- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
- 3,378
- Reaction score
- 391
Why are you guys debating this stuff with a first year optometry student?
Most comprehensive ophthalmologists do zero injections and few lasers despite adequate training for both. The problem is the economics. How many OD's do you think will actually being lasers and injections?
What percentage?
If these lasers are anything like other 'lasers' I've encountered/read about in clinical medicine, they cost thousands, upon thousands of dollars and actually purchasing one just to have the satisfaction of training is annual balance sheet suicide.
Why would anyone do this?
Do you have any conclusive proof that ODs are more likely to practice in rural and underserved areas? I hear this argument with a lot of health professions seeking scope expansion, but once new privileges are granted, the new practitioners flock to the cities like everyone else. Is there any sort of break down in Oklahoma (being the official OD laser state) that shows a greater number of ODs performing laser procedures in rural/underserved areas compared to larger urban/suburban locales?
Why are you guys debating this stuff with a first year optometry student?
Yeah, most therapeutic lasers cost $60k+. ROI is not good at all, unless you are doing a lot of them.
As for your second question, it is well-known that the OK optometrists who laser are in the metropolitan, rather than rural areas. Same thing will happen in KY. That's another reason why the "access to care" argument has always been a joke. Seems to work on the politicians, though (as long as there's money in it for them).
.... Don't make your patients pay because you made a bad decision.
This is great.
In my humble opinion it is all a moot point. No intelligent person would let an optometrist use a laser or take a scalpel to any part of their body. With the vast amount of resources and information available to the general public(i.e. the internet) this will all be an issue for rural counties. Anyone with half a brain and the ability to look up information on ophthalmologists and optometrists know that optometrists should not be doing anything even remotely invasive.
If optometrists want to go to rural communities where there are no ophthalmologists, go ahead. The rest of the world is very aware of what they should and should not do.
Quite frankly, with the saturation of ophthalmologists in so many cities, optometrists are pretty useless. A certified ophthalmic technician can do everything that they do with ease. Unfortunately, insurance companies will not pay for an ophthalmologist to refract a patient. If they did, it would be game over. Imagine having a good technician refract patients all day and the ophthalmologist just pop in to confirm the results.
Why an optometrist/optometry student is so cocky is beyond me. You literally are the dumbest person in the room when it comes to this thread....and no, do not even try to compare an OD degree to an MD/DO degree. No one would buy any argument you would try to sell.
"You can guess that my lazy ass was NOT going that route" ... enough said. You have to earn the right to do certain things in the field of medicine and all you have earned is the right to sell me my glasses at Lens-Crafters. That is all.
"You can guess that my lazy ass was NOT going that route" ... enough said. You have to earn the right to do certain things in the field of medicine and all you have earned is the right to sell me my glasses at Lens-Crafters. That is all.
OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.
That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.
People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.
OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.
That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.
People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.
That's why optometric physician training is superior. .
OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.
That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.
People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.
Why do OMDs care so much about what ODs want to do with their own profession?
I mean, MDs are cool and all, but they are very far from being owners of other professions.
OK wise guy you should know as a physician that memory consolidation occurs at night. When you stress medical students and residents out and force them to lack sleep your efficiency of the training goes down immensely. So who cares if you do 80 hours a week when half of what you do doesn't stick.
That's why optometric physician training is superior. We start our focused training 5 years earlier, we do not kill (catabolize) our proteins by constant stress, and we have satisfactory memory consolidation because we have a normal sleep cycle. Efficiency over quantity.
People like you are the ones that constantly spit out that dentists aren't real doctors but they just laugh at you when all they have to do is 5 years of training to perform complicated bone surgery, administer general anaesthesia and receive great insurance reimbursements.
I've got to say. This is the funniest statement that I've read on this entire message board. And to MeibomianWantsToCutEveryEyeball, your patients must be happy knowing that you strive to become a lazy eye surgeon!
Patient: "Dr. Meibomian, I can't see jack sh** and my eye is on fire after the intracap that you did on me two days ago!"
Meibomian: "Sir, it's exactly 5:02 pm. I cannot come into the office right now to take a look at you. Come back on Monday and I'll figure out how to tap and inject you with something I read on an Internet optom blog."
It's really great that Meibomian and Shrunek are the faces of Optometry on the Internet. Their inane posts hopefully spur more of us OMDs to donate to our political advocacy groups and SCOPE.
I can tell you have never had to deal with private practice retina. 4pm is the cutoff around here, no exceptions...
I'm honest with myself. I did not have it in me to sacrifice being at home with my first newborn at 7pm all because some illegal immigrant with no insurance got dropped off at the hospital with his finger cut off. Nor do I find fulfillment in seeing peritomies performed. Just like you decided that cutting out cancers was not your thing. Or brain shunts. Or vasectomies. Etc.
My patients are happy to know that I am their eye doctor. And if that also includes some non-invasive procedures or lumps & bumps removal/injections, then they are quite fine with that.
Eye surgery was developed by ophthalmologists, not optometrists. The only way any optometrist can learn surgery is from an ophthalmologist. I would say we very much own that aspect of the profession. Glasses, contacts, general eye care: have at it.
Were you high when you wrote this?
Dr. Castillo, D.O.,O.D. is hooking us up: http://theoptometricproceduresinstitute.com/ODCE.TV/About_US.html
Eye surgery was developed by ophthalmologists, not optometrists. The only way any optometrist can learn surgery is from an ophthalmologist. I would say we very much own that aspect of the profession. Glasses, contacts, general eye care: have at it.
That's not a good reason honestly.
Lets just assume that the italians developed pizza for example. Nowadays, virtually anybody can open up a pizza shop/restaurant, even though Italians were the creators/developers of pizza. Same can be applied to OMDs and ODs with regards to surgery.
I think ODs, if the laws pass etc, will be thought by OMDs since ODs like you said don't know surgical procedures. So effectively, the OD is learning from the OMD - just without going to school for it.
I'm honest with myself. I did not have it in me to sacrifice being at home with my first newborn at 7pm all because some illegal immigrant with no insurance got dropped off at the hospital with his finger cut off.
Look: there is already an established route for eye surgery. It's called "Ophthalmology". If you are Pre-Optometry right now and want to do eye surgery, then just go to med school, Ophthalmology residency, and the regular established route.
I believe that any self-respecting Ophthalmologist would NEVER train an optometrist to do any sort of surgery. In fact, I think the ABO should immediately de-board any Ophthalmologist who does this.
Dr. Castillo, D.O.,O.D. is hooking us up: http://theoptometricproceduresinstitute.com/ODCE.TV/About_US.html
Seriously, could these Optometrists be misleading the public any more? Funny how they don't compare this "superior" training to a person who actually has undergone Ophthalmology residency/fellowship.
I love this whole "optometric physician" lingo that you guys are throwing around. You guys are NOT physicians. Live with it. Sheesh. You don't see us saying that we are "Doctors of Optometry"!
Agreed, but, why can't there be other alternatives,? As long standards and laws are maintained, it should be OK.
Personally, I would not want to perform surgery even if I could. Hence, why I will never attend medical school. But for those who say later on in their careers want to do surgery, and some sort of program is availible to teach them surgical procedures which must meet laws and standards etc, then I don't see why its a bad thing. I really don't.
If its because OMDs were the original developers of surgery, then that is simply a not good enough reason.
Not misleading. On the day of graduation from each respective school, optometrists have the most experience.
Medicare seems to disagree.
So you're okay with ophthalmic techs and opticians refracting and dispensing glasses right?
If they take 2 years of optics, learn refraction through a graduate school, but then they will get sued if they miss disease so they would have to learn how to pick that up too...o wait
Wait, why do you get to set the standards for opticians and techs? What if they decide they just want to refract and sell glasses, therefore a couple of weekend courses should suffice.
Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.
Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.
So you're okay with ophthalmic techs and opticians refracting and dispensing glasses right?
What? A weekend course to learn how to refract? That's absurd. But a weekend course to learn eye surgery? No problem right?
Lol here we go again. Optometrists take 4 years of pre-medical requirements, bio, chem, orgo, physics, AND extra microanatomy, psychology, biochemistry, anatomy and physiology requirements that for example are not required by osteopathic/allopathic schools. We take those advanced biology courses in college so we can spend more time on eyes in optometry school.
We practice lasers on pig eyes (just like ophthalmologists), we rotate through Oklahoma to practice on humans, so we have sufficient knowledge how to perform easy laser procedures. 32 hour course is not so absurd but to be honest I can't find it anywhere on google that it is really 32 hours. Its mostly just ophthalmologists saying it on articles making it seem like our whole education is 32 hours long, but no real proof I see yet. Maybe you could enlighten me. The law is not implemented yet and the educational requirement might change before it becomes implemented so don't get ahead of yourselves.
Lol here we go again. Optometrists take 4 years of pre-medical requirements, bio, chem, orgo, physics, AND extra microanatomy, psychology, biochemistry, anatomy and physiology requirements that for example are not required by osteopathic/allopathic schools. We take those advanced biology courses in college so we can spend more time on eyes in optometry school.
We practice lasers on pig eyes (just like ophthalmologists), we rotate through Oklahoma to practice on humans, so we have sufficient knowledge how to perform easy laser procedures. 32 hour course is not so absurd but to be honest I can't find it anywhere on google that it is really 32 hours. Its mostly just ophthalmologists saying it on articles making it seem like our whole education is 32 hours long, but no real proof I see yet. Maybe you could enlighten me. The law is not implemented yet and the educational requirement might change before it becomes implemented so don't get ahead of yourselves.
My point is that you want techs and opticians to go through the same education and training that optometrist do in order to refract. Yet when ophthalmologists insist on the same for ODs who want to perform surgery, you scoff at that idea, as if the 3 years and thousands of hours ophthalmologists spend learning the nuances of surgery mean nothing.
Really, a couple of weekend courses. And if people are overcorrected and/or get headaches because of prism by decentration or get accommodation spasms, that wouldn't be good for public health. Also the reason why ODs started expanding their rights into diagnosing diseases is because they would get sued successfully when they would miss things. So, if you refract in this country you have to know how to diagnose eye diseases as well which makes your "couple of weekend" courses point moot.
I can tell you have never had to deal with private practice retina. 4pm is the cutoff around here, no exceptions...
My patients are happy to know that I am their eye doctor. And if that also includes some non-invasive procedures or lumps & bumps removal/injections, then they are quite fine with that.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
At some point, this discussion had merit, and it's now degraded into Mei frolicking around about his 'lumps and bumps' and something about not wanting to go to medical school for racist, ER emergent purposes (despite the fact that he's openly admitted on the boards before that Optometry is not what he thought it would be and he'd go to medical school if Doc Brown presented the opportunity),
That's not a good reason honestly.
Lets just assume that the italians developed pizza for example. Nowadays, virtually anybody can open up a pizza shop/restaurant, even though Italians were the creators/developers of pizza. Same can be applied to OMDs and ODs with regards to surgery.
I think ODs, if the laws pass etc, will be thought by OMDs since ODs like you said don't know surgical procedures. So effectively, the OD is learning from the OMD - just without going to school for it.
Whoa! Someone's being a little hypocritical.
So you're allowed to take a weekend course to do surgery on one of the most sensitive parts of the body, but these techs and opticians can't take a weekend course to dispense glasses? Hmmm, seems like your rationale for letting ODs do surgery is breaking down.
It would be hilarious if this Optom movement to do surgery backfired in their faces...with techs and opticians doing all of the refractions and selling Gucchi glasses. Optoms would go extinct... FAST!
Jesus H Christ!!
For the love of all that is good and holy in the world, please please PLEASE won't someone close this thread?!?