Proposed law allows PA's to supervise other PA's?

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drusso

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"Replaces the PA requirement for a practice agreement with a supervising physician with a Collaboration Agreement. The collaboration agreement does not assign supervisory responsibility and allows a PA to enter into a collaboration agreement with another PA who has at least 10,000 hours of clinical experience."

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Wow the ship is going down fast


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I knew before I even clicked on this that it had to be in Oregon. Their legislators are partaking in too many dabs.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
I knew before I even clicked on this that it had to be in Oregon. Their legislators are partaking in too many dabs.

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I beg to differ, most of us know what we know/dont know and that's why we discuss the case with our physician colleagues or refer them out. Trust me my friends, PAs are not your enemy. These bills only allow us to compete for employment with NPs. Most doctors are employed by health systems and are no longer the ones hiring PAs, its someone in administration. The restrictive PA subpar legislature makes it a hiring burden to employ a PA vs NP. Ive seen a landslide of PA jobs turn into NP only jobs due to the administrative burdens. PAs support physicians so please Support PA legislature, we are your PArtners in medicine.
 
I beg to differ, most of us know what we know/dont know and that's why we discuss the case with our physician colleagues or refer them out. Trust me my friends, PAs are not your enemy. These bills only allow us to compete for employment with NPs. Most doctors are employed by health systems and are no longer the ones hiring PAs, its someone in administration. The restrictive PA subpar legislature makes it a hiring burden to employ a PA vs NP. Ive seen a landslide of PA jobs turn into NP only jobs due to the administrative burdens. PAs support physicians so please Support PA legislature, we are your PArtners in medicine.

then why do you need other PAs to supervise you? I understand all general the points you have made regarding employment, but how does that apply to this specific Oregon statute?
 
I can completely understand how upsetting it is to see the comparison of (my dr,)Is a nurse practitioner. It does in fact mislead one to believe the training is equal.
Again, I ask that you Please do not lump PAs in w the aggressive nature of the ANA. PAs are trained in medicine by physicians and we also understand the benefit of your extensive education.
As far as a PA supervising another PA. I'll give an example of how/why that needs to be worded like that. If you are going to have a PA oversee the training of newly employed PA grad, the PA needs an "independent" license to be responsible for the actions of training this new grad in the position of a PA. A doc doesnt always have time to train and/or there are multiple docs (I once had about 50 supervising physicians!) So that wording will give an APP/midlevel provider department the ability to provide some continuity in training. That wording will lead a PA into a PA position wo conveying legal responsibily to the physician. A dr can supervise/train a dr, a nurse can supervise/ train a nurse. Why cant a PA supervise a PA? It affords us structure similar to residents. The attending is still the full fledged licensed physician, the PA maybe one of say 20 years experience such as myself, has the ability to supervise the new grad and direct them into the roll of a PA. I've been around the block. Trust me, some days I think "I should have went to med school, some days I think, thank god I'm not the dr. But every single decision I make as a PA is as a PA.

PAs are very well trained in their limitations and I agree on a fellowship or a short leash for a couple years. While I'm educating students i always emphasize the fact that because you've seen it doesnt mean you can do it. I also teach them how to make a judgement on whether they should treat a condition, rx a med, do a procedure, etc. I have them ask themselves 3 things. Have I been formally trained? Would a PA in a similar practice do this? Am I equipped to manage the complications and if not, who? If a PA cant answer yes, then they shouldnt be doing it. PA programs, myself, and experience teach PAs what their boundries are and we do know when to defer/refer.

We really need support guys. Honestly, docs should really support PAs to help preserve medicine and their own practice as well. "Independent" type PA practice just keeps us employed through hospital systems. I'd say 99.99% of the PAs I speak to, do not want to break ties w drs. Why would we? Who wants to hang a shingle, nearly every doc I know is part of a health system because you cant make it in private practice. However I do see alot of posts by PAs on forums saying they cant get jobs now. Ive seen a landslide of PA jobs turn NP only. Not due to training, but legislature. All I ask is that if you have an opportunity to support us, please consider these situations and write an email to your lawmaker in support of it. PAs are definitely not the enemy.
 
I can completely understand how upsetting it is to see the comparison of (my dr,)Is a nurse practitioner. It does in fact mislead one to believe the training is equal.
Again, I ask that you Please do not lump PAs in w the aggressive nature of the ANA. PAs are trained in medicine by physicians and we also understand the benefit of your extensive education.
As far as a PA supervising another PA. I'll give an example of how/why that needs to be worded like that. If you are going to have a PA oversee the training of newly employed PA grad, the PA needs an "independent" license to be responsible for the actions of training this new grad in the position of a PA. A doc doesnt always have time to train and/or there are multiple docs (I once had about 50 supervising physicians!) So that wording will give an APP/midlevel provider department the ability to provide some continuity in training. That wording will lead a PA into a PA position wo conveying legal responsibily to the physician. A dr can supervise/train a dr, a nurse can supervise/ train a nurse. Why cant a PA supervise a PA? It affords us structure similar to residents. The attending is still the full fledged licensed physician, the PA maybe one of say 20 years experience such as myself, has the ability to supervise the new grad and direct them into the roll of a PA. I've been around the block. Trust me, some days I think "I should have went to med school, some days I think, thank god I'm not the dr. But every single decision I make as a PA is as a PA.

PAs are very well trained in their limitations and I agree on a fellowship or a short leash for a couple years. While I'm educating students i always emphasize the fact that because you've seen it doesnt mean you can do it. I also teach them how to make a judgement on whether they should treat a condition, rx a med, do a procedure, etc. I have them ask themselves 3 things. Have I been formally trained? Would a PA in a similar practice do this? Am I equipped to manage the complications and if not, who? If a PA cant answer yes, then they shouldnt be doing it. PA programs, myself, and experience teach PAs what their boundries are and we do know when to defer/refer.

We really need support guys. Honestly, docs should really support PAs to help preserve medicine and their own practice as well. "Independent" type PA practice just keeps us employed through hospital systems. I'd say 99.99% of the PAs I speak to, do not want to break ties w drs. Why would we? Who wants to hang a shingle, nearly every doc I know is part of a health system because you cant make it in private practice. However I do see alot of posts by PAs on forums saying they cant get jobs now. Ive seen a landslide of PA jobs turn NP only. Not due to training, but legislature. All I ask is that if you have an opportunity to support us, please consider these situations and write an email to your lawmaker in support of it. PAs are definitely not the enemy.
why are you all having a difficult time getting jobs when one of the biggest midlevel arguments for independent practice is to help fill in for the lack of providers in underserved areas. I thought there was a huge shortage that needed to be addressed. Surely there must be enough jobs. I mean that's why PA and NP schools started forming at exponential rates right?
 
Well that's a good question. As stated above. The market in alot of areas is being oversaturated with NPs. Yes there is a need, but Due to the disparity in legislature and ease of hiring NPs, PAs are being excluded from alot of positions. I am personally working, but if you check our American academy discussions, there are alarming things happening due to the legislative burden. Since most PAs, as are docs and Np's, are regulated within their hospital systems and work with multiple physicians, why tie a physician to be legally responsible for PA care? We have a limited level of practice compared to physicians and when we are in the system, we collaborate with PAs, RN, techs, NPs and physicians. We can discuss little nuances all day. But fact is, these are APP/midlevel jobs, they will be filled by NPs or PAs , if you are upset about NP comparisons to MDs, why dont you support PAs who support the Docs? I fear the backlash on will cause some docs to shoot themselves in the foot. Would u rather have a staff of PAs who value the collaboration and know when to discuss cases. Or would u rather have an entire hospital of Nurses/Np w their own agenda? I'm not saying all NPs are like that, or nurses but they definitely have a pissing match w MD/DOs. I'm just here to educate and hopefully enlighten some docs who may decide to support us. Like I said, an RN can supervise a new RN and they dont step outside their scope, MD can supervise a new MD, why limit us to only be supervised by an MD, DO or podiatrist? If weve learned it, why can't se teach and supervise s junior PA and us old guys can cautiously indoctrinate them into our firm beliefs and great midlevel training? Weve been around 50+ years, we pledged to collaborate. I'm not sure you guys are seeing it the effects on PAs and will have on docs. Please take a minute, contemplate the support we give, our ideals, the long term effects on docs and on in the disadvantage we have in competing with NPs. If we dont have the support, it really empowers nursing even further. Numbers =$$$ and $ = political clout. Anyone guess what's next? I'd bet you we have nurse surgeons in 10 -15 years. I know hospitals that credentialed midwives to do crash c-sections... what's next? Hysterectomy for acreta? Why not? Then why not a hysterectomy,? So why not support us, allow you guys to have more time for advanced cases and if you want to keep that kind of thing from happening. We are really the only profession that has red tape that is destroying it. A PA, is not going to take these jobs from a doc, it's not in our mindset/core value. Dont shoot yourself in the foot guys. I'm usually pretty good at seeing the big picture and momentum is nearly insurmountable.

I'm not bashing nurses, my daughter is a nurse and she will be a fantastic NP. Great NPs still value collaboration.

Honestly, what are the outcomes? Oppress us from competing for positions? Then what? The NPs will have our positions and you really dont have much say in that? They will do what the e been doing. Say its nursing and govern themselves within the hospitals. Completely seperate from the docs. Credentialing themselves w their own committee as independent practitioners. ...or support PAs who will have an independent license but go through the hospital credentialing committee? A hospital near me just had a big war on allowing NPs to be admitting providers. We need the law to get us parity for jobs, but then manage our scope of practice within the facility.

I also once did a CME on medical malpractice. Do you know that the reason it was so hard to get tort reform? Because on average an attorney donates 1000.00 per year to their PAC's. Physicians? 7.00. SEVEN dollars. I've donated to the AMA in the past. I donate to many states and organizations. I'm passionate about our ties and it actually physically hurts my soul when I read how disgusted/anger/ and contempt for the NP advancements are taken out on PAs. In my opinion We need each other.

Again, just food for thought.

God bless
 
Sorry for some of the syntax /spelling. Typing this on my phone wo glasses. Not really proofreading it..
 
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