and with palpable regret. be very very careful b/c word spreads in the small surgical world. the sooner you do it the more likely they'll be able to find someone to fill it.
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Along those same lines, how much time can a candidate take to respond to an interview invite? Many of us apply to more programs than we can go interview at, and we often don't hear from our top choices until later. So, do you wait a week or two before responding? Or do you decline an interview offer at a program you prefer just because a lot of your available time off to interview has been filled with other programs?
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If you wait a "week or two" to respond, you may find that spot isn't open anymore. Many programs invite more applicants than they have positions for - so it becomes "first come, first served." THIS is why you want a smart phone during 4th year so you can be checking, and responding to, invites immediately.
What you do is up to you, but in most cases if you are interested in a program (and you presumably are), and they offer an interview you ACCEPT. You don't wait around to see if someone else invites you to the dance.
But unlike the dance (where you dance with who brung ya), if you have a later invite to someplace you prefer, it is acceptable to cancel the first as long as you give them enough notice so that they can fill the spot.
Please not simply not show up - PDs have been known to call your medical school Dean and let them know of your bad behavior - and please don't call after hours on Friday night for a Monday morning interview invite.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with an email decline since presumably most programs contacted you that way in the first place. If they don't respond that they received the email, however, you should IMHO followup with a phone call.
Thanks for the advice!
and it wasn't that big of a deal. My student loans are already over 120 Gs, whats an extra 1200 bucks in the grand scheme of things. I am actually anticipating spending an extra 2000 bucks on interviews, and then there is that euro trip before starting residency
and it wasn't that big of a deal. My student loans are already over 120 Gs, whats an extra 1200 bucks in the grand scheme of things. I am actually anticipating spending an extra 2000 bucks on interviews, and then there is that euro trip before starting residency
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I applied to 73; now, not because I'm rich but to improve my chances as my step 1 score is not stellar.
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I applied to 73; now, not because I'm rich but to improve my chances as my step 1 score is not stellar.
I applied to 84 for the same reason. I'm not rich either, but I want to match, not scramble. It's either pony up the money if you really want to do General Surgery or do something else. $1725 sucked.
Holy crap 84 is a huge number.
In hindsight, was that too many, or does is seem like the right move?
Honestly, some people (IMGs, etc) need to apply to 80 programs. Others are just super nervous after hearing a hundred horror stories here on SDN.
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Well with 6 rejections in hand and only 1 interview lined up...seems to be the right move. I figure I'll need AT LEAST 12-15 interviews to match (maybe more since I'm not competitive), so I may need all of those 84 apps to get to that point. We'll see over the next couple of months.
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The proper time to cancel is as soon as you know that you aren't coming. That is: the minute that you realize that you are going to go to a different interview or that you can't get away from your rotation to go, etc.
Cancelling early does a number of good things:
1) It makes you polite: if we can fill the spot, there will be absolutely no hard feelings. It is not that uncommon to have people waitlisting for a specific date that is already full. By being able to offer a spot to someone else, we will be satisfied and probably not remember you over the long term
2) It helps your fellow student: If you can't use the spot, let someone go. Everyone needs a spot. Plus, on purely selfish terms, maybe the person that you free the spot up for will love the program you are turning down, and get out of the way of you getting the spot you want at some other program.
When is too late to cancel? It's better to call ahead even if it's the day of your interview, then to just not show up. Everyone has stories of having a flight cancelled, etc. If you call and have a good reason, you might even be able to reschedule to a different day if we have a slot available and you sound sincere. However, if you jerk us around, it won't be appreciated. To run an interview day, multiple faculty cancel their operative or clinic day to interview candidates. Please be courteous of their willingness to do so.
Cancelling early does a number of good things:
1) It makes you polite: if we can fill the spot, there will be absolutely no hard feelings. It is not that uncommon to have people waitlisting for a specific date that is already full. By being able to offer a spot to someone else, we will be satisfied and probably not remember you over the long term
2) It helps your fellow student: If you can't use the spot, let someone go. Everyone needs a spot. Plus, on purely selfish terms, maybe the person that you free the spot up for will love the program you are turning down, and get out of the way of you getting the spot you want at some other program.
When is too late to cancel? It's better to call ahead even if it's the day of your interview, then to just not show up. Everyone has stories of having a flight cancelled, etc. If you call and have a good reason, you might even be able to reschedule to a different day if we have a slot available and you sound sincere. However, if you jerk us around, it won't be appreciated. To run an interview day, multiple faculty cancel their operative or clinic day to interview candidates. Please be courteous of their willingness to do so.
I am going to cancel more interviews later on today or tomorrow. But before I do; has anyone heard anything good or bad about: Stamford. SIU, UMKC, NY Methodist, Beth Israel - Albert Einstein, Maimonides, University of Toledo, Albert Einstein Medical Center, or Penn State?
I want to probably keep 2 of those programs, trying to pick which ones. I have no geographic preference; just want a place that will help you get a fellowship after youre done.
I want to probably keep 2 of those programs, trying to pick which ones. I have no geographic preference; just want a place that will help you get a fellowship after youre done.
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All I know about Albert Einstein Medical Center in Philadelphia is that you will see EVERYTHING. You will also see a lot of good trauma... penetrating and operative instead of blunt/nonoperative. I've heard great things about the surgery program from a couple residents there in other programs. Residents get to operate a lot. Hospital isn't in a great part of Philadelphia, you likely wouldn't live next door, but it isn't hard to get to a decent area in 10-15 minutes. That's all I've got.
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The statements that I have highlighted seem to imply threats that there will be repercussions for cancelling at the last minute. That's simply not the case. There are no repercussions to applicants for cancelling late, or even no-showing.
That said, I agree that it is good form to cancel as soon as you realize you will not be going to the interview. I also agree that no-showing is a no-no.
However, do NOT believe the hype though that you are committing some egregious, life-altering crime by cancelling at the last minute. You don't owe these programs anything yet, as you have not signed anything. The residency programs need you just as badly as you think that you need them. Don't buy into the whole supplicant/applicant thing yet again.
People who suggest that there will be ominous consequences for cancelling or no-showing, are just trying to inject fear into the process. Last minute cancelling is part of the process, and programs know this. The smart ones will allow for this by overbooking the interview days. As an applicant, don't feel badly about changing your plans at any time.
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I guess people tend to forget about their fellow medical students also applying to general surgery residencies. The lack of empathy is glaringly obvious.
Thanks for the headsup on the albert einstein program. I am actually leaning toward keeping this one and the penn state one.
And I agree with the lack of empathy among med students. I've stopped hanging out socially with med students for this same reason!
And I agree with the lack of empathy among med students. I've stopped hanging out socially with med students for this same reason!
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Again, this is anecdotal advice (whether or not SDN can give u good advice on programs has been recently hashed out so that being said)...
BI-albert Einstein does not have the best reputation. I know people who intereviewed there and they seemed relatively unhappy. lots of IMGs, not a lot of camraderie.
SIU: very well known chair who is a powerhouse in surgical education. You have to be ok living in a semirural area, hours from a big city. but it is a huge college town. however, i seem to recall that siu was the only program with a categorical spot to scramble into the year i matched.
BI-albert Einstein does not have the best reputation. I know people who intereviewed there and they seemed relatively unhappy. lots of IMGs, not a lot of camraderie.
SIU: very well known chair who is a powerhouse in surgical education. You have to be ok living in a semirural area, hours from a big city. but it is a huge college town. however, i seem to recall that siu was the only program with a categorical spot to scramble into the year i matched.
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I know surg in person and I doubt that was his intent to imply that there are "consequences" to applicants who don't show or who cancel at the last minute.
Who is suggesting such things? You are confusing no shows with people who cancel. And let's define "late minute". Day before or day of? That's unacceptable IMHO. Week before is ok - after all, you can't tell me that programs are offering invites the day before and someone suddenly changes their plans. Most students are holding on to multiple invites and simply cannot make up their mind where to go when they cancel at the last minute (weather and other travel related issues notwithstanding).
Consequences? I HAVE seen a PD call an applicant's PD when they no showed for an interview. As a matter of fact, I recall someone here on SDN posting about that happening to them. After all, it looks bad for a certain school if their students get a rep for not showing.
Nonethless, its not life shattering and there are generally no "ominous consequences" to be had if you have to cancel. Not showing is rude.
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I was completed my residency at one of the above.
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I think you missed the point. This isn't about implying "ominous consequences." (and by the way at least the statement in #1 was supposed to be reassuring for the neurotic amongst the SDNers, guess I underestimated the paranoia lens on here!)
Seriously, it isn't the end of the world if you miss or cancel, but I am a little tired of people acting like interviewing for a job (in this case residency position) isn't a professional interaction. That means, treating each other with respect. Part of that is cancelling when you know you aren't coming for a planned reason. That is totally different from missing it due to an unavoidable situation (travel snafu, family emergency, etc.). However, it is rude to me and to my program to just not say anything and not show. The earlier you do so, the easier it is on us to get someone else in.
I don't have to dole out "repercussions," but sticking out in a memorable and egregrious way (such as a person who rescheduled multiple times, asked for a special date, was accommodated and then still didn't show), might end up in conversation someday when I happen to talk to your school's PD/chair if they ask me what I thought of their students (usually the next time I bump into them at a meeting, not going to go out of my way to call someone unless it was offensive in some way). It also goes the other way too, BTW, just had a great conversation with someone at ACS about a visiting sub-I that someone sent us who did a great job, told him they'd be a fool to let them go elsewhere if they wanted to stay.
You would be surprised though at how many people can't act with the basic common courtesies, such as treating my staff politely when they call for a favor (e.g. trying to have their day end earlier so they can leave early), calling ahead to let us know you aren't coming or will be late in arriving. And no, I don't think that programs should overschedule. What am I supposed to do if everyone shows up? Send someone home and "bump" them like an airline does? Provide them with spur of the moment interviewers who haven't had a chance to review their applications? Give everyone fewer interviewers so I can spread them out over more people, disadvantaging the whole batch? That's ridiculous on the program's part and any program that did something like that should be shunned IMO. The good programs put a lot of effort into designing an interview day that hopefully makes it possible for you do understand what our program is about and for us to try to guess if you would be a good fit for us. We don't always succeed, but it doesn't mean we aren't working at it actively.
I don't think it is asking a lot for people to call us if they KNOW they aren't coming WHEN they know, even if it is last minute. By all means, you should change your plans at any point that it feels necessary. I don't want someone to come interview who doesn't have their heart in it, but just let us know! Is that too much to ask? But no, to clarify, I am not implying that people should have any "fear" about cancelling or rescheduling. Do what you need to do to ensure that you end up happy on match day. That should be your first priority, period. I will find someone pretty good to fill my slots almost always, and going 1 further down my list isn't a huge deal. On the other hand, if you skip an interview at your dream program merely because you feel guilty about not going to an already agreed upon interview at some place you don't want to be at anyway, you might miss out on a life changing experience. Make the change, you are doing both the program and yourself a favor.
Seriously, it isn't the end of the world if you miss or cancel, but I am a little tired of people acting like interviewing for a job (in this case residency position) isn't a professional interaction. That means, treating each other with respect. Part of that is cancelling when you know you aren't coming for a planned reason. That is totally different from missing it due to an unavoidable situation (travel snafu, family emergency, etc.). However, it is rude to me and to my program to just not say anything and not show. The earlier you do so, the easier it is on us to get someone else in.
I don't have to dole out "repercussions," but sticking out in a memorable and egregrious way (such as a person who rescheduled multiple times, asked for a special date, was accommodated and then still didn't show), might end up in conversation someday when I happen to talk to your school's PD/chair if they ask me what I thought of their students (usually the next time I bump into them at a meeting, not going to go out of my way to call someone unless it was offensive in some way). It also goes the other way too, BTW, just had a great conversation with someone at ACS about a visiting sub-I that someone sent us who did a great job, told him they'd be a fool to let them go elsewhere if they wanted to stay.
You would be surprised though at how many people can't act with the basic common courtesies, such as treating my staff politely when they call for a favor (e.g. trying to have their day end earlier so they can leave early), calling ahead to let us know you aren't coming or will be late in arriving. And no, I don't think that programs should overschedule. What am I supposed to do if everyone shows up? Send someone home and "bump" them like an airline does? Provide them with spur of the moment interviewers who haven't had a chance to review their applications? Give everyone fewer interviewers so I can spread them out over more people, disadvantaging the whole batch? That's ridiculous on the program's part and any program that did something like that should be shunned IMO. The good programs put a lot of effort into designing an interview day that hopefully makes it possible for you do understand what our program is about and for us to try to guess if you would be a good fit for us. We don't always succeed, but it doesn't mean we aren't working at it actively.
I don't think it is asking a lot for people to call us if they KNOW they aren't coming WHEN they know, even if it is last minute. By all means, you should change your plans at any point that it feels necessary. I don't want someone to come interview who doesn't have their heart in it, but just let us know! Is that too much to ask? But no, to clarify, I am not implying that people should have any "fear" about cancelling or rescheduling. Do what you need to do to ensure that you end up happy on match day. That should be your first priority, period. I will find someone pretty good to fill my slots almost always, and going 1 further down my list isn't a huge deal. On the other hand, if you skip an interview at your dream program merely because you feel guilty about not going to an already agreed upon interview at some place you don't want to be at anyway, you might miss out on a life changing experience. Make the change, you are doing both the program and yourself a favor.
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