Pros and Cons about Columbia and U Penn

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I am deciding whether I should put the deposit down in Columbia or U Penn. I would like to hear any pros/cons about Columbia and Penn. Please help me.
 
as i wrote in another thread:

Regarding facilities, mind you that PENN just has opened up a new state of the art 70,000 square feet Robert Schattner center. Granted, some of the facilities were old, but the school is historic. Over 125 years old. It could be a museum if you wanted it to be.

The school has their own Leon Levy Library for the dental school, alone. I haven't encountered a single other school that has their own dental library that houses only material for the dentist.

One of the students posted that most the curriculum is more medicine. Well, dentistry is a speciality of medicine. We are doctors of the oral cavity. We as future dentists need to know about systemic diseases that could progress to the oral cavity.
Some early symptoms arise throughout the body but can be detected with scrutiny with the naked eye in the oral cavity. For example, Candida albicans causes oral thrush and presence of oral thrush in the mouth illustrates immune deficiency, or HIV. A dentist must know what is going on there, not only in the mouth but in the entire body.

PENN requires every student to do 70 hours of community service before graduating as a graduation requirement. This emphasises philanthropy and giving back to the community, which each one of us must do. I believe in take a lot, but always give a little back.

PENN requires a 6 week hospital externship that can be done at affiliated hospitals(in USA) or over 30 destinations across the globe. I've heard of temple offering the Haiti trip, but PENN has organized these for their dental students.

PENN offers Primary Care Units (PCU) which are assignments that D3's receive that give the student a full eye view of all aspects of the general clinic that are located at various locations throughout the philly area. I personally went into a PCU and let me tell you the experience at a PCU is unique. it sure beats working in a huge clinic. It gives the student a feel for the private clinic.

PENN is the only school with its own journal: PENN Dental Journal. Which is the oldest of its kind.

I believe PENN is the only dental school with its own "Dental House." Here only dental students live. Also a faculty member is available as well. And a Lab is offered at all times of the day for your convenience.

Unlike other schools, i've noticed that PENN judiciously plans out the curriculum so it doesn't overlapp with boards. Many students U.Washington were complaining about having to go do their boards and then start taking finals. (Columbia people, this is you too.) Rather than starting out 10 classes at one time, PENN starts with five classes and in the middle begins the other five, while the first five end earlier and then the next five end. So only the few middle weeks you will have all ten classes together. (example), so that minimizes brain explosion.

PENN has a Summer Research Program, to give students a hands on feel of research. The dental school publishes well over 100 articles in major publications each year. PENN Is in the top five schools with the most NIH funding.

PENN has stringent competency expectations: which is a program that requires ALL students must demostrate IN ADDITION to individual department and course requirements which are divided into four categories:General Skills, Patient care competencies, Treatment, and Practice management.

Someone mentioned that you can see how much a school is worth by seeing if people donate back to it. There is no problem with donations at PENN. Dr. Schattner just donated 4,000,000 dollars (40,000 Benjamins) for the new center. With ample other donations exceeding $10,000. So if people are giving back that much money to this school, then definately it has given them something priceless that even money cannot repay.

A fulfilling future in dental medicine. Confidence to take a lot and give back to the community. Pride. passion for dentistry and community service. People are proud to go to this school and so am I.

Specialties? A couple of years ago there were 14 people who went into Ortho. No that is not a miss print, fourteen. At U.Washington rarely 2 people get into orthodontics. Only 5 people went straight to General practice. I don't know if I want to specialize, but it doesn't hurt to go to a school with such high caliber.

Dual degrees. PENN has options to get you M.S. Ed in the same time to get your DMD or your MPH. It's good to have options there.

So if you want a well rounded program. PENN is your solution. If you start worrying about money now, then you will always worry about money. It is a well known fact, that if you want to make money you must first lose money. Is 42,000 a year a lot. Of course it is. But in the long run it is a small price to pay to have a fulfilling career as a proud alumni of University of Pennsylvania School of Dental Medicine.

I say to you today, "Go in confidence or don't go at all." It is a proven fact that those people who are successful in life always think positive. So what if I'll be $250,000+ in debt, the more i'm sunk the more motivation i will have to make it back. People have done it before us, am I less competent then them? HECK NO!! I plan on making money when I graduate. Life is much more than just money. Other factors must overweigh money at times.



PENN DENTAL 007~ Bond, James Bond

DesiDentist


PENN: THE SCHOOL THAT LOVES YOU BACK!!!
 
I've defended PENN, does anyone out there want to defend Columbia. Let's see what you got. 😛

DesiDentist
 
I definitely agree with Desidentist about UPENN. In my opinion they will provide you a more balanced dental education in terms of didactics and clinical exposure. From reading many posts regarding Columbia, I sense that the school is skewed towards research than UPENN is. Interesting though...a friend of mine who is at Columbia tells me that they get very little clinical exposure the first 2 years and that there is a lot of emphasis on doing well didactically. Dentistry is what you make of it, but to be exposed to a balanced education is important so that you will be able to be prepared for whatever you might experience in the real world. Besides, both schools are expensive and ivy league so don't let those 2 things determine where you end up. Good luck.

AE
 
Do you guys have any stats Columbia and UPenn board scores?

Thanks a bunch,

Mocha 🙂
 
I have heard some bad comments about Columbia on this forum. For example, someone mentioned the clinical training in Columbia is weak, first two years are very difficult and more rigorous then the medical school counterpart. Are these rumors true???
 
According to my friend who is a D2 at Columbia: True.

She told me that students won't get real patients until 4th year. Ouch! How are you going to get enough clinical practice in 1 year and feel confident enough to go out into the real world? I guess that's why a majority of their students do a GPR or AEGD after graduation.
 
Hey ccss,

In my opinion I believe those rumors are true. I talked to numerous Columbia dental students 1st thru 4th years and the majority agree with what you mentioned.
 
DestiDen:

all I have to reply is NYC vs Philly....

AcidE: i don't know i am a first yr, but I talked to some 3rd yrs and some have 15+ patients...it's all about how much YOU want to do and how much work you put in....(at least that's what i think)


to everyone else:
so far, I find it pretty hard to fail out of columbia...(hopefully this won't change...)
 
Hey Stargirl:

Wasn't it you last year that was praying to get into PENN but you ran out of luck. You tried to avoid going to Columbia at all costs. I love philly, no city is like it.

nuff said!

DesiDentist
 
Oh yeah, I remember now! Interesting indeed.
 
I really can't beleive that people r being so childish and arguing about schools. In my opinion, it doesn't really matter where u go for for ur dental education, only thing that matters is how much effort u want to put into it. I think if ADA has accreditted the schools, then they have done it for some reason, they r just not going to accredit any school which is not compatible and which will not give good education. So please guys, u need to just focus on what u wanna do, and don't really think about schools, those r all very less of a controlling factors for ur dental studies....
Viraj
 
Alright guys, no need to take shots at each other....play nice. Can anyone direct me towards the board scores? Thanks
 
Alright guys, no need to take shots at each other....play nice. I'm still trying to find more information on board scores, is there a website/article/facts in the interview/acceptance packages?

Thanks 🙂
 
Viraj,

I agree with you, but I was merely making an observation. Nothing more nor less.
 
Originally posted by DesiDentist
juan,

why didn't you apply/interview at PENN. You would love it there for sure.

DesiDentist
Click to expand...

Hey Desi. The reason I didn't apply to PENN was mainly for cost reasons. I already had an early interview w/ Temple and also had to spend money going to New York and Boston. In addition, I was already missing alot of school with interviews. I'm sure I would've really liked that school.
 
hmm i hope you guys weren't referring to me about the school thing... =) it really doesn't matter to me... i'm already in and 1/2 way done w/ first yr =)
just giving suggestions...

desti~
yes i wanted to go to Penn cause it seemed like i would have the most chance of gettin in there w/ my b/f...

(we both got in and neither of us went...)

i did get in, in the end...(i interviewed really late for most schools and by the time I got around to Penn it was pretty much full...and was waitlisted for a while...) but when they offered me a spot I didn't take it for many personal reasons...(not having to do w/ the academics and rep of the school...which is totally awsome)

i am not saying that columbia's better or anything... it's all personal perference...

but a suggestion to anyone going to Philly...go check out the city...not the tourist stuff but drive around and stuff...

if i had to redo it again...from all the schools that i did get into (usc, penn, columbia, temple, nyu, bu, tufts..and a few more i can't remember anymore....) i would still w/o a second of hesitation (other than to think about the beautiful weather in southern Ca) i would come to columbia again....

but you gotta make the right choice for yourself... either school you go too, you'll find a lot of well qualified students....and whichever school you go too it's not going to be easy....)

okie time to sleep and wake up to a new day...

good luck
 
columbia's average board was 89....(at least top 5 in the nation each yr) and from what I hear the class was the "fun" class that hardly studied (and they still seem to have done fine on the boards)

(i believe ucla had a 91...but don't quote me)

i'm confident you'll do well if you came here and did some studying...

i'm having a blast...

ps...it doesn't matter what others got on the boards...it's really how you do that matters... an ave is just an ave...there's always people above and below =) just study hard and you'll be fine =)

good luck
 
Stargirl,

sorry for taking a shot at you. my humble apologies.

Viraj: It's a pride thing now. The Ivy's have this rivalry, even at PENN they talked about it. Just for fun ya know.


DesiDentist
 
Juan,

I think you would have gotten the minority or the Deans scholarship for sure. that would have been 50% tuition reduction and made it much more affordable (almost a 100,000 bucks off)

Stargirl: Andrew told me you didn't get into PENN and you were not so thrilled, just an observation I remembered.



DesiDentist
 
star, do you live on campus (bard hall)? if you do, could you tell me what i should expect? the size of the room, dining, etc. are first year students allowed to reside at the towers? thanks.
 
Penn es la bomba !! I've decided not to attend Penn,but i have the utmost respect for them...and ervyone else..


Go Gators !!
 
Hey Desi, what happened to UW? I thought that was your top choice and would have saved you lots of money?

Good luck at PENN!!!
 
Hey Ranman,

Yes, this was a surprising turn of events for me. After contemplating my life and where I would be the most happiest I realized that by staying here and attending the UW I would be miserable. The state has cut a ton of funding to the school which would mean that the students would suffer the most. PENN was my love all along. We just clicked the day I interviewed there. Granted, money was a huge issue, but I decided that if I want to do it and become a dentist, I want to do it right. PENN would be were I could be happy and confident that I would be getting the best dental education while being the most content with my life. I loved philly. I have family in NJ. My girl is in philly. So screw the money, and focus on life. Four years is a long time. I don't want to be miserable for all four of them. Also, getting out of the house was an important choice and I think will help me realize the real world and stand up on my feet. I'm sorry that you won't be attending PENN. I think your choice is strictly financial, since you seemed so excited about going there too. I wish you the best.

DesiDentist
 
Wow Desi,

I can't believe you turned down UW for UPENN. I've heard UW is very difficult to get into. UPENN is good, but don't get your expectations too high. My friend is in fourth year at UPENN and although he's enjoyed it he told me that the dental house sucks, the class has many cliques and due to the grading system things can get pretty competitive, even among friends, because everybody wants to specialize. I still think it's probably the best private school out there, but UW's reputation is comparable to UPENN and it's tuition is significantly lower.

Anyhow, good luck at UPENN - I'm sure you'll have a good time.
 
Ranman,

hearing things and seeing things are two different things. I've worked at the clinics at UW for years, I know almost the entire D1 class, I know over 80 applicants who are applying this year. You could have heard all sorts of things about UW, but one thing is for sure: it isn't cut out to be #1.

PENN, granted I know there will be some problems. But at least I will feel like a new beginning there. Competition is eminent in every dental school. There is a thing called competition and then there is a thing called hostility. From my experience at PENN the competition is not hostility. At UW that is a different story.

DesiDentist
 
DesiDentist, I hope Penn lives up to all of your expectations.

You need to realize the school doesn't make the dentist. Your experience at any school will only be as good as you make it. Many people on this forum seem to believe that the dental school you attend is going to make a difference when you graduate and enter the field of dentistry. Granted Penn will offer a majority of its students the opportunity to specialize. However if you attend other schools and want to specialize it is definitely possible. The one thing that you will reflect upon ten years after dental school is the amount of debt you still have. Many people opt to attend state school knowing that they will minimize their debt and will still be able to specialize if they desire and put the effort in.
 
Whose talking about specializing? I never even mentioned specializing yet. I will see if that opportunity is out there for me after I take my NDBE Part I. I'm going to take it one step at a time. I'm going to PENN not because it is ivy league, but because it gave me the best feeling and for various personal reasons as well. I was confident that I will learn everything I need to succeed there. They teach dentistry as a specialty of medicine, unlike a trade by itself.

The only expectations I have at PENN is that they will treat me right and I will have a solid foundation of dentistry and a vast amount of opportunities afterward.

And about debt:

Remember that PENN is gonna pay your interest for four years while you are in school. So goin to Temple or NOVA would have cost me the same in the long run. UW would have cost me 185,000 with interest that makes PENN only 50,000 more, which isn't much if you think about the amount I will be making in my 35+ year career. I was scared about the debt and I went into the Dean of Student Affairs office and asked her about the debt and she said that upto date 98% of the alumni are debt free after 6-7 years. She even showed me data that proved that so. I'll be 25 when I get out of dental school, so I'll think about debt then.

DesiDentist
 
desti...
i actually got into PENN ON THE way to Philly w/ my b/f ... and didn't go there for many reasons but none having to do w/ the status of the school. Penn would have offered me an awsome education but it wasn't the right place for me.

When I applied, Columbia was my first out of state choice and it always was, but because my b/f didn't apply to columbia, I kinda pushed it to the backburner...and thought Penn might be the place for me. Dental school's a very very personal thing and you'll realize that everyone has different reasons on why they decided on the school they attend.

You should becareful of the things you say to people. I understand you're proud that you're going to Penn as you should be but there's no excuse on belittling any school. Any dental school will ultimately get us where we want to be and no one's to say which schools better. You'll realize that dental school's not easy anywhere you go.

I'm already at the Ivy's. I see absolutely NO rivary at all. I don't think Penn or any other school has ever came up in my or anyone's conversations other than to state the fact that we got into them or we applied to them.

I'm glad that you'll be where your g/f is cause honestly that's important and it'll make it that much easier for you once school starts.
 
S-Type

i live in bard...
i am getting use to it...the towers are a little better...it's more apartment like...but there's not as many students that live in them and you'll meet more people living in bard first yr.

It'll all just come together... you'll just get use to sharing a bathroom etc etc.

Just have fun while you can (now) and try to take Anatomy, Histo, Neurosci, Human Development, Biochem....etc etc ifyou can to make your life a lot easier...
good luck...
i don't think I'll be coming back to SDN for a while so if you need anything or have more questions feel free to email me and I'll try to get back to you.

good luck and see you in Aug =)
 
Just spoke to a third-year at Columbia...This student said she'd done some scaling, one amalgam, and one resin so far. And she is AHEAD of the rest of the class! Teachers tell them it is ok if the third years haven't placed a restoration yet.

As a third year at another school, I would have failed first semester already and be well on my way to failing this semester if that's all my clinical experience had been so far.

Columbia takes all of its sciences with the med students first and second year, so little clinical exposure during the first two years I can understand. But...if you're not doing hands-on dentistry by second semester of third year, what the heck are they doing there during third year?

I guess if you are commited to doing a residency in general dentistry after dental school, then this school is fine for you. Even if a large amount of the class goes on to specialize, how can they have an understanding of what you like and don't like if you don't clinically experience the specialties during your third year? Reading the book for removable dentures and taking exams on it is very different from constructing actual dentures for a patient. And you need to have a good understanding of general dentistry no matter which specialty you tackle, because you will deal with aspects of other specialties in your field.

Some might disagree, but I see so little clinical exposure as a con for this school.
 
Hi griffin:

What do you think about PENN? You seem to know alot about schools. I believe I did my research and I think PENN really tries to incorporate not only basic sciences but the clnical side of things as well. During the second part of first year you are spending over 330 hours in Lab doing preps etc. I dunno, but might be interested in your thoughts on this school

DesiDentist
 
check out the curriculum schedules at columbia website. D1-D4. don't understand why people think there is so little clinical exposure. look at the schedules from week 1 of D1 to the last week of D4. third and fourth years are basically all clinical. However, yes, first two years are didactic and tons of lab works.
 
I've learned a lot about dental schools other than mine through my experiences with ASDA. I highly encourage all of you pre-dents to get involved with ASDA and organized dentistry when you start dental school.

Honestly, I don't know too much about Penn. I visited there many years ago and was not impressed by the clinical facilities, but if they are building a new dental clinic then that problem is solved. Some of my current classmates had considered Penn but turned it down due to cost (state vs private). I plan on visiting Penn again this summer when I start looking into post-grad options.

I will be attending an ASDA function next month where there will definitely be Penn students. If I learn anything interesting there, I'll let you know.
 
Grif~
that's interesting...as i sit here my 2nd week of my second semester and I'm studying for tomorrow's project which is the beginning of a partial denture...

the curriculum has changed quite a bit...and as each year goes by we're become more and more clinical...and if you know anything about NYC... you'll realize how important a GPR can be and that it'll replace taking state boards....

it's all about the motivation....how much you put in is how much you'll get out of it...
 
Star Girl, I think you misunderstood me. The third year student at your school has done one amalgam and one resin restoration on two real patients. When I said clinical, I meant doing procedures for real patients, not doing them in the pre-clinic laboratory (which is what you are probably doing with your partial). We all get the pre-clinic training, but it is something else to do it on a real patient. I made two partials last semester for a patient and it was very different from when we did them in pre-clinic in second-year.

Yes, it is hard to get a job in NYC and even a lot of the Northeast without having a GPR under your belt. I am aware of that. And even though I'm in a NY state dental school and actually from NY state, I still plan on taking the NERBs (clinical exam). NY is currently the ONLY state that allows you to substitue a GPR in place of the NERBs. I may end up with a job in NJ or Connecticut or Pennsylvania or Mass. after I finish a GPR and be stuck in NY because those states still require the NERB, so I'll play it safe and take them.

type-s - I did look at the third year's schedule on the website. It looks like they are in the clinic about 2 days per week, not a bad amount of time. I'm just curious what they do during that time in clinic if the majority of the third year class has yet to do any restorations on real patients.
 
Grif...
just wondering what school are you at?

i really think that columbia clinical really depends on the motivation of the person... if you're willing to put more hours into clinic during 3rd yr then you'll have plenty of clinical experience...

you're right our 3rd year is our "easy" year as compared to the other 3...but it really depends on the person...

well...maybe i am biased also since my class is just AWSOME and we're all having so much fun and so little competition...it's really "not" normal from what I hear...

I'm only a 1st year, what do I know... give me 2.5 years and I'll tell you what I think of the clinical aspect of the school...

I love it here... the only thing that could make it better is if my b/f was here too....

(Go Bruins...still one at heart)
 
I interviewed at Penn last year and was not so happy with it. I guess if they built new clinics they solved one huge, ugly, outdated problem...the other was the pre-clinical labs which are basically in a dungeon with exposed pipe/ventilation shafts, etc. on the ceiling. The people there said "yeah, you just kind of get used to it". That didn't sit too well with me, especially compared to other schools at which I interviewed, like UNC and UConn, which were beautiful (UConn is where I am now), and which both cost around $100,000 less. That is a lot of zeroes, and it doesnt seem like you gain much from paying more. I liked Philadelphia. It seemed more cool than most downtowns I visited, and that area is at least safer than Temple.

I think that the characterization of the debt not being a problem is totally false. The reason why most people are debt free soon after school is that most people there have it paid for by some other means that straight loans. Think about the ramifications of trying to pay off a quarter million dollars in 6-7 years. Think about it. The typical grad. only makes about 75-85K as an associate for the first few years (even less if you try to open your own practice) and you are going to:

1)move (probably)
2)buy/rent a house/condo
3)maybe think about marriage/kids
4)maybe start a practice
5)also pay off a $250,000 loan???

Not going to happen unless you are independently wealthy. Even if the monthly payments are based upon 4% interest (super super low), they would be about $4000 PER MONTH!! That is ONLY your dental loans...NOT a house, car, or anything else. To put it in perspective, nearly all people take out a THIRTY year loan to pay for a $250,000 house!!!

Please think about this...it will be tough to get out from under that loan burden until you are FAR into your practice life, and if you specialize...just add more into it because you will be even older when you finally pay it off due to the extra years of school. It is doable (done all the time), but unless you have a great deal of money, it will make your years directly after school very difficult. It is easy to look at it from the outside and not worry, but when you have a quarter of a million dollars on your head, the going will get a bit tougher. I just urge you guys to be careful jumping into that kind of commitment unless you can afford it or you have to. I'm not saying Penn is a bad school...besides the facilities last year, it seemed pretty nice and they do place a decent amount of their students in their specialties...but...just weigh both sides!!
 
Originally posted by JonR
Even if the monthly payments are based upon 4% interest (super super low), they would be about $4000 PER MONTH!! That is ONLY your dental loans...NOT a house, car, or anything else. To put it in perspective, nearly all people take out a THIRTY year loan to pay for a $250,000 house!!!
Click to expand...

JonR:

With all due respect. If I have a 30 year loan and paying $4,000 a month that means i'm paying 48,000 dollars a year x 30 = $1,440,000. Do you really expect me to believe that I will be oweing $1,440,000?? My parents house was around $250,000 and we have at 30 year loan and are paying a little over $1,000 a month.
C'mon quit scaring everyone with your exaggerated numbers.

Also let me tell you a little more about PENN's loan program. PENN will be paying our interest for the four years that we will be in school. So our 250,000 debt will remain 250,000 when we come out. The interest will not start compounding until we graduate. If you go to a school that will cost you 180,000 (pretty comparable to other private schools like Temple, NOVA, etc. with interest that will be at least 250,000 if not more.

If it was impossible to do they would think twice about charging you that. PENN, like other schools, is all about its reputation, if all of their alumni go into default with their loans then no one would go there. A school has to prove that their alumni could be successful and pay off their loans. In fact their alumni's are donating more back to the school than any other school. Check their donations list.

PENN just built a new 70,000 square foot clinical center. Also, they have 6 private clinics (where the 3rd year students practice) They don't show you those in the tour.

The best way to do it is to take a 30 year loan so your payments are around 1,300 a month and pay more so you can eliminate it in 6-8 years.

$4,000 a month for 30 years.gimme a break!!!!

DesiDentist
 
I understand you are feeling put on the defensive, but please do not attack until you have carefully read what someone posts.

If you read my post more carefully, you will see that what the $4,000/month figure is referring to is the amount required to pay off a $250,000 loan at 4% interest in 6 years (which is when you said 98% of the alumni are debt-free).

If you want to be debt free in 6 years (as you say 98% are), you will have to pay $4,000 per month.

THAT is not some made up number, but it is quite staggering, isn't it? $48,000 per year. Considerably more than half of your NET earnings as a starting general dentist...and that is only if you do general dentistry right out of Penn (which very few do). If you specialize and defer, they stop subsidizing the interest and after a good 3-4 years, that $250K could easily pass the $350K mark before you've even seen your first patient.

Move, buy a cheaper condo, a newer used car, and furnish your place and you're already a half a million dollars in the hole. Then you're talking 3K/month just to get it paid off by the time you're 50. And if you buy into a practice (which eventually you HAVE to do if you want to retire) add another few hundred thousand dollars to that $500K.

Believe me, I wouldn't make this up. I did the math too, and it's scary just how much debt you can accrue from a private school. If you don't have another means of paying off the debt, how in the world can you pay off all of this in "a few years"?? Just trying to inject some reality here...

I know some of you at private schools will take this personally, but look, lets just address the facts. I don't think you're idiots or something, I just want people to see it from the other side.
 
i'm glad I got into my state school.. 😡 :laugh:
 
i agree, but remember not everyone is privelidged to choose a cheap education. However, good organization, and diligent planning are a key to success. A person who only has a $50,000 loan opposed to a 250,000 loan can also default. However, this crowd on SDN seems to be on their toes. I've already have a financial planner. I will not give up PENN over any other school because I feel that it is the school for me.

Regards,

DesiDentist
 
hey jam, what school did u decide on?
 
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